Is Nostalgia The Only Reason We Want Our Old JRPGs Back?
See Full ImageI'm currently playing Tales of Graces f and while playing, something struck me-
Fans of old-school Japanese role-playing games will often bemoan the loss of tried-and-true turn-based mechanics and in fact, the overall decline of quality in their favorite sub-genre. I'm one of them, as I have always believed turn-based could've remained (and evolved); the fans never wanted it to die, the designers opted to kill it off without our feedback.
But we've addressed that before. There's something else, something surprisingly obvious, that we don't usually acknowledge: Back when we all loved JRPGs during the SNES, PS1 and for the most part, PS2 generations, that's pretty much all we had. On consoles, if it was an RPG, it was made by a Japanese developer. So they all had that distinct Japanese flair; most were obviously inspired by anime, and every last one adopted one or many traits and elements of the Japanese culture. The bottom line is that we really had no choice; we were all indoctrinated, so-to-speak.
And of course, there's nothing wrong with appreciating other cultures. But the point I'm trying to make should be obvious. Now that Western developers have caught up (and in many ways, surpassed) Japanese designers, we don't have to adopt traits that are unfamiliar to us; we don't have to try and enjoy something that is quite clearly the product of a different culture. And while it's true that a lack of quality is a big reason JRPGs don't fare so well today, I firmly believe that quite simply, we have more options that hit closer to home.
I'm the perfect example. I never liked anime. I never understood it and I still don't. I'm also not a big fan of Japanese culture and style in general (no offense to any Japanese out there), although I definitely want to visit Tokyo one day. Therefore, it makes zero sense for me to have such an affinity for games that are dripping with Japanese flair. Many have expressed surprise at my love of old-school JRPGs and my complete dislike of anime. And I never really examined that but the reason is clear- I loved the gameplay in those games, I loved just about everything about them. So in truth, I would've played them had their roots been in Russia, India, South America, Africa, any European country, wherever.
I remain firm in my belief that turn-based mechanics and world maps didn't need to disappear, despite our advances in technology. But besides our love of those gameplay elements, what are we really clinging to besides nostalgia...? I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who really like the Japanese culture, but now that they have a choice, there's no real reason to bridge that culture gap anymore.
Tags: japanese rpg, jrpg, role-playing games, japanese games, gaming culture
3/18/2012 9:26:55 PM Ben Dutka
Put this on your webpage or blog:
Email this to a friend
Follow PSX Extreme on Twitter
Comments (52 posts)
maxpontiac
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 12:56:48 AM
Uncharted 2 at the end had a touching moment with Drake and Elena that pulled an emotional string on my heart. I actually felt Drake caring. In fact, I actually care about the friendships between Drake, Sully an Elena.
I only use this example because Uncharted is an adrenalin junkies dream with some of the best action sequences out there.
1 up, 2 down
Beamboom
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:50:24 AM
That is *not* what they said. Read the full article again, or the (now rather long) thread at the PSXE forums.
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:45:01 PM
Even if that idea that cut scenes have to go was taken out of context, all you have to do is look around to know it's true. Young gamers won't buy a game they think is too much like a movie, that hurts us.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/19/2012 2:46:24 PM
1 up, 0 down
Beamboom
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 3:32:19 PM
Your opinions on the PSXforums must be based on experience from before I joined the forum, cause it's really not bad at all there now. We've had several discussions that's gone pretty deep into the topic, with room for all views and opinions. Do we end up agreeing? No, hardly ever, but there's quite some interesting moments to be had either way.
I can only speak of from when I joined the forums, but it really is not that bad (anymore?).
Last edited by Beamboom on 3/19/2012 3:34:35 PM
0 up, 0 down
maxpontiac
Sunday, March 18, 2012 @ 10:49:18 PM
Reply
Take White Knight Chronicle's for example, my teenage sons lost complete interest when they saw it was turn based.
Most young adults want action and that is a fact. Unfortunately a genre such as the JRPG is looking to become a dinosaur due to how it has not evolved.
Skyrim style RPG's are the ONLY way to go.
3 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Sunday, March 18, 2012 @ 11:19:17 PM
4 up, 1 down
maxpontiac
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 12:46:03 AM
0 up, 0 down
maxpontiac
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 12:58:31 AM
0 up, 0 down
Beamboom
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:58:45 AM
I ask cause I hear that claim quite often, but of the few jrpgs I've played so far on the ps3 and the psp, none of them stand out as particularly interesting, story wise.
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:20:44 AM
There is definitely another issue of jRPG's not meeting even their own standards, let alone the standards of newer western games.
I haven't yet played a single PS3 game, in any genre, actually, that matches some of the stories found easily in the PS1 era, or even many games in PS2 era. But I think that's also because there was a need to compensate for the lack of technology as well.
There's a lot of issues to consider on this topic, and they all contribute to why jRPG's aren't made well anymore as a whole. But most of them are true at least to a certain degree.
0 up, 0 down
daus26
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:37:19 AM
Are you guys referring JRPGs to a certain style of gameplay? Or are we comparing turn-based vs. action here? Deep story and emotional attachment (imo) should be irrelevant in terms of potential when we're comparing Western vs. Japanese, or even gameplay (action vs. turn-based). JRPGs back in the day had great stories because of the writers, not so much cause of the gameplay, or the fact that it was Japanese, right? Or am I wrong?
Last edited by daus26 on 3/19/2012 9:39:24 AM
0 up, 1 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:06:30 AM
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:47:34 PM
The way western RPGs are structured (a lot of the time but not always) is open-ended and based on choice. In doing so, the structure of the story breaks down. In JRPGs there is one story that you play through and in the past it has often been a very moving experience because the story is strong and the characters are who they are. In WRPGs, everything is flexible. You just can't have a strong story and a ton of freedom, at least not yet.
As far as the gameplay goes, JRPGs used to be about strategy and commands, where an intelligent person could overcome a much stronger enemy using their mind. WRPGs and lately some JRPGs are all about hacking and slashing instant gratification where you can spam a few buttons and win.
@Beam
That's the issue, the JRPGs this generation just decided to drop the sweeping epic stories of the past to cater to people who don't like JRPGs anyway. You have to look to the past for greatness, which is sad.
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/19/2012 2:54:03 PM
0 up, 0 down
The X Factor 9
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:25:11 AM
Reply
That said, it's been a long time since I played a JRPG that truly captured my imagination and made me care. Final Fantasy VII was the last one. Maybe you're onto something Ben.
I go back and replay the game every couple of years and it never gets old. It is just so utterly brilliant in its story telling and setting. It makes me so sad that there hasn't been a Final Fantasy game since (Ok, maybe 10) that gave me that same magical feeling.
0 up, 0 down
dembiscuits
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:52:50 AM
Reply
2 up, 1 down
Russell Burrows
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 4:19:39 AM
Reply
What about movies like Apple Seed, Vexille and Neo Tokyo??
0 up, 1 down
mehrab2603
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 5:11:51 AM
Reply
4 up, 1 down
Looking Glass
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 7:25:52 AM
Or to put it a different way in the west animation is primarily used for either children's content or adult comedy. But in Japan it's used for pretty much everything. Although some genres may be more popular than others (like shounen for example).
3 up, 0 down
Lotusflow3r
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 7:26:42 AM
The most global anime being Ghibli films. They are without question, some of the greatest films ever made and put the entire modern Disney (and often old) to shame. Furthermore, limiting it to the asian equivalent of Disney is also a huge, huge disservice. They're overall, a film studio that delivers timeless pieces. Proving this would be Grave Of The Fireflies - commonly described as the greatest war movie ever made.
Then you have other anime films that are just outrageously genius.
A common misconception about anime is that it's all about sword wielding, OTT spell casting, cheesy dialogue having, geek-fests.
But obviously, that's light years from the truth.
Anime is a film STYLE. Like Noir, Avant Garde, Arthouse, animation, Hollywood etc, etc.
Not liking that style is obviously fine, but with all being said, you'd be hugely limiting yourself.
Most Jrpgs were styles of anime.
2 up, 0 down
ZenChichiri
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 8:12:34 AM
@Ben: Especially if you're fond of the political nature of FF Tactics, I believe Code Geass would be an anime you would enjoy, if you ever wanted to dip your toes in a bit.
Last edited by ZenChichiri on 3/19/2012 8:16:26 AM
1 up, 1 down
Nas Is Like
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:16:54 AM
0 up, 0 down
mehrab2603
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 11:46:32 AM
Many people have a wrong idea of anime and shows like DBZ that made anime popular in the west (along with mostly shounen being telecast) play a role in that. Anime is as diverse as any other media so it's hard not to find something you will like.
0 up, 0 down
SnipeySnake
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:25:01 PM
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:55:40 PM
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 3:17:00 PM
1 up, 0 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 4:11:07 PM
Chobbits
Please Teacher (also known as Onegai Teacher)
Hand Maid May
Hayate no gotoku
Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu
Lucky Star
Asobi ni iku yo!
There are others, but this should keep you busy. For Xenosaga fans, try Hand Maid May the two main VAs from Episode 1 and 3 voice the English dub and do a great job. The VA tha plays Shion has the title role, and the VA that played KOSMOS plays a significant part as well.
0 up, 0 down
goldentinny
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:33:05 PM
That said, like Ben I do love JRPGs. There is a difference though. Almost all JPRGs were made with an eye toward a broader audience, while anime is not really. So while with JRPGs I suspose you do get some Japanese flair, it's not like you have to be invested in the culture to "get it." One of my favorite RPGs is Lunar, which was a hilarious game because Working Designs actually realized hey, some of these jokes don't translate, so they introduced jokes relevant to Western audiences.
There have been some JRPGs that have been too anime-y though and I haven't liked them for that reason, like the Growlanser series, Odin Sphere, some of the Tales, and the cringe-worthy anime dialogue of FFX (though I loved the gameplay).
0 up, 0 down
Looking Glass
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 @ 1:35:42 AM
Well it does stand to reason that some people simply wouldn't care for the medium of animation in general.
But this assertion that anime is not made with an eye toward a broader audience is a very bold claim and not a very plausible one to put it lightly. This is partially because of the great diversity of the medium and partially because you seem to be basing this claim on the fact that you personally have not encountered an anime title that you have liked. Just because you and others may not be part of the broader audience doesn't mean that anime doesn't have an eye toward a broader audience.
The fact that you're making such a claim leads me to believe that the "tons" of anime that you've watched actually haven't really had all that much diversity and variety to them. Another thing that leads me to believe this is your use of terms like "anime dialogue" and "anime-y". The implication of such terms is that the dialogue and stuff you encountered is typical of all anime. But I firmly believe that it's safe to say that there is nothing that is typical of all anime (perhaps aside from stuff like it all being animated and the like and that kind of thing).
Last edited by Looking Glass on 3/20/2012 1:41:04 AM
0 up, 0 down
Lotusflow3r
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 7:31:48 AM
Reply
There's so much lacking in modern Wrpgs and many modern Jrpgs. It's only recently being realised and slightly brought back (The Last Story, Xenoblade, Ni No Kuni, Rainbow Moon, Tales Of Xillia).
3 up, 0 down
Looking Glass
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 7:50:30 AM
Reply
Nostalgia isn't really an issue for me.
First of all unlike Ben I like anime and Japanese culture. That's one reason I support JRPGs.
Another reason is that I don't really care all that much for instant gratification, or "twitch", gaming. I like slower and more meticulous gameplay better.
And another reason is as follows. I can understand the appeal of the more "open ended" narrative approach featured in games from Bioware (the ME3 backlash aside), Bethesda, and CD Projekt RED. But even so I prefer the more focused storytelling found in many JRPGs.
1 up, 0 down
daus26
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:23:51 AM
Reply
I think one of the reasons why is because of the fact that it's an untouched formula of similar scenarios... or perhaps we're not hack n slashing with weapons?? Other JRPGs with turn based gameplay back in the day, especially FF, are able to and have continued to evolve. Unless the gameplay and story have become a true staple, like how racing games are always "racing" it's only natural that it'll change over time.
Well, whatever it is, I think it's pretty clear now that the generation now prefers a more live action sequence scene. A turn-based RPG will just seem like "chess" to them. Just imagine if there were as much as "action" JRPG as "turn-based" JRPG back in the day. Would turn-based rpg games fare as well as it did?
0 up, 0 down
Looking Glass
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:31:16 AM
What are you talking about? Don't you know about Atelier Rorona and Atelier Totori for example?
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 9:36:20 AM
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:10:11 AM
What they said.
WKC2 is turn based with a bit of an active time based hybrid kind of system and fully realized 3rd person view.
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:15:02 AM
Reply
That sounds awfully parochial. It really feeds back into what I and others have been saying about the way that JRPGs are treated in reviews and how the Japanese gaming industry is perceived. All along with this insane point of view that says that Japanese devs must westernize. Parochialism bordering on cultural imperialism. I have other words to describe the point of view that says people played JRPGs because they had no other choice and now are choosing non-japanese games because they are more familiar, but people would not like me to use them.
Last edited by Highlander on 3/19/2012 10:15:18 AM
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:23:57 AM
I'm just talking specifically about old-school RPG fans. Logically speaking, those in the West won't automatically or easily take to a fantasy world with a style and presentation they don't relate to. But as it was really the only option and they wanted the unique gameplay...
The point is this- if all those turn-based traditional RPGs we loved had come from Western AND Japanese developers, and they were about even in quality and frequency of releases, do you really think Americans would've bought the Japanese over the Western efforts? What would compel them to do so? Like I said, some just really liked the Japanese culture (like you), but you can't tell me that everyone, given the option, would always take the Japanese theme over a more familiar theme, IF they had had the choice.
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:33:25 AM
I don't know what to tell you Ben, this generation I have come to really dislike the direction that the western gaming industry has taken. Games made in the west no longer seem to be about play. They seem to me to be about the interactive experience, realism, grittiness, lots of brown, green, grey and blood red. They seem less about fun and more about ever more real depictions of violence. What the hell ever happened to people playing games for the fun of play?
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:45:23 AM
What I mean is- revisit 1996. Take a game like Suikoden. Now make the EXACT same game; just give it a different theme. Any theme that isn't distinctly Japanese; just some fantastical universal thing. Not sci-fi, just fantasy. Same game, same story, same quality.
Do that with all the great JRPGs and put the two versions side by side. ...I really don't think we would've all been buying the Japanese versions and hence, today, I don't think we'd be pining over the loss of the JRPG anywhere near as much.
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 12:04:57 PM
I think that the reason that the JRPGs sold well was they they were different. I don't agree that the same game system with a typically western style and artistry would have sold as well. I guess we will never know though. I do though remember that there were RPGs on PC from western developers at the time that did quite well. So it wasn't exactly as if there was no competition for JRPGs then.
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 12:14:45 PM
1 up, 0 down
Arvis
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:44:26 AM
Reply
Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo
They took Dumas' classic novel and made a 26 episode anime out of it, told from the point of view of Albert de Morcerf. I'd be interested to see what you think of anime based on classic literature.
-Arvis
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 10:46:52 AM
There's simply too much between the lines that can't be conveyed properly on a screen. It has to happen in our minds.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 3/19/2012 10:47:27 AM
1 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:48:30 PM
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 3:14:57 PM
0 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 3:20:16 PM
Of course, I've also been more attracted to good characters that relate well to the human condition moreso than an overall narrative. Admittedly, Tolkein had a slow narrative, however, he did well at creating characters that equate to human conditions. In that sense, his characters were always interested and always reflected, at least partially, onto something that is within myself or at least someone I know.
Of course, that was his intention at the onset which isn't entirely a traditional approach to character development. But it worked, none-the-less.
Last edited by Underdog15 on 3/19/2012 3:21:44 PM
0 up, 0 down
Arvis
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 @ 10:58:46 AM
Of course, with Albert being the "main character" it's not going to have ALL of the many storylines of the novel, but so far it seems like they have gone in for representing the "de Morcerf" slice of the novel.
I really do think you would enjoy it.
-Arvis
0 up, 0 down
SuMtOnE
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 1:59:23 PM
Reply
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 2:56:17 PM
1 up, 0 down
Alaric
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 4:42:24 PM
Reply
0 up, 0 down
BigBoss4ever
Monday, March 19, 2012 @ 11:00:57 PM
Reply
Last edited by BigBoss4ever on 3/19/2012 11:05:35 PM
0 up, 1 down
___________
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 @ 4:44:59 AM
Reply
fans want them back simply because they crave something different.
in the world drowning with shoot this and shoot that, people are looking to the polar opposite genre away from that.
and that is?
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Reply
Sunday, March 18, 2012 @ 10:21:26 PM
Now, as far as the nostalgia thing goes I consider that every time I pick up a this-gen JRPG and have finally come to the conclusion that while that is a selling point we can't attach to many games anymore, it isn't the major reason.
The major reason we want our old style JRPGs back is because a classic form of gameplay, and I mean "Classic" in the sense that it's as tried and true and enjoyable as any timeless Mario mechanic is considered by the elite to be "outdated". And thus it is impugned and infringed upon by twitchy tweakers and their thrill-a-second action fetishes.
Another more minor reason is that with all the flash these days (and it infecting our JRPGs) there is no more room for touching moments like Squall and Rinoa's dance, there are no scope-broadening struggles that make us hate Sephiroth even more with every passing hour. There are no personal stories of identity crisis or friendship. Now we get a few characters there is no reason to care about and a story that would be laughed off by the writers at the SyFy channel (and they make some bad movies).
I mean really, people are saying that cut scenes have to go because there isn't enough action... what the hell man?
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/18/2012 10:21:50 PM