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Squaresoft Is Dead, So Just Accept It

I don't know why it took me so long to realize it. But the latest depressing news finally switched on the light bulb:

Squaresoft is dead. Square Enix isn't what Squaresoft became; it wasn't a metamorphosis or a transformation, it was a death and a new life.

We all have to stop comparing current Square Enix business practices and products to the Squaresoft that ruled gaming back in the late '90s. The world has changed, the industry has changed, and when Squaresoft and Enix came together, it was inevitable that the old Square would change. That's what I thought. But it wasn't a change, it was far worse; it was a replacement of ideas and ideals.

This makes things easier. This means we don't have to look back on the unbelievable Final Fantasy franchise in the PS1 days, and games like Chrono Cross, Vagrant Story, Legend of Mana, Parasite Eve, and Xenogears and compare them to Square Enix games of today. It's not like comparing EA then and now. Obviously, we're talking about two entirely different companies, so why get all depressed? Squaresoft was amazing and Square Enix is okay with occasional flashes of brilliance. Brilliance that might be comparable to the unrelated Squaresoft.

Yes, I get that many of the same people are still around at S-E. I understand that. But they're hardly the "same people;" they could be aliens in human costumes but chances are, they just changed their entire approach and structure and hence, they left Squaresoft forever behind. So just leave the good ol' Square to history and memory, and we'll leave a bouquet of flowers on the tombstone. We loved you and we miss you.

Done.

Tags: squaresoft, square enix, final fantasy, ffvii remake

11/28/2011 9:21:14 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (95 posts)

Vitron
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 9:52:22 PM
Reply

I can live with that. Not like they're the only giving life to my games anyway. I mean LV5 is still here and they don't give a damn about criticism on JRPGs.





Last edited by Vitron on 11/28/2011 9:56:15 PM

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Qwarktast1c
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 9:59:29 PM
Reply

kitase's statements worry me over the HD update for FFX......

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:27:37 PM

Yeah, but recent evidence suggests they are becoming lazy as well as incompetent, so FFX will probably get a spit polish and no gameplay changes. The only change to the game besides the graphics I'd appreciate is some lip syncing.

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Qwarktast1c
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:47:47 PM

that would be good and addition of international content wouldn't be bad either

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Zemus101
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 12:14:50 AM

I find the battle system is pretty modern-like anyways. No proper ATB. Just a player/enemy battle order. I loved it then, and I'm sure I'd love going through it again now.

Yes, better (or any?) lip-syncing please.

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Jawknee
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:15:29 PM
Reply

The previous Kitase/FFVII article irked me so I have nothing but nasty things to say about Square. I'll just leave it at.

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bentl78
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:17:48 PM
Reply

I am very confused, and I have wanted to comment for awhile now reading so much of the sqaurenix hate.. and this is not just to ben, but to a lot of the readers on PSXextreme, as I have been reading a lot of the negative comments..

From what i know, or i can find, Sqaure enix, have only made the following games for the PS3...


Final Fantasy XIII
Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Just Cause 2
Deus Ex: Human Revolutinn
Front Mission Evolved
NIER
Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light
Dungeon Siege III

so out of these games... we have.. just cause 2, deus ex, lara croft, and dungeon siege.. all from OTHER STUDIOS.. and.. dues ex, lara croft all got pretty high ratings from what i remember..

so in this generation..
the only games squarenix jp created internally was.. FFXIII
while you were disappointed, you felt "it was a good game, if it wasn't called final fantasy"

Nier: which you gave a decent score to.

and Star Ocean did above average in most reviews... 7`8 range

Front mission which flopped..

so i dont know what all this squareenix hate is about.

You say, you rather have sqaureenix stay with the same "long development cycle".. then crank out games fast like MW. Do you see the problem ben? PS3 has been out since 2006... and till now they have only 1 final fantasy game out.

Sqaurenix is a company that wants to make money. Of course they want to get more games out in a faster time. You say they should take their time and make the games better... they took.. what? 4+ years to make final fantasy 13.. but a lot of people still hate it and were unhappy. what is wrong with wanting to speed up development cycles?

XIII-2 they promised to fix many problems, and from what i read from gamespot, ign, and kotaku, it seems they are pretty optimistic...
but a lot of people are just completely saying "no way! i wont give them a chance, they are stupid"


as for your last article about ffvii remake...I totally get what kitase was trying to say.
.. if ffvii was to be updated.. they will need to pull in a lot of the resources, people, money, and time, in order to make a PS1 game look like a PS3 game, and as a game creator, if they do that, he would like to update the game and make it a "100 percent current gen" game, but he doesn't want to mess with it because people who are diehard fans, will complain like crazy...

so with limited resources, they would rather make new games, as a game creator...
and not put the resources and mess with peopel's memeories, or simply go the easy way out and be lazy just making a PS1 game a HD port. (like what most other companies are doing..).

I dont mean to troll, nor do i mean to be rude, I just want to point out what I think, just my piece of mind...

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Jawknee
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:27:06 PM

It's not that hard. Compare Square from all other generations to this gen and it's easy to see why we hate them so. They have competely lost touch and instead of making good JRPG's(which is what they're good at) they are focused on pandering to western gamers by buying western who only make decent to mediocre games and dumbing down their golden goose to make it more "accessible" to try and capture whatever demographic they feel they are missing out on.

If Nintendo suddenly abandoned everything they do right, do you think their fans would have the same reaction? Of course they would. This is no different in my opinion.

And you're not rude. Your comment was one and was actually a joy to read.

Last edited by Jawknee on 11/28/2011 10:28:01 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:31:21 PM

Don't worry about games they publish, look at what the nosedive they have taken this gen, not only in terms of what former fans want but in their profit which is sunk.

I challenge you to defend their moves this gen in a thoughtful way.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:37:26 PM

We appreciate the in-depth reply, but you have to understand where the fans are coming from. No offense, but it doesn't sound like you were familiar with the Squaresoft we're referring to.

If you compare Squaresoft's library of work to Square Enix's, it's laughable. Sure, FFXIII was a great game and I thought Nier was underrated and under-appreciated but in the days of the PS1, everything Squaresoft touched turned to gold. They even did a fantastic side-scrolling space shooter, Einhander.

In short, we've gone from a company where fans like myself would simply see the name "Squaresoft" on a box and buy it immediately, no questions asked. These days...well, that's why we're upset.

S-E isn't a bad developer or publisher. They're just not comparable to Squaresoft.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/28/2011 10:37:44 PM

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Zemus101
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 12:18:41 AM

Some people just need to go play a game like FFVI to truly realize how great Square used to be.

Hell, as Ben mentioned, just look at the side-projects like Chrono Cross, Xenogears, and Parasite Eve. I mean come on.

I'm far from giving up on Square-Enix. As Bentl78 mentioned, we haven't really seen what SE can do this gen. I still have high hopes. And their PSP games have all been stellar.

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bentl78
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:24:29 AM

Actually I have been a big fan of squaresoft since a long time ago.
I played FF1,3,4,6,7,8,9,10,10-2,13
i played chrono trigger and chrono cross, xenogears, parasite eve, kingdom hearts 1 & 2, secret of mana, breath of fire, saga frontier.. i know there is more, i just cant remember,

Ben is right, it seemed that everything square touched turned to gold..and i used to pick up a game just cause it had their logo on it, but actually.. did you guys actually look at the amount of game squaresoft developed and published back in the super nes and playstation era? and how many never even made it to the US? if you really Wikipedia it.. u will see there are tons people have never even made it.

game development is much much harder nowadays as you guys know, a developer can crank out games with less people and less budget back in the days.. and RPGs in consoles are dominated by JRPGS, we grew up loving it... and there is always the nostalgia factors..

As i mentioned in a post couple weeks ago, i pointed out that, when developers give you the same stuff over and over, critics are gonna bash it and say "this is always the same" as a game creator, like an artist, they are always gonna look for ways to innovate and do something better. Perhaps there are mis steps, perhaps there are wrong directions taken, but as a company squarenix took on a huge project and try to make FF XIII one of the best looking games on the console.. i think most of you guys will agree it is still at the moment one of the best looking games... yes it was too linear, yes it had no towns, yes it could have been better..

HELLO GUYS.. thats what they are doing w/ -2..LISTENING TO THE FANS..
I read they are even making decisions and dialog choices in the game MATTER.. and who you have your party make a difference in dialogue choices. There are gonna be towns you can walk around in.. there is even gonna be a chocobo lady who acts a wandering merchant remember 'o'aka' people... MOG IS BACK omg.. how can you not love MOG!!

so you say they are not listening... yet they only made 1 FF game this gen.. yes.. it was a mistep.. but that was one mis step.. they use d a lot of their resouces to create the engine, and it looks fabulous, whats wrong with using the same engine, and improve on the problems and give you another FFX13.. which is much better. yet seems noone here even wants to see what they are doing in -2?? and automatically says "give me versus or die...." or give me kingdome hearts 3 (btw, i want both very bad also)...

what upsets me most is people who actually says they are garbage, because they messed up on one game.. which btw, is was still a 8 on metacritic.

They need to speed up their development cycles, so more games can come out.. so they can redeem their name. again.. give them a chance guys.. let them make a 2nd FF13.. and see how it goes.. let them come out w/ Versus.. keep an open mind.


Just my 2 cents. please comment :)


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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 6:08:02 AM

I still look at SE's 93% dip in projected net income last year and think,

"gee... maybe they really -are- doing something wrong."

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Ludakriss
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:07:18 AM

@bentl78

I like the way you think, man. More people should be neutral. Yet, I admit I'm one of the haters.

Funny just the other day I spoke to my friend about how in the end the "less/simple is more" formula usually comes out on top.

Sure it was a discussion on music but I think the topic is universal.

Yeah. bentl78, top man.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:16:46 AM

Sounds to me like you're just hell-bent on defending FFXIII.

Look, as far as most RPG fans are concerned, Square Enix is 0 for 1 this generation. You say it was a misstep and then say it was only "one misstep." ...but that's one hell of a misstep and Squaresoft never had one in the franchise.

Plus, if you just assemble the body of work developed/produced by Square Enix this generation and even extending into last, you're going to see numerous failed experiments.

No, they're not listening to the fans. They can say what they want; when they keep going down a path fans clearly don't want, they're not listening. End of story.

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 10:39:48 AM

@Bentl78
I totally get what you're saying. And when you take what their PR says at face value, you have a point.

But when I compare that to what is actually happening, I see something completely different. My two indicators are, 1) (as I said once) the 93% drop in projected sales and 2) The departure from a formula that was successful before it had a chance to fail.

I would 100% be on board with you -if- SE had done what SquareSoft had always done and failed. But they actually never got to that point. They literally just changed up their practices and -then- started failing. Mind you... not all out fail, of course. Some good things have come from them... but they are definitely not the success they once were. They were profitable last year still... but 93% less than what they expected to be.

For me, what makes me less likely to agree with you, is the fact that when they -have- made the changes they did... they suddenly became less successful. Despite making a few quality pieces. The old SquareSoft formula has never failed. It was just abandoned. If they were to go back to that, and THEN fail, then yeah... I'd buy what they're saying. But there is just no evidence that supports their point of view.

I needz more factz before I can buy in. You know? "listening to fans" is all well and good... but the record breaking return rate in Japan of FFXIII along with the company's 93% drop in the same year as a multitude of big name titles.... well... it's a little red-flag raising for me.

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Highlander
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:03:33 PM

Um, please scratch Star Ocean 4 off the list of things that SquEnix developed, the game was only published by them, it was developed by Tri-Ace.

SE isn't a patch on the game company that SquareSoft was. And this assertion that they are listening to the fans is complete balderdash. Had they been listening to the millions of FF fans in japan they would not have foisted that watered down piece of trash so called RPG FFXIII on the RPG audience. Was FFXIII a good game in it's own right? Perhaps. But it was an awful FF game and a terrible RPG, because it's not really an RPG. It sure as hell isn't a JRPG. Yet the audience in Japan clearly told them it wasn't what they wanted. SE's answer is to rinse and repeat.

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Yukian
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 3:01:35 PM

They developed FFVII:Crisis Core and to my knowledge it was a smashing success, although it was for the PSP, if they would've made it for the PS3 (or a port which I'm still waiting) it would've been a even prouder bearer of the FF(VII) name.

Yes it wasn't a 100% RPG, but it still had some elements that recognizes it as one. FFXIII was a big detour, which not necessarily a bad one, that somewhat tarnished the FF brand.

And reading the "Big Bosses" of Square Enix saying about short developments cycles, sequels, utilizing foreign engines for games that have Square Enix plastered on the front, going western style on their OWN games while flailing desperately in the pool of mainstream and staying away of one of THE diamonds because are "tempted" to make a Frankenstein of sorts and they KNOW that would be the death of them for sure is what makes us say what we say.

They don't NEED to make more games. We know, with their comments and directions they're taking, that they are going downhill.

Last edited by Yukian on 11/29/2011 3:03:07 PM

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bentl78
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 1:32:18 AM

Hum.. what is actually happening? As I pointed out. It took them years and years to develop a game which.. wasnt great.. yep, 1 mis step and they became 'trash'... so lets get back to. WHAT THEY HAVE DONE SO FAR. they created, Nier, and FF13. what other RPG have they created?

I am not defending sqaureenix's decisions in making FF13 the way they did.
I am just telling poeople to give FF13-2 a chance and versus a chance, and not say its crap before it came out.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 6:55:33 AM

Again... Bentl....

No one has said SE is crap.

The debate is... they aren't as great as SquareSoft, which is hardly a stretch, for all the reasons we've just stated.

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CHAOS THEORY X
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:17:49 PM
Reply

:.(...

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Oxvial
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:19:20 PM
Reply

I accepted this when they focused more on release XIII-2 than Versus.

I don't care about them.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:26:23 PM
Reply

I'd like to quote Cloud addressing Sephiroth in Advent Children...

"Stay where you belong... in my memories."

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:38:11 PM

Excellent.

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shadowscorpio
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:44:14 AM

Ironically enough. Take a quote from a movie that Square-enix helped produce help get over the travesty that has become Square -enix this gaming generation.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:46:47 PM

Irony is my strong suit :)

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Fane1024
Thursday, December 01, 2011 @ 6:39:22 AM

A wrinkle-free suit.

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Riku994
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:27:59 PM
Reply

If Versus doesn't live up to my expectations, my final hope for SE lies with KH3... Which is another 6 years off >_<

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Jawknee
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 10:49:29 PM

Has KH3 even been announced?

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Riku994
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:14:52 AM

It's "announced" in the sense that Nomura said he can't work on it until Versus is done.

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Bonampak
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 12:16:42 PM

Don't forget about Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance.

Nomura mentioned that that game will include a storyline that will lead up directly to KH3.

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Riku994
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 4:12:02 PM

I don't really count KH3D, even though I do plan on getting it. I know I love the KH series though, but some of the handheld titles are bad (CoM, Coded). That's why I'm not putting a lot of weight on 3D. If the real KH3 disappoints me, then there's a problem.

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Excelsior1
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 11:06:40 PM
Reply

They are not dead. What they are is a company that has changed or evolved into something that long time fans do not like. It's pretty obvious to me that Square has made a business decision and they are willing to risk alienating long term fans becuase they think they will make more than enough new fans to offset this. I think they are flat wrong in this regard, but only time will tell. For their sake the less this Kitase guy says the better. I think I found somebody at Square I like dislike more than even Wada.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 11:20:16 PM

They're dead. Been dead for years.

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JMO_INDY2
Monday, November 28, 2011 @ 11:58:08 PM
Reply

Even though I'm not, nor was I ever, a huge Final Fantasy fan, it's still sad to see such a storied and legendary franchise die such a tragic death. It's a shame to see such a historic developer fall so hard and so fast.

Last edited by JMO_INDY2 on 11/28/2011 11:58:37 PM

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keiichimorisato
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 12:18:36 AM
Reply

well tetsua nomura is still doing well with the games he is in charge of KH is a great franchise with only one flop (CoM) VS XIII looks promising he even doesn't want to release it until he is fully satisfied with the game, if you have seen the game it already looks like it should and could be released today and it would get great reviews, it looks like a finished game but he wants to make sure the combat is polished the graphics are polished. i know graphics don't make the game but there have been a lot of attention to detail. i love games with lots and lots of clutter it makes it feel more alive and it needs to have lots of people too that is why LA noir seems boring not enough people. and how GTA IV seems barren not enough clutter

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Mamills
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 12:44:57 AM
Reply

lol, only now u guys come to this conclusion?
squaresoft has been dead for a long time.
they have none of the original creators of final fantasy on hand anymore.
and quite frankly they are not listening to their fans whatsoever.
FF13 sucked in my opinion (I Youtubed the ending cuz it was such a bore.)
and ff13-2 yea, not even going to bother with that game.
and we all know versus 13 is not going to come out this gen, instead it will be released next gen so then can do multiplat. simply because too much money and time has been spent for it to be exclusive.

andas for the beloved FF7 remake that everyone asks for... Be careful what you wish for...

Last edited by Mamills on 11/29/2011 12:48:29 AM

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pillz81
Thursday, December 01, 2011 @ 10:42:48 AM

I haven't even youtubed the ending.

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BigBoss4ever
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:01:29 AM
Reply

Squeeeeeenix, Die and I have no tear for you cuz it is yourself dug your tomb, so go rotten with it Wada & Co., peace.

Last edited by BigBoss4ever on 11/29/2011 1:01:55 AM

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gungrave
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:42:29 AM
Reply

I would love to see a Xenogears remake. Those loading times would kill me back in the day.

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___________
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:59:26 AM
Reply

i could of told you that years ago!
though you have to admit some of the other things they have turned out have been pretty good.
i was really worried when they took over eidos, was worried they would try chance the franchises too much but they havent.
JC2 turned out fantastic, deus ex human revolutions pretty good, and tomb raider looks freaking amazing!
hitman absolution does not look too bad either.
so its not all bad news.

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Lawless SXE
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:19:57 AM
Reply

Funny coincidence, James Blunt's "Goodbye My Lover" came on as I read this article... It just seems so... apt.

I like to think that nothing and no-one ever really dies. Memory and Legacy are two things that can never really be taken away, and one only needs to look right here at PSXE to see that there is a flame still burning for the SquareSoft of old. It is a whisper of hope, but hope nonetheless, and as long as that exists... SquareSoft is not dead. It may be changed beyond any semblance of what it once was. It may be mutilated and turned inside out, but there is a chance, so long as there is hope.

Wada may be a bell-end. Kitase may have lost his way, Sakaguchi and Matsuno may be gone, Toriyama may be incompetent and Nomura may be unaffiliated with the rest, but there is hope. Maybe I'm just blowing hot air...

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 5:23:49 AM
Reply

Does this mean we will get less articles about what FF could have been but is not and will not be from now on? :)

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 6:14:55 AM

If the folks content with negative change have their way, yes. If the folks not passionate about gaming and it's storied history have their way, yes. And for people who hate letting others have a voice have their way, yes.

So hopefully, as SE continues to make public statements, we will continue to get news about it with editorials with a professional point-of-view to support it.

Call me what you will... but I still think when someone like Kitase says something publically, it qualifies as gaming news. Which qualifies an editorial if the editor-in-chief here feels so moved to comment on it.

It would be really stupid to just stop writing about it as comments continue to be made by SE. What morons do you know of would want something like that?

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 6:38:09 AM

I meant it as a snide remark more than a discussion and I don't want to pick a fight with you, but since you brought it up:

The world of gaming is much, much more than something that happened on another console a decade ago.
And public announcements and comments are made from gaming companies and their emplyees _every_single_day_. And when even FF/SE fans say that SE has lost all relevance - some even say they are DEAD (would you believe?) - well how relevant is then this Kitase?

I don't feel like a moron for seeing it this way. But then again, do any moron think of themselves as one? I don't think so. So from that reasoning I probably am one. In addition, this site is infected with fans of Japanese developers. So no, I don't really expect this to end. As I said, just a remark. From a moron. I can live with that. ;)

But this is all in my humble opinion, of course. I hold only one of many different opinions. And you guys passion *is* amusing to watch, don't get me wrong!

But don't you agree: It looks like this article is somehow a kind of final conclusion. It looks conclusive? And... Well... That is fine with me. :)


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/29/2011 6:48:56 AM

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 7:15:52 AM

But Kitase isn't just some employee of a gaming company. He's pretty near the top. We also get articles when someone like Jaffe or Kojima speak up about something popular. So I don't see how when someone as high up as Kitase makes a comment about one of the most popular games in history doesn't qualify as legitimate news.

Especially when fans wanting a remake is no small secret. When they ever-so-coyly asked if fans wanted a remake, their twitter page literally broke because of the heavy response.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 11/29/2011 7:20:12 AM

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 7:45:23 AM

Oh man. It all of a sudden struck me: You are absolutely right! I *am* a moron, and nothing but a fool.

Cause is what I do right here any different from those utterly annoying cod-hater messages posted in every single cod-related article, like some broken record? Probably not!

I shall remember this day.


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/29/2011 7:48:42 AM

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Excelsior1
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:29:47 AM

@beamboom

That is an excellent observation. Ironic that people say Square is dead but then continue to go and on about them. I get it but it feels this topic has been beaten into the ground already. Square is dead, been dead for years...until the new story next week telling us how much you do not care again. I too hope this article is a final conclussion. It sounds conclusive to me as well. So I guess I will leave a flower, and then go buy some games from a developer who still knows how to make the types of games I like. Unfortunately these days that is usually not a game made in Japan.

Just an observation to throw out there. Skyrim is the 1st western made game to get a perfect score from Famitsu. Times have really changed.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:33:21 AM

You may not have noticed, Beamboom, but this is a very common, very frequently discussed, and very passionately charged topic of discussion all around the Internet.

From the standpoint of someone who runs a video game site, I think we should be trying to tap into that whenever possible.

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:46:15 AM

To be honest I have not noticed that this is as frequently discussed on any other gaming site that I regularly visit other than psxe, no. Not saying it isn't, just that it's not amongst the sites on my bookmark list. not to this extent. It's pretty obvious that this is something you are very passionate about, and thus often find to be relevant content.

But that does not matter the slightest. I don't want you to only mirror what the other sites write about anyway. You got your audience, and I fall outside the demographics for this particular topic. I can live with that. No problem.

I do however begin to sense that also some of the other, more relevant readers (topic-wise) seem to be getting their dose of articles about how SE suck or Squaresoft ruled too. But I may be wrong.

But regardless: This place would be a lot duller without your passion and enthusiasm. Keep'em coming, boy. This really was just a silly remark from my part. And as admitted, I am bordering on being as annoying as the mandatory COD hate posts now. So please: To Be Ignored. ;)


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/29/2011 9:51:35 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:53:03 AM

I'm not referring to articles on other sites, I'm talking about forum and community discussions, which I believe should be brought to the forefront more when sites cover games. If Cosmo and Glamour are going to follow the stars who get the most gossip, why exactly shouldn't gaming sources cover topics and games that get the most discussion?

It's not news in that respect. It's simply catering to an audience's desires; it's producing something more official that represents a big chunk of common fan conversation.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/29/2011 9:54:11 AM

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 10:51:31 AM

Why remember this discussion? When have I ever had CoD hate? I think I have a pretty realistic point of view on that franchise, and I hardly boycott it. Do I think it's the best thing gaming has to offer like the sales suggest? no, of course not. Do I think it's good entertainment for a social and multiplayer crowd? Absolutely. I have lots of friends I play MW3 with. I also played Black Ops and MW2 with them too. In fact, BO and MW2 are both games I have platinumed. And I will likely do the same with MW3.

So I guess I'm not sure where you are going with the whole "remembering this conversation" bit.


If we expect articles to be written when Jaffe says something about Twisted Metal or GoW, or when Kojima says something about Metal Gear Solid, or when Mark Healey says something about LBP or whatever he does, or when David Cage says something about his outlook on todays games....

Then yeah... i think when someone like Kitase or Nomura says something about the most popular Final Fantasy title ever made in regards to the most rampant decade old remake rumor.... yeah.... to me, that's news.... whether you like it or not.

I didn't say you were a moron, specifically. But obviously anyone who disagrees with this as being worthy of writing or reading is awfully borderline.

In fact, to anyone "sick" of reading about it... just... freakin' don't read anything. ESPECIALLY if you aren't interested in the franchise to begin with!

I don't read every article written. And frankly, I'm not sure why anyone would read about something they have ZERO interest in, anyways.

If anything is more tired than complaining about these articles.... it's the folks complaining that there's another article about it.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 11/29/2011 10:55:03 AM

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 11:49:20 AM

Under: I didn't have you in mind with that cod comment - I meant cod comments in general. I honestly do find it annoying that there is not a single article about COD without a handful of "I hate COD" and "only idiots play COD" kind of comments tailing it. It's just sooo old now.

It was not directed towards you at all. You are even playing the game so how could I? And it was not meant as irony either - I mean it! So I meant I will remember this as in I will avoid behaving like the COD haters in the future.
In other words, I meant it literary, not directed at anyone but myself. :)


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/29/2011 11:50:53 AM

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BikerSaint
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:39:58 PM

Underdog,

<<<<I don't read every article written. And frankly, I'm not sure why anyone would read about something they have ZERO interest in, anyways.>>>>

I know that isn't directed to me, and I know you're certainly not making a dig, but I thought I'd like to give my own insight on that thought, as it would relate to my own self.

Now to start off with, I have never been able to get into true RPG's no matter how freaking hard I've tried(and believe me, there is nothing more I'd love, than to love a true RPG).

Just an FYI here, so far I own and have at least tried every one of these...
PS1 - FF7, FF Tactics,
PS2 - FF7 Dirge of Cererus, FFX,FFX-2, FFXI, FFXII,
PS3 - FXXIII
plus, way too numerous other Squaresoft RPG titles in my collections to mention too.

But for whatever reason(s) that even I don't rightfully know myself, I have at least tried every one of them with all the same results, that even though the graphics were a marvel to watch, I was bored with them within a hour.
Granted that, I still take a few of them out yearly hoping that maybe as I got older, I could appreciate them & RPG's as a whole a bit more, but alas, it's always been the same result.

Now the reason I just said all of this is so you'll have a back-story of my own RPG experiences, before I replied to that part of the post I placed at the top.

So as a gamer, I feel that I "DO" have to read every single thread & post(just as long as the post isn't a mass of bunched up, jangled mess of words with bad, or no, punctuation, and with a 1000+ words all lumped into 1 damned sentence), whether it's for a whole genre, or just a single game that I can't seem to ever get into, and I still will read them for a few reasons...

So right off the top of my bearded gray matter...

1. Hopefully just maybe some day soon, that there will wind up being one RPG I can finally sink my baby teeth into.

2. Receiving information. So in that respect, I can feel that I at least know a little of what the hell rest of you are talking about, and just maybe be able to live a part of the game through everybody else's thoughts & comments

3. I want to know what everyone thinks about all genres, or of a franchise, or even single game.

4. To me, knowledge is power.

Last edited by BikerSaint on 11/29/2011 2:49:43 PM

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 3:31:23 PM

Ugh I wish I didn't start this thread.

/note to self: STFU and smile!

:)

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Lotusflow3r
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 7:23:28 AM
Reply

One too many i think.

You say you don't care, but que the 4 more rants tomorrow, eh?

Lots of great RPGs coming from Japan now, i want to talk about them...

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Ludakriss
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:06:48 AM

Lotus my man, you've got one funky profile picture. Reminds me of Tiger. An alter ego to Eddy Gordo in Tekken 3.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:34:00 AM

And someone else who doesn't read an article.

Does it say anywhere about "not caring?" Is that really the point?

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Lotusflow3r
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:53:12 PM

@ Ben: Sorry Mr Defence, i actually did read your 156th RANT, but you write so much stuff about Enix it's become broken record and thus a muddle. They're dead? Done? .....hmm.
As i said, que the next "Done" Enix rants...

@ Ludakriss: lol thanks, but it's Sly Stone. A musical genius responsible for many things you hear today....he created whole genres, including a key foundation in Funk.

If anyone don't know about Sly Stone.....better ask somebody. ;)

Last edited by Lotusflow3r on 11/29/2011 3:02:49 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 4:07:56 PM

I've done a grand total of 3 Square Enix-related editorials in 2012, genius. 3. Anything else is just news-related.

For the sake of a ratio, I think there have been about 250 articles of the editorial type in the past year on PSXE.

Find a calculator if you need to. And then maybe reality will kick in.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/29/2011 4:09:28 PM

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Lotusflow3r
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 6:54:00 PM

Okay-dokay, Skip!

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:22:27 PM

At least I can count.

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Excelsior1
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:45:08 PM

Mr. Defence huh? Ben can get a bit touchy if anyone is even slightly critical. There is no doubt about that. I would have thought running a website would give one some pretty thick skin, but I guess it depends on the individual.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 10:00:16 PM

Be critical all you want. If you can't even be accurate, you're going to be called on it.

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dbyzforce
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:18:05 AM
Reply

I am thoroughly disappointed on how Square Enix is treated long time loyal fans. Seems they just want to appeal more to mainstream, but looks like they're alienating there fan base instead....

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main_event05
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:28:59 AM
Reply

Where is a good Yakuza threat when you need one??

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Excelsior1
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:58:10 AM
Reply

Apparently Square is working on a massive open world action RPG for next gen sytems. It is reportedly helmed by Dragonquest 9's producer Ryutaro Ichimara and is beeing developed internaly by Square. It is a Unreal powered game which makes sense since we know Square recently liscensed Unreal. According to illustrations in Famitsu it is clearly targeting the overseas market.

Good, now maybe they will use this title for the mainstream appeal that they are so desperately seeking from the western market instead of trying to twist FF into something that longtime fans do not want. I can dream, right?

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Beamboom
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:34:18 AM

Just out of curiosity: What is the definition of an action RPG? Is Skyrim considered action rpg? WKC? Are the mmorpgs also action rpgs?

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 11:03:17 AM

There are Strategy RPG's, Turn-based RPG's, and Action RPG's.

I can understand confusion about what Strategy is if all you have ever heard is the terminology. Something like the original Front Mission games or Final Fantasy Tactics or Dynasty Warrior Tactics are examples of Strategy RPG's.

Turn-based are the Final Fantasies for FFX and earlier, Dragon Quest/Warrior, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Xenogears, etc. etc.

Action RPG's are most western rpgs like Dragon Age or Skyrim, but also games like Kingdom Hearts, FF Crisis Core, and that sort of thing.

Many MMO's like FFXI, WoW, or Single player games like FFXII are hybrids of sorts that mix action with turnbased. Some of those games even give you options to make it more like one way or the other.

There is no governing body that dictates genre, unfortunately, so some developers have been able to call their game an RPG simply by creating RPG-like elements to their otherwise linear all out action experiences. Since everything these days has a story, that line is further blurred. There was a time when story could actually help determine if something was more of an RPG!!

Anyways, it's not cut and dry, but if you look into enough of those titles, it becomes much easier to differentiate between the different forms.

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Highlander
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 1:04:55 PM

WKC/WKC2 is/are not action based RPGs, they are actually turn based. not as traditional as others, but still very much turn based.

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Beamboom
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 7:20:26 AM

... But it is still a bit unclear to me what exactly "turn based" is, hehe!

Let me use an example: In Old Republic (the new BioWare mmorpg) I find the fight system to be kinda like wkc where there are different attacks that all has a timer that needs to be "recharged" before you can use that attack again, and you build up a meter via the smaller attacks to gain power to do the special attacks (who then in turn empty that bar again). Is this then a turn-based mmorpg?


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/30/2011 7:21:56 AM

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Underdog15
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 12:54:06 PM

Don't know cause I've never played it.

But here's a question... are hits and misses (along with blocks and critical hits) dictated by statistics or co-ordination? That's another indicator of a non-action RPG.

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Beamboom
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 1:31:25 PM

I believe the answer to that is statistics, although I'm not sure what you mean by coordination. It does not matter where you stand and fight, that's what you mean right? As long as the enemy is within range of the weapon that's all that matters.

You do of course choose what attack to start once the timer is out (you don't sit back and watch, but participate during the entire battle) and also some attacks takes longer than others to "cool down" too. But if you win or lose depends on a combination of stats, how you play the available attacks/skills, and an element of randomness within given min/max limits.


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/30/2011 1:40:00 PM

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Fane1024
Thursday, December 01, 2011 @ 6:59:21 AM

Underdog,

Most of your examples of Action-RPGs actually use statistics to determine hits/damage/etc., which is (in part) why in previous discussions I argued that WRPGs like those made by Bethesda and Bioware fit into a different category than Diablo-style Action-RPGs. Just as SRPGs and traditional JRPGs are both turn-based but distinct, so too are WRPGs and "A-RPGs" both real-time but distinct.

In fact, the blurry lines between the categories (which you note with regard to MMORPGs) is why I argued that categorization isn't entirely useful.

Beamboom,

In my book, Action-RPGs are pretty button-mashy, with somewhat limited RPG elements (usually heavily focused on an item system with constant excessive, meaningless "upgrades" rather than on skills).

Last edited by Fane1024 on 12/1/2011 7:09:24 AM

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Beamboom
Thursday, December 01, 2011 @ 11:55:18 AM

These blurry lines are very interesting of you to point out, Fane1024. Cause often when there is talk about this and that technicality in a kind of RPG I think, "but... that's how it works in <insert wrpg here> too?".

But how do you then describe a turn-based and strategic RPG, Fane? And based on how I describe Old Republic above, how would you classify that RPG (if possible); strategic or turn-based? Or is mmorpg best described as a genre of it's own? Cause I think there are *obvious* similarities between a mmorpg (Old Republic is what I would call ultra-typical mmorpg) and WKC. And if WKC is turn-based, well then these rpgs must be too!


Last edited by Beamboom on 12/1/2011 11:57:46 AM

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Underdog15
Thursday, December 01, 2011 @ 12:54:06 PM

Here's an example of what a more hardcore turn-based mechanic is like in my all-time favorite game ever made. It's a little short and wide, but is otherwise of decent quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZatF4aEYQvg

For a strategy rpg, see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz_cezb_x6M&feature=related

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Vivi_Gamer
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:11:55 AM
Reply

I think you're being a bit too harsh towards S-E (No suprise, it's all I have been hearing from this site for the past 2 years.) S-E are capable of releasing great titles. I still stand by XIII, I really enjoyed it and feel it was a huge leap into the right direction from the abysmal X-2 & XII (I'm not getting into a fact/opinion arguement so don't even start it.)

Also what about Crisis Core? just because it was on PSP, your going to dismiss it? CC was a fantastic achievement, it deleivered a worth while side story following Zack. After failure of DoC (Which I did not mind the gameplay of, but the narrative was diabolical.) Crisis Core was such a suprise and a real joy.

Another one of my favourite gaems this gen has been Nier, while it is an action RPG I still feel it beats Fable by a long shot. to have an RPG which such replay value is a treat.

With The 3rd Birthday, the story was a bit sloppy at times, but I thought they did a fantastic job with the gameplay. especially with the PSP's difficulty in lacking the 2nd analogue stick. I have played other action games Peace Walker, Resistance Retribution, but the control scheme on The 3rd Birthday is so, so good.

But back to FF, I understand how some may be dissapointed by XIII, as I was devistated by XII, but this hate is going a bit too far. I'm looking through XIII-2 and I have to say I also fear the direction it is going:

QTE - I liked the fast paced battle system of XIII, but this is going too far into the action RPG root.

Mog Clock - In I - X we had no enemies on screen and a transition into battles. XII they were all on the map no transition. XIII we had monsters on screen and a transition in battle. XIII -2 They dont appear on the screen untill nearby, and then you go into a transition... Why? Either have no enemies on the screen, or show them spread out on the map. This system does not make sense.

Multiple Endings - I do not know how this will work, but if it is anything like X-2. Where you ending is based on a perecentage of completion I will be furious. I have stated many times I think interactive narratives are the way forward. I loved it in Catherine and Heavy Rain, but for RPG's.... I don't know I just think the games scale is too grand for multiple endings.

What I really want from XIII-2 is for it's world to be properly represented through the story, not hidding all the depth in a datalog.

I am also hesistant about Serah for the lead, I her character wasn't particually memorable in XIII. One thing XIII got right IMO was the character charisma, even though they lacked depth, they all felt like individuals it was the chemistry of the cast which I found so exciting through out the game.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:17:53 AM

This has nothing to do with Square Enix individually. This article is Square Enix vs. Squaresoft.

And it really doesn't matter in the slightest what you think personally. Factually, that comparison is laughable.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/29/2011 9:18:22 AM

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Vivi_Gamer
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:33:50 AM

Ben, I don't think you can claim to have no personal opinion on the matter, with your weekily 'S-E hate' articles. I think it goes a bit beyond stating facts...

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:35:13 AM

Okay. You locate for me a veteran RPG fan who says Square Enix is better than Squaresoft. Hell, they don't even have to be an RPG fan; find ANYONE who played games then and now and see if they'll say Square Enix produces better games than Squaresoft.

Please do. Then you can say it isn't a fact and just my opinion.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 11/29/2011 9:36:11 AM

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Excelsior1
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 9:59:17 AM

@ultima

I agree that Square is still capable of making great games. A great FF game? I'm not so sure about that anymore. I'll just hold out hopes for a decent one. I also enjoyed FF13 way more than 12 but that's just me. At least 13 had some personality when compared to the dry feeling of FF12.

I share your concern about Serah. She just seems so fragile and you are correct. She was not exactly the most compelling character in FF13.

As for this Square hate? It's getting somewhat tiresome. That's just my humble opinion. A lot of chatter about a company that is apparently dead...been dead for years. There was a tone of finalty to this article so maybe this topic can be put to bed for awhile.

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Vivi_Gamer
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 10:06:58 AM

Surely thats just an RPG Veterans opinion though ;) If we're just going by fact, XIII must be at the top as it is the fastest selling title in the FF franchise apparently. Surely that source is more reliable than reviewers as all they're doing is stating their opinion on the title.

Now do you see why I get annoyed every time I say something about FF (specifically XIII) your reply is 'OPINION INVALID'...

@ Excelsior1

Maybe it's just because Serah wasn't even a party memeber in XIII and was absent for most of the game. She just doesn't seem suitable for the leading role. I just can't see myself connecting with her at all. I think the next FF needs to have a lead character again. I just played VIII, even though Squall too kover the main plot, his story is so memorable.

As for this being the last negative article we hear about S-E from here... Well I doubt it very much.

Last edited by Vivi_Gamer on 11/29/2011 10:12:07 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 10:14:06 AM

Well, then I suppose you're just saying all the critics and all the RPG fans are wrong. That's fine.

And FFXIII was the first multiplatform title in an industry that has grown about four-fold since the early days of Final Fantasy. So yeah, it just might be the fastest selling FF.

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Underdog15
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 11:05:17 AM

I'm actually pretty sure it's been mentioned that their hand-held market has been pretty high quality.

Consoles is another issue.

Also, you can't forget that 93% drop in projected profits.


@Ultima
No one has said the Square Enix is a bad company. But it cannot be refuted that they are not as good as Square Soft. A simple history lesson and examination of market share would quickly prove that.

From that standpoint, it is cold-hard fact.

SquareSoft was literally -THE- console gaming giant in the industry. Even Activision/Blizzard was just a little guppy compared to them back in the day.

Now, they are just another developer. They do some nice things from time to time, absolutely. But they are not the powerhouse they once were. 10-15 years ago, the entire industry, critics, journalists, and gamers alike, bowed to them.

I'm ok with acknowledging the good things SE has done, but they are 100% definitely not the industry TITAN... nay... behemoth... nay... BAHAMUT.... that SquareSoft was.

Not from a critical standpoint. Not from an opinionated standpoint. Not from a journalistic standpoint. Not from a monetary standpoint. Not from a shareholder standpoint.... Not from any standpoint. It's just sort of... the way it is.


Oh yeah... and in a multi-platform market that should allow for many times more sales, they will -NEVER-.... EVER have FFXIII come -CLOSE- to touching the sales that FFVII achieved.... which was exclusive to only 1 console. FFVII's strategy guide alone has achieved 40% of the sales FFXIII has done so far across 2 major consoles. And the return rate of FFXIII? staggering.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 11/29/2011 11:14:34 AM

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Lotusflow3r
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:57:41 PM

*sigh*

Chris D is probably quoting like a mother again....

Last edited by Lotusflow3r on 11/29/2011 2:59:03 PM

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 2:59:30 PM
Reply

I loved FFXII, everything about it.

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Riku994
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 4:20:24 PM

I liked FF12 aswell, but to be fair it was also my first FF. After I beat it I played a lot of them. I own 1-3, 7, 12 and 13. I've at least played an hour of every FF except 5 6 and 11.. I don't like 2, i don't really have opinions on 3 and 4, 7 is awesome, I don't really like 8, I haven't spent enough time on 10.. Over-all, I do like the older FF's better, so I feel it's fair for me to say that FF12/13 have strayed from the path, but 13 did it way harder than 12. I liked 12's LITERALLY seamless transitions into battle, its huge areas, and it's epic scale. I haven't even finished FF13 yet, though I plan to some day.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 4:21:53 PM

That's because it was actually an RPG.

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Ludicrous_Liam
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 4:40:41 PM
Reply

Haha, I can just sit back and let all this blow over; I've never played a game by Square Enix.

I think some developers just come into their own in certain console generations - Atari back in the 80's, SE in the PS1 days, PolyPhony in the PS2 days and NaughtyDog in the now. And those companies just don't replicate what they did in past generations. I mean, let's be honest, ND were never the best in the PS1/PS2 days. Granted, they made genrally great games, but nothing on the scale of uncharted.

I can't think of a singe company that has been completley consistent in every console generation they've been involved in. Even Rockstar started out with some mediocre games (GTA1/2).

It's true though Ben, you've really gotta let it go. You remind me of england (football ~ soccer) fans, they stick by their team even though its compiled of over-paid morons. Albeit, I'm one of them, but that's only because I love football - not out of nationalism. I've still no idea why you loved the FF series in the first place though to be honest, I really don't. That's for another day though :P

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Riku994
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 5:47:32 PM

Ben likes RPGs, SquareSoft was the king of RPG's... nuff said :P

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 @ 8:23:08 PM

I'll repeat it again: I very rarely do any editorial involving Square Enix; I stay away from them most times. Read the comment above about the stats.

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Beamboom
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 2:19:35 AM

They don't differentiate between editorials and newsstories like you do, Ben. That's the difference here. And the way you write the news articles, with your personal comments inserted in them I'm not so sure if you should either.
Plus, you should include some of the " Ben's week in review" in your counts too, I think.

But instead of being so busy with proving your readers wrong and accusing them of being unable to count, maybe you should ask yourself if there maybe is a reason why they are of the impression they are, rightfully or not. Maybe, just maybe they've had enough rants about square now, regardless of their ability to count.
Take it for what it is: reader feedbacks.

Last edited by Beamboom on 11/30/2011 2:22:57 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 11:02:10 AM

No. Because I could do one article per year about it, and the reaction would still be the same.

I'm sorry, we always listen to readers (anything we've done to the site in the past four years has been based on fan wishlists), but this is just a knee-jerk reaction to anything Square Enix. It sticks in their heads and they just think they see articles all the time when in fact, they don't at all.

So no, I'm not going to take it as feedback if it's just wrong.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 12:57:22 PM

Here's some reader feedback...

If PSXE stops reporting what guys like Kitase, Nomura, Kojima, Cage, Jaffe, etc. etc. say about big name franchises, I will stop coming here. And if editorials stop focusing on the recent news articles published, I will also consider leaving.


Since that's not what PSXE does, I guess I'll continue to come here and be apart of the community.

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Beamboom
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 @ 3:19:49 PM

... Yes indeed, that is reader feedback too, Underdog.
We essentially talk about opinions here. Some think it has become too much about SE and then that is how it is - for them. Others welcome it.
And there could even be those who would not mind if psxe *only* wrote about Japanese developers - all of them.
Readers hardly ever all agree on something, and there are many reasons why a publication should *not* try to please them all. But these are all legitimate opinions/preferences. That's my point here.


Last edited by Beamboom on 11/30/2011 3:38:47 PM

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