: Should Sales Impact Game Awards?

Should Sales Impact Game Awards?

While most all of you will immediately scoff and respond in the abrupt negative, I believe it's a legitimate question. Bear with me.

When you look around the Internet and visit gaming communities and forums, you will see countless discussions concerning the best games of the the year; this tends to happen as we get towards the end of December. And you will notice that someone will mention something about sales numbers and quickly thereafter, dozens of people will slam on this dude and laugh at him for thinking "sales have anything to do with quality." Heck, I did something similar when we announced our Game of the Year Nominees and the concept of sales numbers caused me to reply with those very words. But ever since then, I've been starting to think outside the box a little, so-to-speak. While I will never believe that the consuming public will always reward the best-quality entertainment products (there's a reason why so many have never even heard of Oscar nominees these days), there's something else here...

The purpose of any given entertainment industry is to cater to as many members of the targeted demographic as possible. That's basically the goal in any business. Therefore, when something like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 or Grand Theft Auto IV sell millions of copies in only a few days time, that's very clearly a rip-roaring success, regardless of your own personal preferences. Should we not reward developers for being able to win over so many of the intended audience? Is this not worthy of positive attention? Furthermore, there's the social gaming aspect of the industry, which is - for all intents and purposes - almost brand new, especially in the console world. A game like MW2 really relies on multiplayer, for instance, and it must please entire groups of gamers who come together to play. To continue to succeed in that is another success.

Clearly, the games that sell well are doing something right. You could blame it all on over-the-top marketing but gamers have never rewarded crappy productions; they may have rewarded "great" games more than "excellent" ones, but we shouldn't be complaining about that, should we? Perhaps we should also look at sales numbers when determining awards and say to ourselves, "well, how many people did they really snag with this one?" On the other hand, we could simply hand out awards based on how we - the staff in question - view the merits of each game, and that's that. Of course, I'll still go with the latter but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as one might think...

12/25/2009 Ben Dutka

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Comments

NoSmokingBandit
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:02:22 PM
Reply

The problem with appealing to the general public is that the general public is full of morons. This is why bands like Nickelback and Shinedown are selling tons of records but nobody is listening to real high-quality music like Bach and Chopin.
This is not always true though, some really good quality games sell well, but generally speaking sales mean nothing when it comes to value.


Happy late christmas everyone!
Last edited by NoSmokingBandit on 12/25/2009 11:02:35 PM

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johnld
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:37:55 AM

i think calling them morons is a little too harsh. i think its more of a herd complex where they chose to just follow instead of making up their own viewpoint. as long as a small vocal group supports mediocrity, there will be people who will just follow. I mean i like playing multiplayer on Modern warfare 2 but thats only part of the game, but even that is not the best shooter i played. IMO its not even close to be good enough as a Game of the Year contender. Same goes for halo, i played it a few times and it was fun but nowhere near the quality of what people want you to believe. i want to name a ps3 exclusive too but i cant think of one that i didnt completely love. I could say that i bought haze day one and found it decent at best. Not even close to how badly people put it down. It was enjoyable when i played it and thats all i care about.

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Qubex
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 8:58:56 AM

JohnID does have a point... difficult to consider this complex subject in a relatively short post...

Briefly though, consider this... the effect of popular culture on a "herd".

Let us accept this fact at the very least; we are all part of a "herd", but to varying degrees.

Reality is, most individuals that form our humanity have half decent brains which evolve through life experience, education and application (use)... On an individualised basis "stupidity" and "level of stupidity" can be subjective; the thought processes and methodologies an individual employs to make choices to accept or reject products that seemingly reflect a cultural tract, or parts there of, vary, and therefore can result in the "herd" mentality when it comes down to some aspects of life.

In this case it could be the act of buying or voting for a particular game product; even though, with close scrutiny, the game product in question may truly not be worthy of an accolade when analysing and dissecting it from a very "intellectual" point of view, and/or "technical" point of view...

On an individualised basis, with the right information and knowledge, and with the correct analytical approach, individuals with a brain could and should judge a game product for what it really is. What does that game try to achieve in its representation of popular culture; and does its execution warrant the types of awards that ought to be bestowed on it whether or not it sells a million units or not?

A good example of this is Demon Souls. From what I read here it seems like it really is a superlative title, innovative and well executed; but then why has it not won awards for it's efforts? Why has it fallen off the radar screen in light of other AAA titles that have been released of late? What happened to gamers and their critical eye; their method of analysis; their appreciation of a well designed, well executed game that unfortunately has not sold as well as it could?

Has popular culture gone mad? Is it influencing and skewing the methodologies by which individuals analyse game products and their true potential?

Q!

"i am home"


Last edited by Qubex on 12/26/2009 9:19:54 AM

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dlte
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:20:47 AM

but the general public is full of morons. that's also why fox news has the highest viewership of cable news.

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MyWorstNightmar
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:58:58 PM

I love Nickelback and Fox news. I guess I am a moron, but I know what music I like, and I certainly know where to get my intellectually honest news from. Not sure why you would bag on either of those two entities.

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Fane1024
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 5:03:55 PM

Fox News isn't news. Even if you're conservative, you should be able to see that.

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LimitedVertigo
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:05:27 PM
Reply

Great point with the Oscars. It's sad to see how few have actually watched the movies that have won.

MW2 rode the coattail of MW1. If Uncharted2 was multiplatform it would not have come close to selling the amount that MW2 has. Certain genres tend to sell a lot in particular areas, (RPGs in Japan, FPS in the States). Obviously millions of people can't be wrong but a game that sells 5 million vs a game that has only sold a little over a million does not show which is the better game.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:10:56 PM
Reply

My thinking is we just hand them an award for most sales, how about that?

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LimitedVertigo
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:14:29 PM

We already do, it's called the checkout.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:13:01 AM

I dunno, I've bought plenty of crap over the years. I certainly didn't award my money to them.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:36:11 AM

I'll admit I've done the same but thankfully most was done in my teens and when stores still had great return polices, (Buy a game, return it a week later for a full refund).

Lately I've been thankful for demos/torrents/and reviews like PSXE to keep me educated on what deserves my money.

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MyWorstNightmar
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:04:35 AM

Limited, buy a game, and then return it a few weeks later? That is a return policy I could really get behind.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:39:03 AM

Build a time machine and go back to Orland Park, Illinois during the period of 1992-1999.

Enjoy! It's that easy!

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:24:30 AM

I was still working at EB when that policy got abolished. I believe my manager said something like, "the company finally decided that they didn't feel like renting games for free."

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Larsperson
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:21:24 PM

EB games in Australia has the 7 day return policy on all new games. I know of a few people who regularly buy a game for an easy platinum then return it within a week and get something else. Personally I like my game collection too much to return anything.

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Buckeyestar
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:21:29 PM
Reply

Sales=popularity, not necessarily quality. Just because American Idol is the most wildly popular show around, doesn't mean it's good television. Same principle applies.

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TheJackyl
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:35:28 PM
Reply

"they may have rewarded "great" games more than "excellent" ones, but we shouldn't be complaining about that, should we?"

I think we should. Otherwise what is there to encourage developers to make excellent games as opposed to somewhat more mediocre games by comparison.

I'm not going to say that games like MW2 are as poor in quality as say a Britney Spears' album but there are some similarities. Primarily that these games tend to have a lot on the surface but no real depth. At least that is what MW2 seemed to me for the 15 minutes I played in on single player. No, I didn't try the multiplayer but I'm the type that believes these games still need an engaging single player mode first and then a fun multiplayer mode second.

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TheJackyl
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:07:39 AM

Also, aren't excellent sales figures a reward in themselves?

This is why there are separate award competitions. There are the ones that are juried by renowned critics and then there are awards given through popularity vote. This is why the Oscar's are more respected than the MTV/Teen Choice Awards. The opinions of proven professional critics are held in higher esteem than the opinions of Joe Blow Plumber and Mary Sue.

Using sales figures to qualify a game for an award is simply adding the popularity vote, which in my opinion, lessens the awards validity.

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to_far_apart
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:45:54 PM
Reply

You do make a valid point Ben. Although, I still feel that the sales of games shouldn't affect awards or nominations in the respective categories. Unfortunately, there are many people who rely on figures and marketing solely, rather then trying it out for themselves. Since society today is mainly market driven, then you do see a correlation between a company who promotes their products more then others. I agree that companies who have huge success with a game should be noticed. Like you mentioned, games like GTA and Call of Duty are widely popular because they execute their games perfectly to the audiences they're focusing to. Such a feet should be rewarded, or appreciated, I guess then it would all be personal opinion if it should be included for nominations.

But i still feel that sales figures shouldn't be taken into account. It's true, the widespread majority have not seen half of the movies that are nominated or even win their respective awards. But the idea that any company could have a legitimate chance to be rewarded for their work, is really the bet option in my opinion. I mean granted, Call of Duty MW2, has been selling copies like if it was going out of style, but has it really been the best game of the year? That's still personal preference like everything. Granted, such wide success, is what draws consumers from everywhere, and "validates" itself among people. Unfortunately, these same people don't play the little hidden gems in gaming that are sometimes under-appreciated.

Unfortunately, there are to many people that believe that high sales figures equates to a high quality experience. Rather a game should be recognized for the overall quality, story, experience, etc. But that's just me haha

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LimitedVertigo
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:48:53 PM

You need to post on here more, you're an excellent writer.

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to_far_apart
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:49:33 PM

Like i mentioned in previous comments, i think the addition of online play in gaming has affected gaming to a point. Now, let me clarify, I'm not saying every game that has an online playing component is bad, but if you notice, overall, quality of games have suffered. Unfortunately some companies focus a lot of their time on the online component, do to such popularity for online play. But this shouldn't affect game quality. You have seen companies succeed with a great online mode and a great story, so i guess you could argue that it depends on the developer, but i still feel that online has had a huge impact on this.

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to_far_apart
Friday, December 25, 2009 @ 11:50:24 PM

haha thank you! writing has always been a hobby of mine! i appreciate the compliment =)

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Gordo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:19:57 AM
Reply

If you start making a distinction between "popular" and "classy" you will end up being "elitist".

This must be the general gist of any "game of the year awards". You need to reflect your own preferences but also keep close to the general populations preferences.

We shouldn't have to jump on every bandwagon and rate every blockbuster 10 out of 10 but critically review it like you guys do here.

At the end of the day every review is personal and dependant of the gamers own preferences. I might have liked Dragons Age Origins 10 years ago when I was single and at University and had 50 hours to play it.
I loved Uncharted 2 because it wrapped me up with an excellent story and gave me a few hours escapism every evening after work for a couple of weeks.
Also as a teenager with loads of friends Modern Warfare 2 might have been my favourite because we could all play together.

So horses for courses as they say.
I appreciate the work that goes into every game and would love to play them all if lifes commitments didnt get in the way.

Also popular shouldn't be confused with "lowest common demoninator". Just because a game is popular doesnt mean it is brainless or common. It may be more the "broadest common denominator" so games that are aimed at the biggest world wide demographic like GTAIV and MW2 are the biggest sellers.

Should they be the award winners? That is the difference between popular and critical acclaim.

So is Modern Warfare 2, Killzone 2, Demon's Souls, Uncharted 2 or Assassins Creed 2 the game of the year?

Popular or critical? Sales versus reviews? Technical versus gameplay? Herd mentality or go off on your own?

Good luck guys... Damned if you do and damned if you don't!
Last edited by Gordo on 12/26/2009 12:21:45 AM

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to_far_apart
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:22:30 AM

Great post!

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:44:43 AM

You can separate elitism from simply being knowledgeable though. Many people make the mistake of transposing the two.

At the end of the day a published review is not reliant upon the reviewers preference. One's opinion on a game can differ drastically from an informed critique.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 12/26/2009 12:47:38 AM

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Gordo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:36:41 AM
Reply

cheers!

Some of the games of year at the moment are Demon's Souls, Assassins Creed, Batman and Uncharted 2.

I think most have kept away from the "elephant in the room" Modern Warfare 2.
I loved MW2 but it was like watching a series of 24 with Keifer Sutherland instead of Indiana Jones which is Uncharted 2. Assassins Creed 2 was more like the Sopranos or Rome!

Probably from a critical point of view Demon's Souls is the game of the year since it took internet connectivity to another level and immersed you in a whole new universe. Annoyed that the game isn't out in Europe or Australia so cannot play it! That must be a negative point even for a US website! :-)

Anyway, all I know is that I've played enough excellent games this year for my wife to want to cut my HDMI cable in half (that is a euphemism by the way) so the only winner is the gamer.

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oldmike
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:45:45 PM

deamon souls has 2 thing that make some HATE it
1 its hard many play for fun not to get mad
2 some one can enter your game and kill you
this is why i passed on it that and i like story in my rpgs and i read its a bit weak

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StevieRV
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:43:52 AM
Reply

i agree ben, throughout the year you have said in countless articles that the alltime greatest sellers closely resembles the greatest reviewed games, so therefore best selling games are usually the best games

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jerocarson
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:17:46 AM
Reply

i think they should work pari pasu

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BikerSaint
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:26:07 AM
Reply

Then I'm pari pasu with Nike ....

"JUST SAY NO"...

Last edited by BikerSaint on 12/26/2009 1:28:57 AM

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BikerSaint
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 6:08:38 PM

also means "hand in Hand" according to Google

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Gordo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:30:12 AM
Reply

Pari Passu - fairly, without partiality.

Definately should be the motto of this site.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:36:49 AM

But that's boring, come on.

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BikerSaint
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:48:51 AM

@LV,
Then how about...

"F*ck em if they can't take a joke"?

(it always works for me)

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:02:29 AM

Saint you usually have a habit of making me laugh but for some reason your post this time REALLY got to me, can't stop laughing thinking of you saying that line.

Oh and by the way there is a mountain of snow outside. So make that 3 layers of ICE covered by what looks to be 6inches of snow. DEATH TRAP.

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Gordo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:48:19 AM
Reply

ok, needs to be this one instead:

"A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi"

Between a rock and a hard place!

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NeutralGamer_86
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:03:41 AM
Reply

Although sales at times indicates how popular a game is, it does not mean that it's the best. With all the sales that MW2 received, it was beat out by another game in it's category. Let's just say it's been a successful year for PS3 games.

http://www.gamespot.com/best-of/?ttag=mktg_newsletter&tag=nl.e573

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:09:46 AM
Reply

My answer is Yes. There's a reason why millions bought MW2, so it shoulda been in the GOTY nominees regardless.

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Hezzron
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:34:11 AM

Millions in sales AND great reviews. It deserves at least a nomination for GOTY.

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:53:32 AM

Millions buy Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus records, it doesn't make their music good or even quality.

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:30:05 PM

Hezzron you know it.
Jawknee, I know.....but you mean it doesn't deserve a nomination?...naaww
Last edited by www on 12/26/2009 2:30:31 PM

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:53:44 PM

Based on sales, no.

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:15:56 PM

That's what eludes you Jawknee. It's not ONLY because of sales. The sales are there because it's a friggin good game regardless of your personal tastes.

Sales does NOT equal quality, but as Ben points out, would the sales even BE there if the game was crud? You think devs can bamboozle 5 million gamers? You're dreaming.

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oldmike
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:52:24 PM

"You think devs can bamboozle 5 million gamers?"

Halo says HI

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Hezzron
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:06:27 PM

@Jawknee - Do you have any clue as to who buys millions of Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus records? Little girls.

Little girls wouldn't want YOU reviewing their music any more than WE would want government officials reviewing video games.

Sales numbers are all relative too. You can't just blurt out something popular that you know most people here wouldn't like, and think it'll drive home your point.

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:09:48 PM

@ oldmike - Here's a new concept for you. Halo single-handedly brought the FPS to consoles. The millions of customers who bought Halo weren't bamboozled, they bought what they liked.

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 7:55:24 PM

Doesn't matter who buys those reords. Its a nonsequiter. Ben asked if sales should impact the nominations and awards. Just because something sells well doesn't automatically mean it's deserving of an award. If it's such a great game then it can be judged and win without taking sales numbers into consideration. This goes for any game. If you have to point to sales and say "see, people bought it, it must be good!" that doesn't say much. The question of why did it sell surfaces and THAT is what should determine if it's worthy of an award or not.

Alianage, your forgetting Golden Eye. Halo didn't "single handedly" do anything.
Last edited by Jawknee on 12/26/2009 7:59:12 PM

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 8:33:17 PM

Don't be silly Jawknee. The damn snes had Wolfenstein. That's not what I'm saying. Halo, single-handedly introduced FPS to millions through it's online action. It didn't matter that the game lacked in other areas, the game gave gamers what they wanted so they bought it up by the pallet. You think reviewers should just turn a blind eye to that and say "bah, there was some screen tearing here and there, it's bad game?"

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 8:50:55 PM

Aah forgot about online. You got me on that one sir!

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___________
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:10:57 AM
Reply

well you would think so.
if a games so good and gets rave reviews, and just by word of mouth you would expect it to sell well.
but clearly thats not whats happening.
owell, keep bringing the games and im happy.

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Zorigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 6:12:31 AM
Reply

no it shouldn't. it could be a category or something, but games are made for the audience, you don't judge a song by how well it sells, you judge by how well it sounds.

games are there to be enjoyed when it comes down to it, if a game is enjoyable for whatever reason; story, graphics, sounds, gameplay etc etc, then it should be recognised for that. i don't get enjoyment out of games that sell well. uncharted 1 didn't sell 'well', i loved it.

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___________
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 6:27:13 AM

your missing the point.
hes saying good games, good music, good movies, good cars and such should sell well.
as i said reviews have much more effect than what you think, and word of mouth is just as effective.
if a movie, game or whatever is good your going to tell your friends and they will be interested, than they will tell a friend and so on, thus increasing the sales.
sales should have a influence on GOTY awards because games that deserve GOTY should of sold well.
they should, but they dont.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:34:38 AM

@Zorigo

You're not missing the point, good post. Ignore Mr. Nobody, as usual he isn't making any sense and just rambling.

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Zorigo
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 7:38:15 AM

thanks vertigo, but i'm just going to prove nobody wrong...

uncharted. great game. at my school, word got around pretty quickly, almost the entire gaming community in my area knew about this game. not many bought it. some games sell well, and can be recognised for that, but others are an achievement in their own and may not have sold aswell.

Uncharted was great, refreshing, constantly mixed up, never gettin boring, etc etc, did it sell 'well'? no.
Mirror's edge, one of the best IPs this generation, was great for it's new gameplay (free running in first person) and it felt great to play like that. Did that sell 'well'? no.

sales don't always reflect the great games.

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JackC8
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 7:23:13 AM
Reply

No, I don't think sales should have anything to do with game of the year. If Wii Sports was game of the year for the last several years, nobody would even bother clicking on the article, and the whole thing would be utterly meaningless.

Also, advertising and hype have a huge impact on sales, but have nothing to do with the quality of the game. Especially when you're talking about sequels, an excellent game will sell a lot of copies of the sequel, regardless of how good it is.

And if I'm not mistaken, games like solitaire and chess are installed on just about every PC sold, and I doubt too many games could compete with the hundreds of millions of those that sell in a year.

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frostface
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 7:25:53 AM
Reply

Games should be nominated based on their own merits and not on how many units get shipped out. I've lost track of the amount of times I've bought a game because everyone else had it and said it was a must have purchase only to find out when I get to playing it that its a piece of turd(GTA series for example). It's because of this sheepish follow the flock attitude that a series like CoD (I do like CoD btw) gets all the attention amongst the majority of gamers, when a game like Uncharted 2 which is far far superior in almost every aspect doesn't get anywhere near the sales it deserves. So when it comes to awards time and I see Uncharted 2 getting Game Of The Year right across the board, I think justice has been done. Had MW2 won game of the year based on it's astronomical sales figures I think I may of wrote up a strongly worded letter to someone regarding this insult. Thank God I don't have too now, I'm rubbish at writing letters.

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Douchebaguette
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 8:16:57 AM
Reply

Going to state the obvious, but games like MW2 sold well because:

A] It had of course mass marketing.
B] The genre [FPS inclpuding MP] appeals to a phat pie quantity of people this generation anyway.
C] It's the sequel to the most huge success story of this generation. MW2 could of been absolute donkey-balls & you were still going to find blind purchases, mass word of mouth and mass conforming before the game would even release.

So if anything, it's more that a franchise should be awarded by sales - not a singular game itself. Of course we all know that sales should mean jack-s**t with anything at all; Rage Against The Machine proved this by distorting the UK Christmas No. 1 spot from X Factor winner's Joe McElderry.

_________________________________________

Another great thing to compare how great MW2 is supposed to be are game awards themselves [the bigger ones]. For instance, when Spike TV announced Uncharted 2 as GOTY, loads of 360 fanboys resorted to rabid ranting that consisted mostly of childish insults - it's as if they thought Spike TV's GA seemed to be the officiality of all gaming opinion.


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frostface
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:52:10 AM

I wanted to make that same Rage v Joe comparison but couldn't word it as well as you did!

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Paolo Kutaragi
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 8:43:38 AM
Reply

Uncharted 2: Among Thieves is MY Game of the year whether critics and gamers like it or not.

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Deleted User
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:16:48 AM
Reply

Ben. You are still mad because YOUR FAVORITE GAME, Uncharted 2, didnt beat your most hated game, Modern Warfare 2.

I still dont get how you think you are a BETTER JUDGE OF WHAT A GAME IS THAN ANYONE ELSE. I have played games since the 70's. Does that make me a better judge of games than you? Did you go to a college that gave you some sort of edge on how to tell a better game than the rest of us?

People bought MW2 because they LOVED the first MW. Turns out MW2 is so much fun that word of mouth spread and even more people are buying it now. Most people dont buy games because of a HYPE MACHINE. They buy the game because A: The previous game was fun and has a proven track record and B: It is multiplayer and they want to play with thier friends.

The first Uncharted sold well. But it didnt have LIGHTS OUT SELLS because, well, ALOT OF PEOPLE JUST DIDNT LIKE THE GAME.

I agree with you Uncharted 2 is a GREAT GAME and everyone should get a chance to play it. But that is life. Everyone has a choice and tastes.

As far as your question goes, YES sells should be determined in game of the year. Are you kidding me? This is ULTIMATELY how the people speak. Money talks and bullshyt walks. IF it wasnt then I think Demon's Souls should be number one! Well, not really but I think I just made my point.

Viewpoints are like assholes, everybody has one, including you dear sirrah.

End of Line.


Last edited by n/a on 12/26/2009 9:18:22 AM

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:43:02 AM

Did you even read what Ben wrote? Seriously how do you come to the conclusion that he hates MW2?

Of course MW2 sold more than UC2 it's on 3 different platforms you fool and a much more established brand. Those reasons alone prove why sales should not equate to quality or GOTY status.

People lined up for HOURS to buy MW2 the night it came out having never actually played the game. 5hrs of single player and MP that equates to what was available on PCs a decade ago doesn't make for GOTY. As someone mentioned earlier American Idol consistently rates the highest during it's time slot. Does that mean it's the best show on TV at that time? In terms of viewership yes, in terms of quality HELL NO.

You're entire post comes off as an attempt to paint Ben as an elitist journalist but unfortunately you FAIL.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:26:55 AM

Either you didn't read a word I wrote or your reading comprehension level is in the toilet.

Nothing in there has anything to do with GameSpot. And if you want to continue to insult me by implying that what I do is nothing everybody else couldn't do, you may leave. It's freakin' annoying.

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tes37
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:37:30 AM

You are mistaken to think that Ben's job is just opinion based and lacks no skill or understanding.
Do you believe someone can walk in off the street, having no experience, and outperform you at your job?

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Douchebaguette
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:12:49 AM

@ Drithe

"The first Uncharted sold well. But it didnt have LIGHTS OUT SELLS because, well, ALOT OF PEOPLE JUST DIDNT LIKE THE GAME."

Wrong. It's because alot of people NEVER HEARD ABOUT THE GAME, or DIDN'T BOTHER PLAYING IT. Yet have you seen reviews for it? It's praised well, and the majority who have played it find it good / great. They certainly don't dislike it.

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:38:37 PM

AW you guys shoulda let Drithe's rant slide, its a festive season and maybe he had too much to drink, blame it on the alcohol...lol. Dont bombard him with insults, he obviously didn't read the article.
Drithe take a chill pill and relax okay.

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Jackyl
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 1:31:03 PM

This guy obviously believes that age equates to expertise.

You can be both old and an idiot.

Now go listen to your multi-platinum Britney Spears albums since sales represents quality.

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Snaaaake
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:35:18 AM
Reply

If sale should be determined in game of the year, then Mario will win it every single ****ing year.

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Fane1024
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 5:16:31 PM

They don't release a true Mario game every year.

Well, maybe they do, if you include the handheld games.

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Deleted User
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:53:25 AM
Reply

Ok first off Limited there is no reason for you to get personal and start calling names like a child. Second of all ...........

IM talking about PS3 sales only. MW2 DESTROYED UC2 in PS3 sales.

Deal with it.

End of Line.

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Paolo Kutaragi
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:20:33 AM

MW2 didn't destroy UC2 at all when it comes to sales. MW2 sold around 5 million copies on PS3 and UC2 sold around 2.3 million copies. The original Uncharted already proved that the franchise has some legs, which expectantly means that Uncharted 2 will continue to sell. It will reach 3 million soon, and lifetime sales won't be less than 4 million copies. MW2 will continue to sell too, but it hasn't destroyed and will never destroy Uncharted 2.

Just do your math, then come again. We'll be waiting for your return, chab.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:38:31 AM

You're comparing a game that's 6 games into a popular brand and in a genre (FPS) that has become the white cake of the gaming world to a game that's only the 2nd game into a brand and only a few years into being a known property.

Ya GREAT comparison.

I'll continue to call you a fool if you act like one by coming on here and attempting to slander one of the site owners and creating a flame fest with lies and faulty logic.
Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 12/26/2009 10:39:29 AM

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Douchebaguette
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:06:05 AM

Drithe - So you're basically calling yourself a sheep and that we are just supporting the underdog. I see no tragedy in that.

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Paolo Kutaragi
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:08:53 AM

Drithe, there's another thing you have to pay attention to. Do you remember when COD was struggling to sell even 3 million copies on PS2 - the most successful console ever - when its userbase was above 100 million?! The original Uncharted sold around 2.9 million copies and it was released when the PS3's userbase was around 9 million users.

Just imagine how much copies Naughty Dog will sell in 2011 when the time comes to release the third installment of its great franchise! Not to mention that the original Uncharted and Uncharted 2 will carry on selling. I mentioned before in my last post that the franchise has legs, didn't I?

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to_far_apart
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:14:09 PM

If you're going to end an argument like that Drithe, then you need really are acting like a brat. First of all, I'm sick of some people in the last previous weeks putting down Ben's job, or any critic for that matter. You can't seriously believe that a critic is a job anyone can do. No, not everyone can't. Critics have to take an in depth look and formulate a critic about the certain subject matter, and a good critic formulates a non bias opinion. In no way did Ben ever mention his hate for MW2 or even utter the words that MW2 was a bad game, contrary, he already gave it high praise for its phenomenal sales, and discussed the huge popularity it has had and maintained. If you read one of the previous articles, you would know Ben's position on this now.

Secondly, what your saying is completely opinion based, there is no need to forcing your opinion on anyone, as if you are the one who is right and so on. You talk about name calling, well i talk about bashing, saying Ben is showing favortism, etc, let me inform you of something. As a critic, Ben can't hold any favoritism is his articles, which is what makes him one damn good writer and keeps me coming back. He's always expressing both sides of the story and taking no sides, if he chooses to say something about what he feels, he will make a note of that in the article, which will in no way reflect the attitude in his article, it's mainly a side note, his own opinion. I for one appreciate his time and the abilities with which he writes, because he is one hell of a writer, along with the PSXE staff.

One last thing, did you ever watch the movie crash? or Milk with Sean Penn (someone correct me, I'm not 100% sure of the name) because last time i looked, the movies sales on each of those were well below some of the widely popular movies, and yet, they did win the oscar for best movie didn't they?

I respect your opinion, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when a person starts bashing and starts to talk ignorantly, it really gets me frustrated. Not to mention the way you end things by writing "deal with it" and "end of line" shows just how much you could care less about anyone else's opinion. So you want to say something, go for it, but no need to bash or whine.

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Snaaaake
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:20:16 AM
Reply

Well Demon's Souls won GOTY at Gamespot which came as a huge surprise to me because I seriously thought that UC2 would win it.

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furbiesmustdie
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 10:56:03 AM
Reply

Short answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Take Halo 3, just because it sells silly amounts does not mean it is the best game ever meanwhile Uncharted 2, one of the best games of this generation only sell a few copies.

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Snaaaake
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:00:45 AM

Here's the long answer:
No =)

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Bugzbunny109
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:33:19 AM
Reply

I share your sentiments Ben; but only if they create a category for "appealed to most of demographic". I personally believe that sales does not determine the quality of a game. For example, Valkyria Chronicles was a very good game, but sold terribly. On the other hand, in my perspective, MW2 isn't a very good game, but sold a myriad of copies. MW2 sold many copies not because it was a good, but because COD4 was good. In my eyes, MW2 is an overly hyped game with no substance-6 hour incoherent story mode, and the same online as COD4 only with killstreaks and a callsign. I didn't pay $60 for killstreaks and callsigns, but for a game worth my time.

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godsman
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:36:18 AM
Reply

Sales mean nothing. If it does then:

Wii Sports would be the best game of all time since it's a game most distributed to everyone.

Mario Kart would be the best racing game. It's almost 20 million copies sold. There are no bundles for Mario Kart. People fork over real money for this game. Not a single Gran Turismo game could match those sales.

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Darwin1967
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:43:31 AM
Reply

One could apply your same observations to movies. Blockbusters tend to rake in the oscars, while obscure indie films that can at times be far more deserving fall short on awards. In the end, I think it is dollars, public demand, and mass marketing that tend to drive awards.

Having played both MW2 and Drake...I'd say Drake should have taken home the award. IW is still trying to perfect MW2....patch after patch and it's still messed up in many regards, where as Naughty Dog bascially put out a final game of epic quality and playability thus giving its conusmers a "complete" game.

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Snaaaake
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:04:36 PM

There's a freezing issue at one point but hey, ND patched it and it's now perfect.

But even without the patch it's still perfect.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 6:01:13 PM

Uh...the blockbusters aren't raking in any Oscars. Like I said in the article, most of the awards go to movies people have never heard of (sadly).

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 11:55:39 AM
Reply

No. Just because something sells well doesn't make it good. There are more people in te world with poor taste then good. Mediocrity sells. Just ask all those teeny bopper artists who came from the Micky Mouse club and went on to sell terrible music in the millions.

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LimitedVertigo
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:15:20 PM

Funny you mention MMC. I'm currently downloading the MMC from the early 90s. 16gigs of past pleasure, hmmm.

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:19:36 PM

MMC was when they were in their prime. :)

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Ricochet
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:17:34 PM
Reply

Although I must admit Uncharted 2 DEFINITELY was underappreciated in sales. Let us not ignore the diversity of the PS3 gamers, each divided from RPG fanatics to "niche" groups. And SONY caters to them equally, hence we're seeing the likes of Demon's Souls and 3D Dot Heroes releasing for Western shores.

For me, as long as the game warrants a profit enough to make a company happy or to warrent a better quality sequel, that everything is okay with me. No doubt like Uncharted:DF, the game will have long-legs and if anything, I was totally surprised by the sales of MW2, didn't the last game sell about 3 mil on the PS3 when it had a fewer userbase than this year? I think that was a point that was easily missed out. Even if it lacked in sales compared to other "popular" franchises, the awards SONY's exclusives are having are racking up and it WILL garner a whole lot of attention.

Regardless, 2010 is going to be hectic and in response to this article, I'm putting all PS3 exclusives as my priorty because I know the effort AND quality will overshadow even the AAA potentials like (Bioshock II and Red Dead Redemption).

Happy Holidays and let's support our games in the near future.

Last edited by Ricochet on 12/26/2009 12:19:01 PM

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bxshotboi
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:26:48 PM
Reply

so many of you have a point and to tell you the truth how many wonderful games are put down at every moment for example i just got valkyria chronicles not too long ago but the day i originally went to purchase it a gamestop employee had the nerve to tell me not to get the game because it wasnt so great. then later on i get it and realized he was full of sh!t because i liked it. its one of the best games ive played lately and i had sum1 tell me it was crap! sales vary on so many factors and the world is just using numbers to put games as nominees for goty when we all know they are not the best games of the year multiplatform or not

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Phoelix
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 12:43:02 PM
Reply

Yeah, I'd say still definitely not.

That would mean that the Wii is a more successful console than both the 360 and PS3.

Popularity is fickle and only sometimes does "quality" really matter.

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Snaaaake
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:38:27 PM

Agree.

Buy what's good, not popular.(though that doesn't necessarily mean popular game suck)

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Jawknee
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 1:44:21 PM

The Wii is more sucessful then the PS3 and Xbox. Doesn't mean it deserves a GCOTY award.

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Phoelix
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:10:02 PM

You know what I meant. I meant "successful" as they say "this was a successful piece of art" and not "this was a successful business--we hauled in 3 mil this month."

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Jed
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 1:29:51 PM

that is exactly that I was thinking

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Fane1024
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 5:23:30 PM

@ Jawknee

GCOTY = Game Cube Of The Year?

Needs more duct tape. ;P

p.s. Don't correct me; I know what he actually meant.
Last edited by Fane1024 on 12/28/2009 5:24:43 PM

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TheHighlander
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:06:54 PM
Reply

Whenever this topic of considering sales when trying to determine the quality of something comes up I am reminded of an old saying.

"Never mind the quality, feel the width!"

In other words, its quantity over quality. One is not indicative of the other.

Personally I like to think that quality always shines through, even when sales numbers are comparatively poor. Game awards are, to me, a function of reviews and critical acclaim, not sales.

In every field of entertainment there is this issue of quality and quantity. A popular action movie may for example pale into insignificance against something like Citizen Kane in terms of critical acclaim or cultural value, but it's not very fair to compare the two is it? So we have best action movie and best drama, and both are rewarded. However there are still times when truly awful movies, music or other products are insanely popular. There are still other times when obviously high quality movies, music or other products are ignored by consumers.

Looking at the Oscars for a moment, there are plenty of times when a movie that had a poor showing in it's initially release sees a new lease of life if it wins an Academy Award. The award brings new recognition and an 'objective' measure of quality that gives more people reason, or perhaps permission, to see the movie.

Perhaps a truly high quality game that doesn't get the sales that it's quality deserves is properly rewarded by the critical acclaim. Conversely, a game that sells insanely but doesn't get the critical acclaim is rewarded by the massive sales?

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BikerSaint
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 6:56:56 PM

Yes, it's just as Highlander said...
<<<<Personally I like to think that quality always shines through, even when sales numbers are comparatively poor. Game awards are, to me, a function of reviews and critical acclaim, not sales.>>>>

A case in point(but using autos instead)...

Remember the Yugoslavian made a car called the Yugo???

When this $3900 bucket of bolts(no offense to real buckets of bolts) came out to the U.S.????
Millions of them were sold & seen all over our roadways.
But.....almost all of them wound up rusting away in junkyards all across the nation within 2 years.

Quality trumps quantity.
(just my 2 cents)

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Deleted User
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:14:05 PM
Reply

I demand you noobs give me 200 thumbs up and stop giving me thumbs down. If you dont I will never have enough thumbs up to get a real live girlfriend, and that my gamer friends, is uncivilized.

Could you REALLY live with that?

End of Line.

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 2:42:04 PM

Okay I gave you thumbs up, can you calm down now!

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:40:35 PM

Do the veterans have to thumb u up to?

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Zorigo
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 10:29:19 AM

@World, in my head, that sounded dirty

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Jed
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 9:58:48 PM

I think World is already holding up the right finger.

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Scarecrow
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:36:56 PM
Reply

It's simple:

Demon's Souls > Call of Duty: MW2

So no, quality > sales

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:01:30 PM

I performed an experiment this xmas on my brother, he is a MW2 nut and I bought him Killzone 2, lets wait and see what happens :)
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 12/26/2009 4:02:57 PM

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Scarecrow
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:29:12 PM

Heh should be interesting

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 3:37:01 PM
Reply

Ben. I read, and re-read and then re-read what you just wrote. You sir are bang on. I agree all the way. All these cry babies saying sales doesn't equal quality just aren't getting it.

Take any of the massively sold games in the past two years. Most sold into the millions on day one. That means millions of people already had it in mind to buy that particular game long before the game became a sales success. Where did they come up with the idea to buy that particular game?

Well, look at the successes. GTA4, MW2, Bethesda RPGs, Uncharted 2 and others... all sequels to games that were worth every cent. Nobody had to talk us into buying the latest GTA game. We knew what we would get. Nobody had to explain to us what MW2 was going to be because we already knew. The sales numbers are simply a result of a quality game. Quality in the eye of the target market.

We can dump on Halo and Wii sales all we want, but for their target markets, they are quality as well.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:05:40 PM

I prefer to look at it on a sliding scale, like yeah quality games often have the best sales, but the better games don't necessarily have more sales than the ones that are "great not excellent."

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:20:36 PM

Alienage thanks.

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oldmike
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:20:59 PM

GTA4 was for me a big over rated let down
i was not going to get it at 1st
but then saw all the 10's it got
so i got it and was let down GTA:SA was better

also day one sales dont prove your point at all for it mite be crap

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Hezzron
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:51:19 PM

@Alienange - Amen.

The Wii games that sell well ARE quality games for that system.....and seeing as how this is a Playstation exclusive site, I don't know why people would whine about "Wii games winning every year". They're not even in the running here.

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:13:39 PM

@ oldmike - Neither the charts nor the sales numbers will always reflect your personal tastes. I too was let down by GTA4. I thought it should have been so much more. But you know what? Serves me right. Those 100% scores aren't wrong. The game is stellar even if it's not my thing. I much prefer Mercenaries 2. But the fact is, people buy and will always buy GTA games by the boat load because they're excellent games.

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:20:49 PM

@ WorldEndsWithMe - It's true. Many out of this world amazing games (aka Shadow of the Colossus) don't get the sales they deserve. But I can't look at that and say "sales don't mean anything." Maybe we have to look at these games that sell so well and see just what it is that makes them so popular. We may still not like the game, but on the other hand, we might just find that we've discovered something new that we DO like. Could it be?

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:08:48 PM
Reply

Quality is really subjective I think. I mean MW2 is a quality game because it is really fun and obviously well done, but technologically speaking it is a light year behind your Killzone 2 with its vastly superior AI, relevant combat (MW excels in having tons of useless functionless combat happening around you) and of course graphics. Then you have to wrangle with the story. It's a real mess.

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www
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 4:36:45 PM

But don't you think MW is KZ2's mother? I mean, I know online shooters have been around but none of them nailed it like MW did.

MW if not MW2 is the mother of all other wannabe great online shooters out there. Believe me I loved KZ2 but I still can't understand how folk can compare KZ2 to MW2. Just look at the number of real life weapons in MW2, dear God! The story of MW2 is greater, got some emotions attached whiles KZ2, is more of the same ol' ' Oh the aliens have attacked!!!!', gears of war, resistance fairy tales.
The masses can understand how it is on the battlefield with these SAS and US troops, ok tell me, when was the last time you heard about an alien invasion or seen an alien cross the street. You see games like KZ2 are good but I coulda sworn there were more people playing W@W online even after KZ2's launch. There's just this thing about COD, we humans can relate to it.
Last edited by www on 12/26/2009 4:37:52 PM

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Hezzron
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:17:14 PM

@WWW -- Brilliant post.

I love the MW series (and other stuff of course). I have just recently played KZ2, mostly due to the hype I've read here. I can safely say that MW has nothing to worry about with KZ2.

The only thing KZ2 has on MW2 is the graphics engine, which was wasted on a dull color palette, hallways, crumbling buildings, and crates.

The writing and dialogue in KZ2 is atrocious. It's like hanging out with brain dead, steroid using wrestling stars doing their best surfer dude imitations.

Much fuss has been made about MW2's 6 hour SP campaign, but is KZ2's 8 hours that much more generous, or even as entertaining? KZ2's online community is dwarfed by MW2's as well, and for all the obvious reasons, such as fun factor and quality.

Despite it suffering from "me-too-ism", I still had some fun with KZ2. But it's no threat to MW2. It hasn't been the killer app Sony was hoping it'd be due to quality and, yes, sales.


Last edited by Hezzron on 12/26/2009 5:23:31 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:20:59 PM

I can't argue with you, I only compare them because they are FPS. Yes one is sci fi and one is just fi. It will depend again on preference. All that I'm saying is Guerilla's game is superior in the technical sense. I don't even think that is an opinion its basically fact, look at the enemy AI and the graphics. I mean play them back to back, I played KZ2 for an hour then MW2 for an hour (On PS3 then 360 respectively) and MW2 really looked pretty last gen.

Most people would agree though that MW2 has the more involved online. I agree about the stories too, KZ2 is really basically a wham bam shock force assault and fails to add much emotion. But you are talking to an RPG nut here and compared to your Final Fantasies and your Star Oceans I see no emotion at all in any FPS.

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:42:29 PM

@ WEWM - I also feel that quality is subjective. You can ask any grandpa if he thinks Wii Bowling is "quality" and he's going to answer "Yes. There has never been a better video game version of bowling." You might ask another person if they think Batman Arkham Asylum is quality and they'll say "Absolutely" because he's thrilled to have a real Batman game, whereas another will say "Look at the screen tearing" and think a lot less of the game.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 5:56:02 PM

Speaking of quality Alien did you ever find a copy of Demon's Souls?

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Alienange
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 7:42:15 PM

No I didn't. I'm still one to buy over rent and the only time I'll buy second hand is if it's from a quality gamer's home. You don't get that kind of guarantee at Gamestop so I'm still holding out for a deal on a new copy.

No rush either because I heard it's insanely hard. Ninja Gaiden Sigma II is insanely hard and I saw it for $19.99 just today. I'm hoping for something similar for DS somewhere down the line.

Was that too long? I felt like I rambled there... Anyway, not a fan of your new avatar. That movie was terrible. The parking lot antics are much better and nothing trumps katana swords.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Saturday, December 26, 2009 @ 9:53:53 PM

Sorry but Chev Chelios rules

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just2skillf00l
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 3:05:39 AM
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Sales should definitely be overlooked when deciding GOTY. As some of the earlier commenters have said, many people follow suit. Many of us have been guilty of following suit at least once in our lives, including me. My last purchase, MW2, was a result of following the crowd. Most of my friends on PSN are COD fanatics. My purchase was simply a way of staying connected with my online buddies. I'm sure many other people bought this game for the very same reason. Although I boasted before the release of MW2 that I would never buy another COD title, I easily shattered that promise when I realized that my multiplayer action with my buddies would cease. I also wanted to see how great the sequel to MW would be.

However, to me, this game, no better yet, this franchise is getting old. They may add new guns, and other elements to the game but in the end, it's just another modern FPS. This is my last purchase from the COD franchise because I believe there are other games out there that I should try before settling down for something unoriginal and repetitive. I love the game but I feel with every new release there is no true new experience.

Sorry for the rant but back to the point, GOTY should be determined by the quality of the title and not by the amount of copies it sells.

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mbg77
Sunday, December 27, 2009 @ 12:29:46 PM
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Hi,

To answer your question Ben: I my opinion GOTY awards should not be based on sales but on the quality of the game. Not every bestseller game is of good quality and vice versa.


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