: A Gran Turismo Op-Ed: A Massive Rant About Racing Sims

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A Gran Turismo Op-Ed: A Massive Rant About Racing Sims

I figured instead of writing a reply in the comments section to Ben's Gran Turismo op-ed, I'd piece an article of my own. As someone who is an absolute gearhead, and who's favorite genre is non other than the one in question, I'd also like to see the collective bunch behind Forza (this includes MS, and developer Turn 10) stop with the finger wagging, too. I've owned the original Forza, and thought it was rubbish. It's tire-model felt like every car had no weight; in other words, the feedback between the gamer and game was poor.

Forza 2 was the first Xbox 360 game that made me consider an Xbox 360, despite the absurd amount of problems the console was experiencing two years ago. I convinced a friend of mine to let me borrow his X360 while he was away and spent a good amount of time with a rented copy of Forza 2. Once again, I walked away extremely unimpressed. Yet again, the tire-model felt numb and lacked any feedback between you and the game. I had also rented Project Gotham 3 and found myself having a lot more fun with it than Forza 2.

So to see the folks behind Forza say that GT dropped the ball is beyond me. What ball did Polyphony drop? The ball that professional racers actually use to practice with? The ball that professional drivers have replicated their real-life lap times with? The ball that professional drivers repeatedly claim to be the most accurate console simulator? And when did Turn 10 pick up this proverbial ball? Last I checked, Forza has yet to make a dent in the automotive industry as a whole, like Kazunori Yamauchi and Polyphony have with GT. They've made no impact.

And you know what? Even if you take Gran Turismo out of the equation, Forza still fails and is still without that so called "ball." Because there's still the PC's GTR2, which, up until GT5 Prologue, was unparalleled. Having sampled GTR2 numerous times, I can attest that it trumped GT4 wildly back in 2006. Granted GTR2 is a different beast than GT4 was, but when you compare the nutty high-powered machines of GT4 to the offerings of GTR2, you'll find that the Gran Turismo cars were far too easy too control in contrast to GTR2. Polyphony has admitted as much, and with GT5 Prologue, the professional physics pretty much replicate the same madness that could be found in GTR2. I mean really, keeping a Ferrari F1 car under control is downright painful in GT5 Prologue, where as in GT3, for example, driving an F1 was like eating cake.

Having spoken to a few folk who've gone hands-on with Forza 3, it looks like Forza isn't picking up any balls, and with Need for Speed: SHIFT already looking and playing as superbly as it does, Forza's 400 cars doesn't mean much to me if it's tire-model still feels like driving a Mercedes Benz E-Class...numb. And did I mention that NFS: SHIFT is actually developed by the gang who brought us GTR2? And that it utilizes much of the technology that made their past racers so utterly fantastic, but enhanced for the next-gen world? Well, if you didn't know, now you do. I'll also be getting the chance to play a nearly finished version of NFS: SHIFT in about a month just to see the progress of it.

As some of you may know, I've already played NFS: SHIFT months ago, and even in its very early stage, the game was extremely satisfying. It's the best damn Need for Speed I've ever played, and what I played was merely an incomplete build that only had a small sampling of cars and tracks. The physics engine was down tight, the feedback was absolutely superb, and the visceral feel was there thanks to the visuals and the menacing audio. So quite frankly, Turn 10 needs to keep it to themselves, because there's a good chance that it's not Gran Turismo that'll embarrass their sim, but also Need for Speed, the competitor they'd never expect.

Then of course, we can get down to another aspect of Forza that I've always hated - the visuals. Everything in Forza games is over saturated with color. People claim, "well, GT looks dull." Well, realism is simply dull, what can I say? The colors are always too rich in the game, and from what we've seen, Forza 3 is no different. The lighting continues to suffer too, once again, a trait that Gran Turismo has historically been known to nail. And a trait that has widely been associated with the realistic look of the Gran Turismo series. And sure, visuals may not be the most important thing, but in racing games that are aiming - or claiming - to depict the highest realism possible, they sure as hell are.

A couple of days ago in a Neo-GAF thread, somebody was making the same old and tired "no damage = not realism" claim that GT-haters often do. Well, I figured, perhaps I'd include my tongue-in-cheek response to that general audience, with the profanity mildly censored:

"To be perfectly honest, I think Kaz should implement a mode like this for sh**s and giggles just to fu** with those who have always put GT down for not being a "true" sim. Their should be a:

  • Hardcode Mode - You will be monetarily penalized for every bump, scrape, and damage your car encounters. If your car is totaled, you will not be allowed to fix it and have to spend all of that money again to buy and re-mod it. Basically, the mode that'll make you pull your hair out from having to grind, grind, grind a 5-lap Daytona race for 5000Cr.
  • Real Life Mode - You crash hard enough, you get injured and your money depletes to zero for medical bills and you can't play your game until your virtual character heals. Or you crash fast enough, you die. A KazHiraiLaugh.gif rolls and so do the credits. End of game, please play again.
  • Normal Mode - Regular GT gameplay, with basic damage model with affect on performance."

I think the above is pretty apt to the topic at hand, because most people who claim that GT has "dropped the ball" are largely poking at the series' lack of a damage model. We know now that there will be damage in some form, but Yamauchi has repeatedly stated that if he were to do a damage model, he'd like to do one as realistic as possible, and not a half-assed one that every other racer employs. Hell, a love tap in NYC can bend a hood, damage fenders, and crack a bumper...and you mean to tell me that it takes a 40MPH hit in a realistic racing "sim" for half of that to happen?

Furthermore, in that VideoGamer piece Dan Greenawalt (the man who made the "dropped the ball" statement) said "We watched the Sony press conference and we were like, OK so we just brought what we believe firmly is the best racing game ever made, and our competition didn’t show up. So now you can see why I’m fairly bullish. I hate to sound so cocky but the truth is the stars have aligned. I don’t know how else to say it."

The competition didn't show up? He makes it seem as if Polyphony is scared or something. The reason why GT5 wasn't playable at the show, and everybody knows this now, is because Yamauchi and Sony didn't want the game stealing the thunder away from the PSP's Gran Turismo. Yamauchi later went on to say that GT5 is basically complete and that they can release it anytime they wish, but are using the time to polish the game some more. So, Mr. Greenawalt, don't flatter yourself, the competition didn't show because they didn't need to. Just like how the Chicago Bulls didn't need to practice all the time in the 90s and yet, they continued to win championships.

I have little doubt that GT5 won't make it before the end of 2009, Sony is simply giving the PSP version some limelight before letting it be known that GT5 is also a 2009 game. I also didn't write this to defend Gran Turismo, in fact, there are a number of things I'm hoping to see in GT5 that were never present in the past games, including GT5 Prologue.

For example, selecting between automatic and manual transmissions. In a lot of cars, there are different gear ratios and even a different amount of gears between transmissions. An easy example is a 350Z, which is a 5-speed automatic and a 6-speed manual. In my opinion, if you choose an auto, you should face the penalty of missing a speed, taller gears, and the adverse effect on top-speed. Another example, again with the transmissions, is cars such as the Audi R8 boast automatic transmissions that are extremely different than a conventional automatic with a torque-converter, in that the R8 features a DSG gearbox that has two clutches automatically engaging with every flick of your wrist. How these Dual Clutch Transmissions work is one clutch operates gears 1-3-5, while the other 2-4-6. So when you're in first gear, the second clutch is already there with the second gear just waiting to be electronically activated, basically.

So why is this important to me? Well, when I pick my R8, I want to drive the car with the DSG transmission for its seamless and lighting fast shifts. After all, every split second counts in a race, and a lot of time is lost in shifting as the clutch engages, the shift is thrown, and the clutch disengages, and that translates to a slower shift no matter what transmission setting you choose in the game. The same applies to the E92 BMW M3, which is a manual transmission by default in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue, and so cannot be driven with using its DCT transmission. Oddly enough, the Nissan 370GT (America's Infiniti G37 Coupe) comes only as a 5-speed automatic in Gran Turismo, despite having a 6-speed variant in real life. Odd.

I've always thought of this as the one glaring error in the GT franchise. But who knows, with 600 cars, perhaps some of those cars, like the Audi R8 and BMW M3, will simply be the same two vehicles offered with different transmissions. After all, once you buy a car, you buy a specific vehicle with a specific transmission, so switching at any time you wish would make little sense.

Furthermore, the tuning aspect of GT5 needs to be overhauled over GT4, because there are some really key components missing. For starters, a dyno, which to date has only been featured in Need for Speed: Underground 2 (poorly, might I add), is a must here. GT4 showed power graphs with a respective curve for both horsepower and torque, but it never showed you how much power you were actually putting down to the wheels - you got crank and brake figures only, which aren't realistic or true. Other tuning aspects I'd like to see is dialing in spark plugs, turning them hotter and colder, in addition to being able to toy around with forced induction by increasing boost/PSI. And hey, when you buy an ECU/engine management unit, include the ability to enable ECU maps that have the car running on 100 octane and making power from it, as well. And make sure to sell that 100 octane, since that stuff costs nearly $7 per gallon in real-life, anyways. Also, fix the weight reduction inconsistencies - in GT4 a stage 1 weight reduction removed the backseat...but my Lotus and 350Z don't have backseats.

Let's see, what else? Ah, tire-pressure. It's a pivotal aspect, and dammit, I want to be able to set my own settings to control grip vs. longevity myself. Changing tires and rims should also not be a purely cosmetic function, because it isn't in real life. A lightweight tire and rim can go a long way in gaining acceleration and braking power, at the expense of worse traction off the line. And instead of just offering a type of tire, allow us to choose the width and tire profile for grip and tire flex, and of course, have the gamer endure the consequences for choosing, say, an extra wide 305mm tire.

It's 3AM, and I feel like I'm beginning to ramble here. And there are probably tons of other aspects I can bitch about relating to Gran Turismo. The reason why this article came out so long was because earlier on today, I had originally only intended on writing a piece that only pointed out the faults with GT and what the series needs. With Turn 10's statement, it turned into one mammoth rant, one that I hope doesn't fall onto deaf ears (both you guys and Sony). The point here was not to make Gran Turismo shine like a beauty queen, because as you can see I have expressed a full list of disappointments with the series that I've yet to see addressed, and I wasn't even done.

The point, rather, was to simply...rant, I guess. Hahahaha.

Okay, dammit, I came back to edit this article after closing it. I want to add one more thing. When using the Logitech G25 or anything else with a clutch, please Polyphony, give us proper clutch engagement, including stalling a car. When you gradually release the clutch on a real car the torque will slowly begin moving it forward, in some instances. GT5 Prologue doesn't do this. Also, when you release the clutch sharply, the car doesn't lurch to let you know that you've stalled. It's the little things that matter most.

Okay, now I'm really done.

6/10/2009 Arnold Katayev

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Comments (64 posts)

JackKnifeZero
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:32:54 AM
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wow...simply...wow

I'm going to bed...great read though

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Xra897
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 6:31:53 PM

agreed

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John Shoemaker
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:33:06 AM
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Haha.
Very good.
*clap*

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JackKnifeZero
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:34:33 AM
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Also...I agree pretty much 100%

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kevyd09
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:36:01 AM
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wow!! what a rant!!! but im sure that there will be some of what you asked for in the game and that is why it has taken so long to perfect!

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fluffer nutter
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:36:09 AM
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Very well put and I don't disagree with anything there. There are a lot of things missing from the Gran Turismo series and I remember when Kaz stated that the GT series was at 10 - 12% of his total vision. I've already pre-ordered NFS: Shift direct from EA and can't wait to get my hands on that goodness. Now, I just need to get me a racing wheel to expand my joy.

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HOODGE
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:37:59 AM
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Great article Arnold. I definately expect your article and Bens earlier to show up on the Playstation Blog under "What we've been reading", every Sunday night so others can read this stuff.

Yes it is sad that MS and Turn 10 acted that way, but you know on the other hand I'm sure Yamaguchi got to see their game up close at E3 and within seconds of seeing it running at the demo booth probably walked away unimpressed. It would be neat to be there if Yamaguchi and Greenwalt met face to face at his Forza 3 - 3 screen demo booth with onlookers trying out the FM3 demo. I'd like to have heard the conversation. I'm sure Yamaguchi would of been professional in his approach and congratulate Dan Greenwalt on his game, and then after he left good ol Greenwalt probably would tear a strip out of him.

Sorry guys don't flame me, but the other night I was playing FM2 on my 360 and I got talking with some of the guys in my online lobby and one guy said, "Ya I heard that Polyphony Digital was at Microsofts demo booth at E3 and they were amazed at what they saw and asked how did they do that." What a crock of S**T!! I kindly said where he had heard that and he couldn't even give me an answer. Then I said to him that is the lamest rumour that could ever be out there. No way is Yamaguchi gonna ask some smaller developer how he did that. I found that funny and thought I'd share that with you.

I'm looking forward to Need for Speed Shift if it was the GT2 game from Simbin developers. Even Simbins 360 racer Race Pro blows FM2 away with the amazing physics engine they have. Along with the GT series, Race Pro is the best physics engine I've felt in a long time on the 360. I think it will probably still be better than FM3's physics. But we'll see.

So what I see is a lot of competition out there and I guess the heat is on the Forza team to produce and they know what they are up against. Sounds like desperate measures tho to flame everyone else especially Polyphony Digital in saying that they handed him the ball tho. Oh well he started the war, we'll see who wins. Sometimes it's painful tho when you have to eat your words and it can be downright embarrasing as well. Seems to be what Microsoft is good at these days.

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JackKnifeZero
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:49:02 AM
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Oh one more thing....if Poly put everything you wanted into GT5 I think I might have to get my own personal pit crew or something to help me customize my car for ultimate performance b/c I had no idea what you were talking about for the most part:)

Anyway...looking forward to both GT5 and NFS: SHIFT.

Last edited by JackKnifeZero on 6/10/2009 4:49:31 AM

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Jed
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 11:52:49 PM

I know what you mean man.

I remember playing GT2 with my brother. He is a real gearhead. He would take the car and fix it up and make all kind of changes then I would go do the races. It was awesome.

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chicko1983
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 4:49:34 AM
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nice article but I can't drive a manual transmission in these games, Im not serious enough to spend time learning how to do it as well as I can drive with an auto transmission (probably cause I am pretty good with auto if I do say so myself, hehe).

I hope GT5 comes out this year, GT is one of the few game I can play for hours at a time even after I have completed everything. It has the best replay-ability of any game for mine.

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HOODGE
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:06:28 AM
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Oh I forgot to mention that earlier on yesterday I read an article on the JoyStiq website of an interview with Dan Greenwalt of Turn 10 and he uttered another shot at Polyphony digital in saying, "I respect Kazori Yamaguchi's (don't know how to spell it) genius in the racing industry. When I was younger Gran Turismo inspired me on which car I wanted to buy, so it was the foundation for me. But times have changed and I feel that Yamaguchi has tossed us the baton in being the leaders of sim raceing development. It's like his franchise is now becoming old school in my mind."

What an ass!! I don't know where this Dan Greenwalt gets off saying things like this about Yamaguchi. He just comes off as downright rude and "I'm right, I'm right!", kinda like a little kid or something. Grow up bud.

Well get you're product out and enjoy the moments as when GT5 comes out it is gonna embarrase the living S**T out of you. I'm sure every 360 fanboy will buy the game and then see how much better GT5 will be and opt for a PS3. Theres no doubting it.

Last edited by HOODGE on 6/10/2009 5:08:19 AM

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Malebaria
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:11:32 AM
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Nice one Arnold!

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BlinkBoy
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:25:05 AM
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I read almost everything, and I must say more of these Arnold, more of these.

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OriginalSin
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:41:49 AM
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Nice article Arnold!

All I say is I hope Sony release GT5 on the very same day as Forza and let's see how they go head to head.... Within a day GT5 would've "lapped" Forza a couple of times....

It seems that M$ has nothing left in their camp, so they turn to throwing cheap punches like this... I say bring it, not only with GT5 in our camp but so many other games that we have and they never will.... I think we can be pretty sure who's really in control and who "...dropped the ball..."

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b3mike
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:51:59 AM
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Just ignore the Xbot gibberish. You can only polish a 8.5gb turd so often, but in the end it is still a turd

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Victor321
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 6:58:39 AM
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That was a mix of a rant and a professionally written article lol =D

You guys are too good at this job.

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Xanavi23
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 7:11:02 AM
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As usual Arnold, you fail to to disappoint me. That was a hell of an Op-Ed article and also a hell of a reply to Greenwalts idiocy.

You were dead on everywhere from Forza's weak physics to their over-"colored" visuals that looked fake to me as soon as i saw Forza 3 screens.

Personally i think he knows his product is still S*** and as such is trying to make up for it by spewing garbage.

Like you said PD didn't show up because they didn't need to, they didn't show up because Prologue is still a masterpiece..

Dammit Greenwalt, now you got me running hot laps before work.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 3:01:36 PM

I wondered why F3 looked so damned cartoony at E3, Arnold makes a good point on the color.

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Xanavi23
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 9:20:36 PM

Ya, i could never put my finger on it until Arnold wrote on it.

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Mamills
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 7:20:42 AM
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well said, good rant
and dun worry i saw the forza interview
GT5 has nothing to worry about from them
im excited for need for speed shift though

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migabyte
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 8:51:44 AM
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I guess you could say that they dropped the ball because it's been like 5 years since they put out a GT game, but that doesn't mean that they can't pick it back up (especially if we are playing rugby).

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LegendaryWolfeh
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 8:55:31 AM
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actually there'll be at least 800 cars =D

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mastiffchild
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 9:17:52 AM
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Greenawalt has behaved like a tool, imo, and not the sharpest one in the box at that. I actually like Forza 2 better than most racing games but this attitude of were the "definitive " this and PD have "dropped the ball" and "handed us the baton" is arrogant in the extreme.

When Greeny(as I will now call him)thinks about his behaviour I pray he's embarrassed by his conceit-ig it weren't for PD and Yamauchi he probably wouldn't have got to make his own game-they opened the door for this kind of thing.

And if you wish to be definitive you have to prove it by trumping the opposition , not just at one thing(with Forza3 probably paint job mods)but at most(number of cars, cars on track, number of tracks, physics, altered physics from damage/mods, gfx, res, FPS etc, etc)if bot all of them. I would like to wish him luck but til he stops being a douche I will no longer buy his games.

I waited a while after PS3 launch as I was pi55ed at Sony for their arrogance and it was only when they toned it down shortly afterwards that I finally got a PS3-the press, rightly, were all over them as were the 360 fans. They despised the presumptions ansd arrogance then but now this seems to just be "business" from Greeny and T10/MS.

Last edited by mastiffchild on 6/10/2009 9:34:10 AM

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CH1N00K
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 9:40:21 AM
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Nice rant Arnold. I had forgotten about NFS:Shift. Didn't realize that they were doing that good of a job with it. Whenever I think Need for speed I always think arcade style racing, because their shots at Sim racing so far haven't been very good. I may have to check this one out, maybe...lol.

Nice to see you kept it objective with pointing out that GT isn't perfect either. I think it will be a long ways off before we actually see a perfect simulator. And when it does come out, it will be a $20 000 piece of software used to train actual race car drivers, because the general public won't want to play it. It will be too real.

That's just my opinion though. Either way, once GT5 launches, I'm pretty sure no matter what MS says, they aren't going to be able to back it up.

MS is nervous right now, they thought they were going to learn some of Polyphony's secrets that they could steal for the next attempt. But Polyphony left the competition in the dark and focused on the PSP instead. Now MS is going to have to try and come up with Forza 3 and 4 with no idea how they stack up against GT5. And they are freaking out!..lol

Last edited by CH1N00K on 6/10/2009 9:41:24 AM

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BikerSaint
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:38:30 PM

@Chinook,

Can you imagine it?
The whole T10 team's being spotted in GameStop, buying out EVERY PSP there......
just so they'll have some proper directions in the making of their own game.


Last edited by BikerSaint on 6/10/2009 5:40:29 PM

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Naga
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 10:07:38 AM
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Forza 2 was horrible I can't believe it's considered a racing simulator more like arcade. So Forza 3 would be no different.

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Jawknee
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 10:38:29 AM
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Greenwalt is taking pointers from Greenburg aka the Toad. GT PSP looks better then Forza 3. i wasnt impressed at all with M$ line up. Forza encluded.

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coverton341
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 1:24:18 PM

I was actually excited about Mass Effect 2 (which regardless of multiplat or not I will get on 360....because of game carry over) and I was also intrigued by Alan Wake. You have to admit even if you don't like the company they did bring SOME good stuff, just not nearly as much as Sony did.

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Skatejimmy5
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 11:07:56 AM
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Amazing article, for sure. I've never played GT5 Prologue, but I can pretty much guarantee by the videos that GT5 will rule all, NFS Shift being just one step behind, maybe even equal (somewhat doubtful).

Also, as a gearhead as myself, I actually understood all of that gearbox talk, which I believe a lot of readers didn't.

;-)

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dveisalive
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 12:02:47 PM
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Grand Turismo is the greatest racing Sim series PERIOD!

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SaintX
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 1:12:28 PM
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Hey guys, i was reading an article over at ps3cetner.net. heres the link, i think everyone should take a look at this.
http://www.ps3center.net/news/3173/forza-devs-bribing-users-to-win-poll-against-gt5/

Really really a huge huge shame on Turn 10 for doing this. Man, they are so cheap. Going through all the trouble just to win some silly poll? Man, how immature can they be?

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BikerSaint
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:53:54 PM

@saintX,
Hate to say it, but that sh*t is nothing new.

Microsoft just keeps proving to the world, time & time again, that they haven't any "moral business ethics" what-s-ever!

MS has been exposed many times for paying people to go into PS & other Sony forums/sites & try to create havoc, by talking up their Xboxes & their games, while trash-talking anything & anyone that's PS or Sony related.


(BTW, like your ID name, it sorta rings a bell)
LMFAO

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Kangasfwa
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 12:14:10 AM

About that poll:

Editor's note: After numerous complaints of cheating and in-game content being offered as payment for votes, I've decided to close the poll. Way to ruin the fun for the rest of us, guys.

I wonder if he's referring to Take 10 or the corrupt poll takers...

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SaintX
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 3:29:58 AM

@bikersaint

haha thanks, been using this nick for few years now. But just found out a couple of days back that theres actually a small gaming developing studio which has almost the same nick as me :(
i swear i thought of the nick myself lol

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SaintX
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 1:42:21 PM
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Was reading a post from the turn10's blog, one of the writers wrote this

"Perhaps the most surprising to me was when a couple developers from Gran Turismo makers Polyphony Digital came by to personally get hands-on with Forza 3, all the while taking careful notes, examining our UI system, shooting photos, and directly asking us some pretty interesting questions. The reason I say I was personally surprised was because PD aren’t generally known as a studio to acknowledge that there are racing games that exist beyond their own. Which could explain why the GT franchise has been so stagnant in the racing genre since GT3"

Well, i think what the PD devs actually wrote in their note goes something like this:
1. hmmm,, this game is worst than i thought. FML
2. Boss told me to scout a game out, turns out it was this crap. FML
3. thought that i could learn something from this game but turns out this game should do some learning from me. FML
4. a waste of time coming here, least i got paid. FML
5. gotta tell the boss that the ball is still in its rightful position

anyway, its just a joke.

Last edited by SaintX on 6/10/2009 1:49:55 PM

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BikerSaint
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 4:14:22 PM

@SaintX,
Got mine in the 1970's from the brothers in another Motorcycle Club I was running around with.

They actually gave it to me as a humorous form of sarcasm(like calling a 6 footer "Tiny", cause of the things I did.

But in order not to incriminate myself, I can't tell ya anything. I'll always plead the 5th amendment in the USA, or shall I say, mum's the word for everywhere else, LMAO

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convergecrew
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 1:53:23 PM
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MS reminds me of the Republican party: always trying to put down the competition because they have nothing new or substantial to show.

just a joke.

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Reccaman18
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:01:23 PM
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Great read. I have to point out something, though. You said "controlling a Ferrari F1 is difficult, even in GT 3" GT 3 doesnt have Ferrari. GT5 P is the first in the series to feature them. Other than that little bitty thing, it was fantastic!

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ArnoldK PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:46:40 PM

I was talking about F1 cars in general in GT3, and the Ferrari 2007 F1 car in GT5P.

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N a S a H
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:23:34 PM
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Arnold, I agree about the G25 clutch problem. I was really disappointed that it was either in or not. I was hoping you could even get a bar like acceleration and brakes to see how far you've pushed it in.

I also hope that they add the G25's to the proper list of steerings wheels compataible. You've to pick controles for it now with the GT Force, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, Forza's developers need to grow up.

Last edited by N a S a H on 6/10/2009 2:24:06 PM

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ArnoldK PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:45:18 PM

Yep, and I actually think that's why the clutch doesn't work correctly. Because from what I recall, GTR and GTR2 do have proper clutch engagement. So we shall see.

And thanks to everyone who's been reading and commenting. I know it's a long read, I just felt like it had to be said.

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mikem
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:47:21 PM
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Great rant and thanks for bringing up SHIFT. It's been high up on my list since EA and SMS annouced it quite a while ago. It's too bad that EA has failed quite miserably at properly marketing the game: at the recent E3 none of the station where SHIFT was setup features FFB wheel/pedal control which makes it quite impssible for anyone to judge the driving physics. I still think that for sheer racing, SHIFT will challenge the big boys, GT5 and Forza 3. And as to Forza 3, while most of the improvement over F2 is quite noticeable, they "dropped the ball" on the grid size- it's staying at 8 just like Forza 2. Other games have moved on to at least 12.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 2:55:32 PM
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More Arnoldian rants please!

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 5:14:35 PM
Reply

Damn! Loved every bit of the rant. I looked at it at first and was like, awe...sh*t....

Great points by the way! And thanks for the heads up on NFS:SHIFT. Didn't know good devs were makin this game.

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BikerSaint
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 6:25:00 PM
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@Arnold,

"STANDING OVATION"

(Ohh BTW, love the Kerry pic, what a real lying putz he is)

Last edited by BikerSaint on 6/10/2009 6:27:14 PM

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Jed
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 11:55:16 PM

I've said it before, Arnold is a funny son of a bitch.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 6:40:43 PM
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This seals it.

PSX Extreme took Turn 10 and Microsoft to school in the worst way. Really, a fine, fine moment. :)

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BIG_E
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 10:14:45 PM

PSX EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEME FOR LIFE.

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Karosso
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 6:55:36 PM
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I don't believe the whole crap about PD developers scooping out Forza.
PD is too busy creating the "BEST RACING GAME EVER" for the 5th time in a roll :-)

Last edited by Karosso on 6/10/2009 6:56:44 PM

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AceTatsujin
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 7:04:57 PM
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Arnold, you deserve a hand shake from me. Where do you live?! ;]

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kiwami_nemesis
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 8:34:52 PM
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hey Arnold i agree 100% with you.

i hope polyphony has added or is going to add a dyno that actually allows you to fine tune an engine's powerband. another thing they most add is a boost controller for the turbo cars. the option of boost by gear or at least 2 setings of boost low/high would come handy in managing traction & tire wear.

the same for the nitrous option: 2 or 3 stages be nice.
tire psi plays a big role too while cornering.
custom painting & grafics would be a nice option.
about the gearing ratios differences between and auto or a manual transmissions. that is true since auto trannys always have longer gearing. that never crossed my mind since i always use manual trannys.

engine swaps most be added to GT5.

tire sizes & width which directly affects grip but has a direct impact in the final drive of a transmission therefor affecting the engine's power band.

engine & transmission temps which can have an impact towards performance.

the clutch must feel analog: meaning a bit of engagement will allow the car to slightly roll & dumping the clutch to transfer max power to the ground or stalling the car depending on the amount of gas given. they should provide clutch engagement feed back as on real life a factory clutch would never react the same as an aftermarket racing clutch. trust me i daily drive my car on a stage4 clutch and if dumped & the car grips the dash fells like it wants to fall off :).

I'm glad damage is finally coming to the series since it will affect the vehicle's handling in someway which will make more people focus on their braking points, hitting the apex, and simply clean racing but what I'm afraid about is the online experience with the damage, since there are some people that have no respect & simple enjoy ruining the experience for everyone.

one thing that be nice is pro or simulated online racing which to compete a G25 wheel most be used to participate since it takes more effort to turn with a wheel but the feedback transferred from a wheel is much greater which allows for more fine driving.

on the online mode when hosting a game they should allow which driving aids are allowed for all cars, also give you the option to limit it by drive layout, WHP, class, tires, ect...

the pits i wish they be like GTR2 where the driver has full control of the car & penalties are applied if going over the speed limit.

i only have the free demo & visually it looks amazing I'm sure GT5p has improved over that & the final product most be a piece of art. but one thing i have noticed in the demo is how well they have adapted weight transfer & balance, traction,the physics are extremely realistic.
the list above is just a few things that comes to my mind, that i think would improve the game even more.

about the wight reduction on the GT series what i understand by the numbers is :

stage 1= things are not need to drive the car that can be unbolted.
stage 2= things that are need but that can be swapped with lighter parts.
stage 3= the use of custom parts & fabrication to further improve the stage 2.

Last edited by kiwami_nemesis on 6/10/2009 8:36:12 PM

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ArnoldK PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 9:24:17 PM

Awesome post. And yes, I totally forgot to mention the effect tires/wheels have on the final drive.

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fstop
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 10:12:11 PM
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My two cents: WOW, this is a great read! This is why I love PSXE so much you guys ARE really too good at this, way too good. Even the posts are articles themselves.

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BikerSaint
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 11:35:35 PM
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It's just a shame we can't get the charactors of Yamauchi and Dan Greenawalt right into "Fight Night 4".

Can you imagine the fun of being able to play as Yamauchi and then punch Greenawalt's light's off a few million times???

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SaintX
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 3:34:55 AM

No need for fights, just take Yamauchi and Dan Greenawalt down to a racing track. Yamauchi will demonstrate his driving skills just as good as his skills for game development. Greenawalt will probably be driving at 50mph with extra safety gears on to keep him safe.

Last edited by SaintX on 6/11/2009 3:35:19 AM

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Jed
Wednesday, June 10, 2009 @ 11:58:10 PM
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that was amazing. I want to go punch something. Maybe I'll see if that Prototype patch is up yet

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Kangasfwa
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 12:27:14 AM
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...Wow

I prefer arcade racers so I had never realized racing sim players are this hardcore.

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Sir Shak
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 12:34:35 AM
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This is why I trust Arnold's reviews . That is the most well informed article on the internet concerning the GT vs. Forza debate . I doubt even Greenawalt knows this much abot the auto industry .

By the way , what's with that picture ?

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ArnoldK PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 3:17:45 AM

It's John Kerry dropping a ball. LOL I thought it was fitting.

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Qubex
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 9:13:34 AM

Lol... it works well Arnold!

Q!

"i am home"

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SkantDragon
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 3:52:37 AM
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I would actually like to see damage in the game. And I hope if/when they add it, it's realistic. And yeah, most people will be unhappy to get what they wished for. One little mistake can end your race. That's RL racing. But it would also change the way people play. You _should_ be afraid of crashing. You _should_ be afraid of running over the curbs too aggressively too many times until your suspension comes unglued. You _should_ learn to negotiate the track without ever hitting anything. And that means learning both real racing lines and restraint.

Anyway, to comment on your quibbles about realistic things you'd like to see added to GT...

Regarding auto transmissions... It actually wouldn't be realistic to include them. Very few auto transmissions can tolerate track use. They run very hot even in normal city driving. On the track, they just burn up and die.

Re tuning options... a lot of the things you're talking about is fiddly stuff that doesn't really make all that much difference, and would just confuse 99% of players. You can get most of these effects in the GT4 tuning system anyway.

Things like playing with boost pressures and such just wouldn't be fair to let you mess with. Because basically you're trading reliability for power. So unless you're going to add 'randomly blow the engine' to the damage model, it shouldn't let players play with the boost like that. Same for compression ratios and such. The only limit to these particular tunings is how far they can be pushed before the engine detonates itself. So either the engine is indestructable, and players can unrealistically abuse the hell out of it. Or you have random engine failures simulated in races, which nobody... even the most hardcore racer... is gonna like.

I do agree about tire pressures though. That's one that really matters, is a major factor in RL racing, and really should be added to GT. That and brake heat. I mean... the unsprung weight affect of one wheel style versus another isn't all that earth shattering. But the affect of green fade sure is.

Or how about flat spotting the tires?

Basically, the things I'd like to see added is all the stuff that actually affects how you drive. Because you need to conserve the car and keep temperatures under control... so you need to think about whether taking that lunge at getting inside the guy in front of you is worth melting your brakes into the next corner.

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ArnoldK PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, June 12, 2009 @ 1:57:25 AM

Blowing the engine is something I'd actually like to see with increasing boost pressure. It'd be nice if a little in game bar ran from green to red and told you how dangerously close your getting to running an engine that can't handle a certain spec.

Let's say you're having a hard time winning a race, and it's a relatively short race of 3 laps or something. Well, you can play with the pressure of your F.I. just a bit so that you can have the motor making a bit more power until dialing it back once you win the race, all at the expense and the risk of possibly blowing the engine if you're racing too harshly and not smooth enough. Idk, just thinking out loud here.

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King James
Thursday, June 11, 2009 @ 11:48:25 AM
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I knew Arnold wrote this one before I even read it. The funny pic says it all.

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fluffer nutter
Saturday, June 13, 2009 @ 3:19:50 PM
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I just went back and read up on everyone's follow up comments. Wow. Great reading, guys. Now, I'm off to go hit up some of my PS3 racing software. I'm definitely in the mood now.

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