Volition Designer: Used Games Market Needs To Be Fixed
See Full ImageVolition game designer Jameson Durall is working on a "secret project." But that project didn't get him in the news.
No, he sounded off on the controversial used video game market at the AltDevBlog in a post entitled, "I Feel Used." As most know, while GameStop makes millions off the sale and resale of games, game studios don't see a penny of used transactions. And Durall says if something doesn't change soon, the whole system could crumble.
"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart. People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game and how pirating a copy is just plain stealing."
Durrall suggested that downloadable content could help combat the problem, as timely and valuable DLC would cause gamers to hold on to their copies longer. But he adds that such content has to be "compelling and a good enough value." He also supports the online pass program manufacturers like EA, THQ, and Sony utilize; the programs began in at attempt to get consumers to buy new copies. Said Durrall:
"Some consumers complain about this method because the precedent has always been that it's included in the price and should come with it. It did for the person who actually bought it first…so was saving that $5 at GameStop worth it for you?"
We've often said that gamers tend to be awfully dismissive of the amount of money required to produce certain titles these days. The idea that all developers are sitting in mansions sipping champagne is sadly false; the terrible truth of the matter is that it's a forbidding environment, and non-million sellers often barely make enough for the creators to break even. Used games aren't really helping, although we don't propose a solution.
Tags: used games, preowned games, volition, used video games
2/6/2012 8:40:27 PM John Shepard
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Comments (58 posts)
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 11:03:30 PM
15 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 12:04:33 AM
...I could hazard a guess as to where this borderline communistic viewpoint comes from, but I won't.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 2/7/2012 12:05:31 AM
3 up, 7 down
___________
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:21:34 AM
your can go down to the rental store and play twisted metal every time you want to play it can you?
the library does not hurt writers because there not loosing any money from them.
such a small percentage of people who read their books do it from a library.
games though its the opposite.
so many people who play games do so by pirating, or renting, or buying used, 3 instances, not 1, where the developer sees bubcus!
0 up, 5 down
JohnnyGold
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 6:00:10 AM
if you are proposing fixed prices for games that consumers must pay at all times, that would be closer to a government controlled market (i.e. communism) than nosmokingbandits complaint, which is calling for a free market economy, or "capitalism." the fixed-price point for luxury goods is also known as "corporate wellfare."
the reason for that, and the economic collapse itself, was eloquently brought up by you in the article itself:
"The idea that all developers are sitting in mansions sipping champagne is sadly false."
how large is a staff that works on a game? and they should all make profits of millions of dollars for their efforts? and this is every studio?
no no, my friend. forget gamestop - go into one of your local record stores to truly gauge the worth of a game. red dead redemption still resells for 40. final fantasy 13 was 20$ about a month after it came out. if final fantasy released for 20$, how many more sales would they have had? hmmmmmmm. what if they released digitally for 20, and brick and mortar for 50$. i bet they would have turned a higher profit in either scenario.
10 up, 1 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 10:59:58 AM
2 up, 4 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:25:39 AM
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?!?!?!
3 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:55:23 PM
Coming from a family of entrepreneurs, I can tell you from long experience that the current trend in this country is that of all businesses being bad and all customers - i.e., "the people" - are being persecuted by anybody in business.
It's retarded but it's part of the entitlement generation.
4 up, 2 down
sha4dowknight05
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 4:35:36 PM
2 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 6:54:28 PM
0 up, 1 down
BikerSaint
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 10:52:39 PM
Reply
During all the days of the......
Tandy,
Commodore,
Telestar Alpha
Intellivision,
Colecovision,
Atari 2600/5200/7200,
NES,
SNES,
Jaguar,
3DO,
VirtualBoy,
Turbo Grafix,
Atari Lynx,
Sega MasterDrive,
Genesis,
Sega,
GameGear,
NeoGeo,
N64,
Sega Nomad,
Saturn,
Dreamcast,
GameBoy/GBAdvance/GBSP/GBMicro,
GameCube,
DS
PS2,
or original Xbox.......
..........NOT ONCE did I ever heard any developer and/or publisher what-so-ever complain even once about either used games sales or cry about lending your copy to another....until this gen.
Maybe part of the problem is there's too many games out around the same time this gen(at least on the PS3)& since the economy's really sucked for a while now, whether we like it or not, we are now having to pick & choose our games carefully, where we didn't have to in the past.
Another problem I see is that some developers need to hone their craft better if they really want to pick up better sales. I mean maybe those same developers need to drop their prices quickly to better reflect their lackluster games.
Otherwise(and as an out-of-work collector) I won't be able to buy that many D1P's, and I'll have to keep on either waiting for huge price drops during any Buy 2-get 1 Free deals, or buying some of my games used.
Last edited by BikerSaint on 2/6/2012 10:56:28 PM
14 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 11:04:54 PM
I think the difference is that in the old days there were a lot fewer GOOD games. But it's like, hey it isn't my fault I can't buy them all brand spanking new.
6 up, 0 down
Beamboom
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 7:11:05 AM
Could there be that there simply is... *ghasp*... Too many top quality productions these days?
Wow... We are lucky. May it never end!
Last edited by Beamboom on 2/7/2012 7:11:31 AM
1 up, 1 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:01:29 AM
3 up, 4 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 11:00:44 PM
Reply
Also, I'm sorry but if your game is not up to snuff I am not paying full price. So if you want to kill the used game market then I'll just wait until your game drops way down in retail or not buy it at all.
When I buy a game used, at least there's a chance I'll buy your next game new if I like it. If I can't, then you might not get my business. Used game sales are not lost new game sales in the long run.
13 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:28:38 AM
And I still haven't bought anything used less than 5 years old this gen. So it's completely possible to do.
2 up, 0 down
Beamboom
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 7:06:59 AM
Last edited by Beamboom on 2/7/2012 7:08:32 AM
2 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:29:30 AM
4 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:57:14 PM
5 up, 0 down
Killa Tequilla
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 11:44:17 PM
Reply
If you go to google maps and search for the nearest gamestops around a 100 mile radius, I kid you not, you will see more gamestop stores than you see McDonalds. This my friends is pure, the pure-est proof there is that there is a lot of games that are selling used.
The devs are going to do something about it litle by little. Sony should open up a store, Sony'Stop, where you can buy all games new or used and the devs and publishers will get their cut for used game sales! Brilliant! But impossible? That my friends, is a question that remains a mistery.
2 up, 3 down
Gabriel013
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 1:00:31 AM
1 up, 0 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:03:32 AM
1 up, 0 down
bigrailer19
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 11:48:13 PM
Reply
The unfortunate thing is game making will continue to increase in cost, and if the price of games goes up so will used game buying. It could unfortunately be a doom and gloom situation. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. So carry on.
4 up, 0 down
___________
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:25:35 AM
Reply
that way developers are getting paid for there work, and retailers are not being so greedy.
only reason i dont buy or trade games is because you get seriously ripped off!
i traded batman arkham city yesterday, a 2 month old game and i got 30 bucks for it!
THIRTY!
saw it in the store today, same store and they had 0 preowned copies when i traded it, for 80!
so there making a 50 dollar profit on it, now thats just BS!
10 bucks more then a brand new copy?
really?
why the ^%$# do people buy this shit, especially if its only 10 less?
retailers need to stop being so greedy, and give the developers a small percentage of what there making on preorders and rentals.
then theres rental services like gamefly, there free arent they?
so you get to play the game for what, a week?
for free?
thats piracy!
i can see why developers are so pissed about used games and rentals, its just not fair there not getting anything for there hard work, and those who sit behind a desk doing nothing get 50 bucks profit!
and thats on 1 transaction, what if another guy trades that game in and someone else buys it?
buy and sell the same game 20 times, the trade in and purchase price will stay the same.
my god these people are making a fortune for doing pluck all!
so, as he said.
was that 5 bucks you saved buying used really worth it?
tis why i cant understand buying games used.
you get a used game, which in all my cases has been so badly damaged they wont read.
then you take them back for another copy and they refuse saying oh how do we know you did not do that.
yea i deliberately scratched the disk so i can get another one.
sigh.
id far rather spend the extra 5 bucks and save the headache!
not to mention online passes, DLC, and preorder bonuses your missing out on.
point being buying used normally gets you 30+ bucks of content you would not get used!
and used is 10 bucks cheaper, 20 max ive ever seen.
so if anything your loosing money buying used, not saving it!
1 up, 5 down
shadowscorpio
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:56:10 AM
Reply
It wasn't until devs started paying attention to how much money the used game industry was reeling in. Maybe its simply because of the fact that game s this gen are so expensive to make?
I sincerely think that this gaming gen cannot be compared to previous gens. Too many different elements. I feel when moving forward, things have to be approached diffently. Conducting a full out attack on the UGI (used game industry)is goning to affect a certain level of consumers.
1 up, 0 down
Godslim
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 4:08:00 AM
Reply
4 up, 3 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:30:18 AM
It isn't much.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 2/7/2012 11:31:10 AM
0 up, 1 down
dmiitrie
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:17:16 PM
1 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:50:26 PM
But now that I say that, I feel like I'm starting to not remember things right...
Anyone know if I'm right or wrong there?
0 up, 0 down
Godslim
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:57:00 PM
1 up, 2 down
Geobaldi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 3:20:34 PM
0 up, 0 down
gumbi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 4:53:06 PM
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 7:01:28 PM
Yeah, That was a time when I would have tried to get my parents to help me out with buying games too. Most of what I got, I got with money for extra jobs around the house aside from chores. lol... most of my motivation as a kid/teenager was to buy the next game I wanted. lol
Man I wish all the money I made was still 100% disposable! lol
@godslim
I can understand for folks that have little money to spare, but I've always been of the thought that hobbies and entertainment are something extra... like, not necessities. When I didn't make any or little money, I rarely bought games and still played games a TON.
And compared to the other things I like to do, Video Games are pretty much the cheapest option out there when you break it down to a dollars-per-hour equation.
I'm with you in that I would never buy a game shorter than 10 hours for $60. I wait until it's on the cheap. But even a 10 hour game brand new works out to $6 an hour. And that's pretty much at a games most expensive point. In hindsight, that's pretty cheap if you compare to other hobbies like sports (registration costs and equipment) or golf or even movies. Buy a movie for $20, and it's like a $10 per hour investment! Brand new movies can be as much as $40 ($20 per hour). Compare that to a new game at $60, and I just have a hard time agreeing with you when comparing new to new.
But we're both approaching it from different angles, too. But my explanation is at least where I'm coming from.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 2/7/2012 7:03:55 PM
0 up, 0 down
Fane1024
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 4:19:59 AM
It's directly related to the exchange rate, which (as I'm sure you know) until very recently was nowhere near even as it has been for the last three or so years.
I remember $50 games being $70 CDN when the exchange rate was 1.40.
0 up, 0 down
Looking Glass
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 6:50:46 AM
Reply
I think he's mainly referring to bigger budget titles which admittedly there seem to be quite a few of.
0 up, 0 down
jaybiv
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 8:03:14 AM
Reply
4 up, 5 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:08:02 AM
1 up, 1 down
Beamboom
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:03:43 PM
0 up, 0 down
Geobaldi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 3:23:24 PM
Yes, the PS3 has been hacked a few times already, and I have seen pirated PS3 games for sale.
0 up, 0 down
pillz81
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 4:28:58 PM
0 up, 0 down
gumbi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 10:00:37 AM
Reply
So, say the new $60 game comes with a license to activate your software. If you acquired the game disc through any other means you have to purchase a $5, $10, or $15 license from the publisher to activate it.
This wouldn't kill the used game market, but it would force it to change, to be fair. Instead of Gamestop selling you a used game for $50 and making a huge profit, they'd have to sell it to you for $35-$40. Then you buy a license from the publisher. It still costs you $50, you still save $10, and Gamestop only makes a $10 or $15 profit on the sale (about the same as the publisher). Or maybe the publishers could sell bulk licenses to Gamestop to be packaged and sold with used games. Either way, They both still make money.
Granted, this model is not without it's flaws. It could throw a bone in the game rental industry. They'd need some system of rental licenses that are only good for 5-7 days after activation. And trading games with friends wouldn't be free anymore.
I have to say though, I'm really getting sick of hearing the complaining on both sides of this argument.
Publishers/Developers: You can't keep doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results. So either change the way you do business, or quit whining.
Gamestop: You didn't really expect this free ride to last forever did you?
2 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 11:34:18 AM
People should have the option to buy used. But it shouldn't hurt the developers, and I think places like Gamestop inflate the value of a used title FAR too much.
Incorporating activation fees would mean gamestop would have to sell for less (or include it, thus them paying the devs) and the final cost to consumers would be EXACTLY THE SAME.
People here like to act like you either have used game sales or NO used sales, and they fight for one side or the other. People forget there are always grey areas in reality.
Sure, we should keep used game sales as a viable option for people who can't afford it, but there can be no argument that the current used game sales model needs a face-lift.
2 up, 0 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 12:42:02 PM
2 up, 0 down
gumbi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 2:48:28 PM
The only way publishers are going to get a piece of the used game pie is to take matters into their own hands. They need a system of controlling who can, and can't, use their software. Nobody is going to pay $50 for a used game if it'll cost them another $10-$15 for a license to play it. This would force Gamestop to lower their prices on used games. Yes, that means their trade in values will be lower too, but they'll still have to cut their profit margins. It would be more like it used to be.
The thing is, a change like this would make very little difference to the consumer's bottom line. You'll still be able to buy used games, and it'll still cost you about the same when all's said and done. The only difference is that you'll be supporting both the retailer AND the game developers.
Instead of trying to work out deals with Gamestop, which will just never happen. Pubs and Devs need to appeal to the major console makers and work on getting firmware updates that support software licensing. Take the uncooperative Gamestops right out of the equation by forcing the market change upon them.
I understand that, technically, this would be difficult to implement. But if they're not willing to take such measures then nothing is going to change. Used game retailers are simply not going to play this game unless they are forced to. So force them.
2 up, 0 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 3:36:28 PM
1 up, 0 down
gumbi
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 4:12:03 PM
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Tuesday, February 07, 2012 @ 9:00:43 PM
0 up, 0 down
Darwin1967
Wednesday, February 08, 2012 @ 2:23:40 PM
Reply
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Wednesday, February 08, 2012 @ 7:33:28 PM
But that's not the real issue at hand here.
The point isn't that used sales are bad. It's that the used market needs to be fixed. Used game companies like Gamestop make all the money. Both gamers and developers could be better off with a reform of best practices.
That's more the point: The used game market shouldn't die. It just needs to be fixed. (And I personally believe gamers would continue to, at the end of the day, pay the same amount they pay now.
1 up, 0 down
RobN
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 11:26:43 AM
Reply
I get the bonus content for preorders. I get the online pass. I get all that. But I simply can't afford to buy all the games I'd like to buy. I won't stoop to piracy -- the debate over that is different than the used market, and I support any effort to stamp it out -- but when I can't afford the games I want when they're discounted to $30, I sure can't justify spending $60 for a single game.
If I buy a Blu-Ray movie, I might pay $25 for a new release -- wait six months, and it will probably be $15 or less. They put a ton of resources and millions of dollars into their product as well (though to be fair, they make money off more than retail sales).
So I wait until you come out with a discounted GotY edition, with a bunch of premium content thrown in and the whole thing sold for $20-30. If you're not going to do that in 6-12 months after release, then I'm going to go buy it used for $20. If you don't like it, then you must not want my money -- at least not at that price.
Don't complain about the demand curve -- it's not going away. Adapt to it or watch your sales go to those who will.
1 up, 0 down
patv3dgamer
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 12:24:21 PM
Reply
2 up, 0 down
Ather
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 2:35:44 PM
Reply
1 up, 1 down
Supagudg
Thursday, February 09, 2012 @ 3:16:25 PM
Reply
The unfortunate problem is that the games are "too good" and come out too often. This is NOT a complaint, but an observation of the nature of this--and many--art forms. When developers, of their own volition, pump millions of dollars into the realization of their own aesthetic, they are doing something which fundamentally defies "business sense." This is both beautiful and inefficient.
The rules of supply and demand always apply, art or not. No matter how many awesome games a developer releases, they will get less from it if consumers have to pick and choose too much, based on affordability. Either the production cost, the price, or the availability of these products have to change.
After all, it is not the consumer's job to make sure the developer makes a profit; it is the developer's job to convince the consumer to buy new.
2 up, 0 down
NoSmokingBandit
Reply
Monday, February 06, 2012 @ 10:03:06 PM
Oh wait, thats not at all what happened.
Rather than blame the customer for everything, as is the modern trend for just about every media company, why not do your job better? Well, that would require more work and its easier to simply demonize everyone who bought a used copy of anything.
And people need to stop this BS thing about used games being $5 less than their new counterparts. All of the used games i've bought have been at least $15 less than new, usually more. People suck at shopping if they can only find used copies $5 less. But lets not be logical in our assertions, just throw out numbers that make your point sound better.
The reason some studios are hemorrhaging cash is the same reason every other company in the world is: The economy is still in the crapper. So rather than tough it out and do you job so well that people will be thrilled to buy your product, lets just blame the consumers.
Damn you poor college kids for paying $45 for a used copy of a $60 game! Damn you all! Its all your fault!!!! And dont get me started on parents working 2 jobs just to get their kid used copy of game for their birthday/christmas. They are the worst offenders. How dare they save money for their child when there are giant corporations who deserve their money more?
Am I doing it right?
This industry is disgusting. This is not the gaming i grew up with and its not the gaming i'll continue to enjoy. Musicians and film studios have been dealing with this "problem" at least twice as long as game publishers, and they seem to be doing alright. But thats different for whatever reason makes people feel better.
If you'll excuse me i'm going to go put a down payment on a brand new house because contractors are going out of business left and right and its my personal responsibility to take care of them. Apparently.
Last edited by NoSmokingBandit on 2/6/2012 10:04:07 PM