ME3 Fans, Fair Warning: Don't Complain About The Extended Cut
Mass Effect 3So you got BioWare to do something about the endings. And yet, as I and others in the industry said (Bioshock creator Ken Levine included), this isn't going to solve the problem.
You can't please everyone. It's just the way of the world. And even though the developer has promised a Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut for the summer - which is free and entirely unplanned; a direct response to the outcry for a better climax - not all fans are happy. And nobody is surprised.
As reported by ABC News 10, there are already examples of more complaining on the part of ME3 fans. Here's what a student at the University of South Carolina Lancaster had to say:
"We do not want an extended cut, we want an ending that fits Mass Effect 3, not some ending clearly ripped from the bad endings of several movies that completely destroys the purpose of playing the game."
Others have spoken out saying they don't think BioWare should change the story at all, and we particularly like Facebook user Eileen Presser's comment on the subject, which sums up what a great many journalists have been saying concerning this topic:
"How infantile is that? "If that is the order of the day & how they live their life because they think endings that don't please them should be changed, they are in for some very tough sleeding in life."
A little while ago, I did a piece that tried to explain, in the most civil way possible, that the Mass Effect 3 fans had every right to complain, and every right to stand up and be counted. But at the same time, the brazen, childish attitude with which those complaints were initially expressed reflected badly on the gaming community. And all I've got to add is this-
I would strongly suggest you all just thank BioWare for bowing to your whims and move along your merry way. You've made your point. If you don't want to be seen as entitled, spoiled brats (which is the way some view you, unfortunately), you really can't complain about the Extended Cut, too. If you do, I'll lose the last scrap of respect I have for hardcore followers of that franchise.
Related Game(s): Mass Effect 3
Tags: me3, mass effect 3, mass effect 3 endings, bioware
4/9/2012 9:02:08 PM Ben Dutka
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Comments (95 posts)
TheIllusiveMan
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:25:53 AM
Don't avoid this game because if the ending controversy. If you want to play it, play it. And when you beat it, tell me what's so bad about the end. You'll see that outs not that bad. It's nothing spectacular, but it isn't some game ruining, life wasting, horrible ending it's made out to be.
3 up, 3 down
frylock25
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:52:25 PM
only reason i havent played it yet is because i have to many other games to play right now. one day i will
2 up, 0 down
firesoul453
Monday, April 09, 2012 @ 10:35:07 PM
Reply
I'm not saying the ending is great or anything but they shouldn't be forced to make up something just to make it different. I do hope it is good though and adds to the game overall
6 up, 1 down
FM23
Monday, April 09, 2012 @ 11:24:40 PM
Reply
Personally, I thought the ending was pretty satisfying. Yes if left questions, but if these sci-fi nerds paid attention to minor sequences in the game, its quite clear what happened in the end even though Bioware did little to explain it even though the end kind of secretly explains it too. Either way,ME3 was still a step above the rest and these ME3 fans are just being losers for the sake of being losers. ME3 isn't making me breakfast or paying my bills...but it did entertain me.
SPOILER: But if the indoctrination theory is false, then this endimg really doesn't make sense or follow ME3 at all. It seems as if Bioware was saying your choices don't matter when something higher dictates your existense. Kind of like Shepard and his/her crew
Last edited by FM23 on 4/9/2012 11:26:38 PM
SPOILER: But if the indoctrination theory is false, then this endimg really doesn't make sense or follow ME3 at all. It seems as if Bioware was saying your choices don't matter when something higher dictates your existense. Kind of like Shepard and his/her crew
Last edited by FM23 on 4/9/2012 11:26:38 PM
3 up, 0 down
oldmike
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 12:29:44 PM
so you like the IT idea then?
you like the idea the game shiped without a true ending?
that its full of plot holes and tech not in the ME world like "beam me up scotty"
never mind the fact they stole the ending from another game
you like the idea the game shiped without a true ending?
that its full of plot holes and tech not in the ME world like "beam me up scotty"
never mind the fact they stole the ending from another game
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, April 09, 2012 @ 11:54:45 PM
Reply
Wait, when did they fix the first ending?
2 up, 1 down
TheIllusiveMan
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:19:51 AM
Reply
I've been a huge Mass Effect fan since well before I ever played it. I have done everything start to finish, including all the DLC. What I don't get is what these people expected. This is an ending to Shepards story. To show anything beyond that is just dumb. They ended it in a way that is just what they wanted. Sure, all your choices didn't really have an effect on it, but honestly, this whole damn game was an ending. It wraps up nearly everything you've done, brings together everyone you've encountered, and ends the conflict you were set out to end.
The point is, they wanted people to speculate, and they wanted to have them ask questions, but the general crowd of gamers can't be satisfied with that anymore. This ending wasn't bad at all. So what if they didn't factor in the fact that you did or didn't help *insert person here* do *insert task here* into the very ending. What relevance did it have? What did people want, slides like on Fallout? This entire game was amazing in every way and such an amazing improvement over 2. The gameplay, the story, the things you get to do and see, all of it together just made this game a great experience.
The point is, they wanted people to speculate, and they wanted to have them ask questions, but the general crowd of gamers can't be satisfied with that anymore. This ending wasn't bad at all. So what if they didn't factor in the fact that you did or didn't help *insert person here* do *insert task here* into the very ending. What relevance did it have? What did people want, slides like on Fallout? This entire game was amazing in every way and such an amazing improvement over 2. The gameplay, the story, the things you get to do and see, all of it together just made this game a great experience.
6 up, 2 down
___________
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 5:24:45 AM
your TOTALLY missing the point of the series!
ME has NEVER been about sheppard, its always been about the galaxy.
about the greater good.
screw a race if it means helping 2.
so having a ending like what ME3 did is like ending LOTR where they enter the mountain.
well, you answered 1 question what about the other 72645676534?
not to mention another point of the series was choice, which is negligible!
tomato tamato same thing different spelling does that mean their different?
bioware promised massive variations in what happens at the end, would you call the variations massive?
yet again developers over promising and under delivering.
has anyone ever thought if bioware, and not only them developers are doing this all the time!
if they did not promise things they could not deliver on then this would of never happened?
they promised a Ferrari and delivered a Suzuki so of course people are going to complain!
im sorry but bioware and developers have NO ONE to blame but themselves!
maybe, just maybe, next time developers will think twice before they lie flat out in fans faces!
id at least like to believe.........
ME has NEVER been about sheppard, its always been about the galaxy.
about the greater good.
screw a race if it means helping 2.
so having a ending like what ME3 did is like ending LOTR where they enter the mountain.
well, you answered 1 question what about the other 72645676534?
not to mention another point of the series was choice, which is negligible!
tomato tamato same thing different spelling does that mean their different?
bioware promised massive variations in what happens at the end, would you call the variations massive?
yet again developers over promising and under delivering.
has anyone ever thought if bioware, and not only them developers are doing this all the time!
if they did not promise things they could not deliver on then this would of never happened?
they promised a Ferrari and delivered a Suzuki so of course people are going to complain!
im sorry but bioware and developers have NO ONE to blame but themselves!
maybe, just maybe, next time developers will think twice before they lie flat out in fans faces!
id at least like to believe.........
5 up, 8 down
telly
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:07:38 PM
Well said, Illusive Man. Just don't get the OUTRAGE over the ending at all, the SCREAMING over BioWare's "betrayal." Just... don't get it.
2 up, 2 down
oldmike
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 12:34:40 PM
How many of you pro ending played all 3 games?
how many even beat ME3?
kind of bugs me that the big GAMEING news is all pro enders
yet you have writers and Forbes and others trashing how flawed it is
how many even beat ME3?
kind of bugs me that the big GAMEING news is all pro enders
yet you have writers and Forbes and others trashing how flawed it is
0 up, 0 down
sunspider13
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:00:16 AM
Reply
I find it just funny that this situation happen in the first place. I haven't gotten my hands on the game yet but the whiners remind me of some of my friends that stopped watching shows because a favorite characters was killed off. Ok fine you're dissatisfied with what happened but come on it's only a tv show.
I can understand people being upset with the ending and they wanted to voice their displeasure about that fact, but if they weren't such self entitled gits about it I know this whole thing wouldn't have been such a news item.
The first ME was one of the few 360 titles that I finished while my brother still had his 360, and ME2 was a great experience from beginning to end and I look forward to playing ME3. So thanks BioWare, from this sci-fi fan, for a great epic.
I can understand people being upset with the ending and they wanted to voice their displeasure about that fact, but if they weren't such self entitled gits about it I know this whole thing wouldn't have been such a news item.
The first ME was one of the few 360 titles that I finished while my brother still had his 360, and ME2 was a great experience from beginning to end and I look forward to playing ME3. So thanks BioWare, from this sci-fi fan, for a great epic.
3 up, 1 down
oldmike
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 12:37:02 PM
ok this pisses me off you HAVE NOT PLAYED IT!!!
what right to you to say any thing about it?
what right to you to say any thing about it?
0 up, 0 down
Geobaldi
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:01:46 AM
Reply
Whether people complain or not about the new endings doesn't really matter as their reputation, and that of gamers in general, has already been affected negatively thanks to this whole experience. Whether it can be repaired is a whole other story, but I don't think it will be anytime soon.
4 up, 1 down
Gabriel013
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:13:42 AM
Reply
I'm nowhere near getting to an ending (RROD 10 hours in) but I was shocked to hear that there's no explanation as to what your surviving crew did, even in the few months after the final event. I'd be more than happy to see a text wall for each of the main characters to properly end their story as well as Shephards.
With regards to the 3 choice endings I've seen online I thought they were ok and don't need changing.
I do wonder if they left the rest of the ME universe unexplained because ME4 is intended to pick up not long after ME3 ends and thus the explanation will be in the gameplay itself. If that IS the case they should have come out and said it before the gamerrage took hold then maybe some of this anger from some gamers would have softened.
With regards to the 3 choice endings I've seen online I thought they were ok and don't need changing.
I do wonder if they left the rest of the ME universe unexplained because ME4 is intended to pick up not long after ME3 ends and thus the explanation will be in the gameplay itself. If that IS the case they should have come out and said it before the gamerrage took hold then maybe some of this anger from some gamers would have softened.
3 up, 0 down
bigrailer19
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:30:29 AM
I don't think that will be the case. To much goes on in the end of ME3. I don't know how they would pull it together. You never know though.
2 up, 0 down
___________
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:23:51 AM
that very small detail explains everything wrong with the game.
i mean if you cant spare a few moments to detail the crews story, the people you have spent years with doing the impossible defeating a deralict reaper, then defeating the collectors, then standing up to a entire race of reapers, thats just fudged!
i developed a real connection with allot of the characters, especially joker, edi, miranda and liara, you really dont get to see there events during the struggle.
its like heavy rain ending where you enter the warehouse!
i was really expecting a layout of the ending i got, why i got it and what i could change to get other things.
everything in the game feels rushed!
the side missions even no more can you talk to NPCs and try get more info out of them.
on particular mission i remember ME2 you could help a slave get out of her contract.
there were so many ways you could do it.
you could talk to her owner and convince her to do it, find a loop hole in the law so her contract was void, you could speak to her previous owner and get her back, there were 101 ways to get her free!
ME3 though you dont even get to talk to the NPCs so you cant do jack!
its all pre set, the whole game just feels seriously rushed!
to call it linear would be understatement of the century!
not only does the ending scream i was rushed, the whole game screams it at the top of its lungs!
which really makes me wonder WTF did bioware do with the extra 4+ months of development the game had?
my money goes on kinect support and thats it.
sad.
kinect support over improving the quality, thats what this industry has come to!
lets waste our time getting 2 more sales, instead of improving the game for our true fans!
sad.........
Last edited by ___________ on 4/10/2012 10:30:22 AM
i mean if you cant spare a few moments to detail the crews story, the people you have spent years with doing the impossible defeating a deralict reaper, then defeating the collectors, then standing up to a entire race of reapers, thats just fudged!
i developed a real connection with allot of the characters, especially joker, edi, miranda and liara, you really dont get to see there events during the struggle.
its like heavy rain ending where you enter the warehouse!
i was really expecting a layout of the ending i got, why i got it and what i could change to get other things.
everything in the game feels rushed!
the side missions even no more can you talk to NPCs and try get more info out of them.
on particular mission i remember ME2 you could help a slave get out of her contract.
there were so many ways you could do it.
you could talk to her owner and convince her to do it, find a loop hole in the law so her contract was void, you could speak to her previous owner and get her back, there were 101 ways to get her free!
ME3 though you dont even get to talk to the NPCs so you cant do jack!
its all pre set, the whole game just feels seriously rushed!
to call it linear would be understatement of the century!
not only does the ending scream i was rushed, the whole game screams it at the top of its lungs!
which really makes me wonder WTF did bioware do with the extra 4+ months of development the game had?
my money goes on kinect support and thats it.
sad.
kinect support over improving the quality, thats what this industry has come to!
lets waste our time getting 2 more sales, instead of improving the game for our true fans!
sad.........
Last edited by ___________ on 4/10/2012 10:30:22 AM
4 up, 2 down
bigrailer19
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:29:21 AM
Reply
I just finished one of the three endings, the ending itself is not what I see as "bad". I think the game Is satisfying but I can now (after finishing it) see where some frustration is coming from. I'm not one who would yell for a new ending, I think it's wrong to ask for one and I don't think Bioware should have given in, although I am now excited to see what they do. So it's a win win for me, cus I get more ME!
*****SPOILERS*****
My problem with the endings is they all seem to, I don't know, diminish the whole point of the game. In ME2 Shepard assembles a crew of the best soldiers. Through out ME3 it goes further and instead of assembling a crew you bring worlds and races, both organics and synthetics together to fight for survival. In the end the 3 choices you have to make neglect most of the choices you've made along the way. That's all I'll say but it almost defeats the purpose. That's a little frustrating not being able to have just one more choice at the end that could do more...
*****END SPOILERS*****
Anyways again it's fine, I'm going to finish the other 2 endings tomorrow and see what happens. Although you're pretty much told in the final minutes. I just want to see how it plays out. Also looking forward to this "extended cut".
Last edited by bigrailer19 on 4/10/2012 1:30:57 AM
*****SPOILERS*****
My problem with the endings is they all seem to, I don't know, diminish the whole point of the game. In ME2 Shepard assembles a crew of the best soldiers. Through out ME3 it goes further and instead of assembling a crew you bring worlds and races, both organics and synthetics together to fight for survival. In the end the 3 choices you have to make neglect most of the choices you've made along the way. That's all I'll say but it almost defeats the purpose. That's a little frustrating not being able to have just one more choice at the end that could do more...
*****END SPOILERS*****
Anyways again it's fine, I'm going to finish the other 2 endings tomorrow and see what happens. Although you're pretty much told in the final minutes. I just want to see how it plays out. Also looking forward to this "extended cut".
Last edited by bigrailer19 on 4/10/2012 1:30:57 AM
2 up, 0 down
Fane1024
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:35:08 PM
Thanks for the warning, bigrailer; it allowed me to read the rest of your comment.
0 up, 0 down
bigrailer19
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 8:28:43 PM
Well you're welcome. I really didn't say too much that is really involved but I know how It can be to read something thatcan completely ruin it.
0 up, 0 down
Heartless Angel
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:33:11 AM
Reply
I miss the good old days. Ending sucked!(Moves on)
5 up, 0 down
Douchebaguette
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 2:56:23 AM
Reply
I somewhat agree with the attitude issue among fans, but I can see how many of PSXE community can't see how much of a big deal it is towards huge fans of the Mass Effect series (unsurprisingly, since they probably didn't get the opportunity to delve into the first game to fully enjoy their trilogy career that they've made decisions for, to an emotional extent).
I'm playing Mass Effect 3 now, and despite not reaching the end yet I was really worried more about how the story and core elements could of changed due to replacing the main writer and composer for ME3. Though despite it being abit "dudebro" like Brad from 4PlayerPodcast states, I can now sigh in relief. They did a good job. GUDJOB! =]. I prefer it over the dumbed down and contradictory Mass Effect 2, indefinately. Infact so far, I find story elements of ME3 to pick up and mend on ME2's narrative flaws. The gameplay, features and mechanics didn't take the best of both worlds from previous games, but instead comprimised and blended them, which I am more than content with.
Which makes me wonder...if the game itself is great, then how bad an ending is it really? For me personally, as long as the story remains stale then I could care less whether or not it makes all my decisions throughout all three previous games rendered nullified (though that does sound like a huge let down, I must admit). I am prepared for the ending.
Apparently (claims a friend) that if you gain enough war assets, you may bump into a secret ending.
I'm playing Mass Effect 3 now, and despite not reaching the end yet I was really worried more about how the story and core elements could of changed due to replacing the main writer and composer for ME3. Though despite it being abit "dudebro" like Brad from 4PlayerPodcast states, I can now sigh in relief. They did a good job. GUDJOB! =]. I prefer it over the dumbed down and contradictory Mass Effect 2, indefinately. Infact so far, I find story elements of ME3 to pick up and mend on ME2's narrative flaws. The gameplay, features and mechanics didn't take the best of both worlds from previous games, but instead comprimised and blended them, which I am more than content with.
Which makes me wonder...if the game itself is great, then how bad an ending is it really? For me personally, as long as the story remains stale then I could care less whether or not it makes all my decisions throughout all three previous games rendered nullified (though that does sound like a huge let down, I must admit). I am prepared for the ending.
Apparently (claims a friend) that if you gain enough war assets, you may bump into a secret ending.
3 up, 0 down
Douchebaguette
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 3:01:34 AM
I noticed I accidentally referred to the Mass Effect plot as "stale." THAT DIDN'T COME OUT RIGHT, I SWEAR.
2 up, 0 down
kageneko
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 3:07:19 AM
Reply
The Mass Effect series had the potential to redefine art as it applies to video games. It had the stunning visuals, it had moving music, it had acting and writing to shame some of the best that Hollywood has to offer. This game could have set the standard for gaming and games as art for years to come.
Instead, it fell flat on its face inches from the goal. It committed several cardinal sins of writing. Calling that ending art is like calling bathroom graffiti art. It deserves better. BioWare deserves better. And the loyal fans who recognize the abject failure that was the ending deserve better. This isn't about trying to force BioWare to bend to what we want, it's about trying to get BioWare to see what an abysmal failure that ending was, to see the potential we see in the franchise, and to see how changing the ending is the right thing to do to honor the quality of the rest of the game.
Those who say "it's just a game", they have a point. But it's also art. And art is important in this world. It serves a purpose - to inspire, to teach, to uplift, or to be a reflection of ourselves, our society, or the world around us. Art - good art anyway - is more than just a fun diversion. Good art can change the world. There's a video on YouTube entitled "One of the best inspirational videos ever". It's a clip from a reality game show. In it, a rather unassuming (to put it kindly) woman says she wants to be as famous as one of the most famous performers in England. Everyone in the audience rolls their eyes, or snickers. No one believes this woman will amount to anything. Within seconds of her opening her mouth to sing, the audience has been won over completely. The power of her voice changed the minds of everyone in that audience. That video has over 33 million views. And had she stood up there and written a computer program, or juggled, or audited a bank account, no one would have been impressed, no one would have been inspired. Art has power, art can change the world. Why shouldn't we want to see this series that was, up to the last few minutes, absolutely brilliant art, succeed as a complete and profound work of art, instead of existing in the broken state it's in now?
Instead, it fell flat on its face inches from the goal. It committed several cardinal sins of writing. Calling that ending art is like calling bathroom graffiti art. It deserves better. BioWare deserves better. And the loyal fans who recognize the abject failure that was the ending deserve better. This isn't about trying to force BioWare to bend to what we want, it's about trying to get BioWare to see what an abysmal failure that ending was, to see the potential we see in the franchise, and to see how changing the ending is the right thing to do to honor the quality of the rest of the game.
Those who say "it's just a game", they have a point. But it's also art. And art is important in this world. It serves a purpose - to inspire, to teach, to uplift, or to be a reflection of ourselves, our society, or the world around us. Art - good art anyway - is more than just a fun diversion. Good art can change the world. There's a video on YouTube entitled "One of the best inspirational videos ever". It's a clip from a reality game show. In it, a rather unassuming (to put it kindly) woman says she wants to be as famous as one of the most famous performers in England. Everyone in the audience rolls their eyes, or snickers. No one believes this woman will amount to anything. Within seconds of her opening her mouth to sing, the audience has been won over completely. The power of her voice changed the minds of everyone in that audience. That video has over 33 million views. And had she stood up there and written a computer program, or juggled, or audited a bank account, no one would have been impressed, no one would have been inspired. Art has power, art can change the world. Why shouldn't we want to see this series that was, up to the last few minutes, absolutely brilliant art, succeed as a complete and profound work of art, instead of existing in the broken state it's in now?
4 up, 3 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:12:22 AM
Glad you see it as art.
Unfortunate that you think an artist should bow to the whims of the masses and change completed work.
Unfortunate that you think an artist should bow to the whims of the masses and change completed work.
3 up, 3 down
kageneko
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:29:35 PM
What I see is that an artist should aspire to be the best that they can be. I don't want BioWare to change the ending because we force them to. I want them to see the flaws in the ending and address them the way I know they can. I want them to take an objective look at their work, separate themselves from the fact that they created it, and see what it is that we see. I see our role as something more like an editor or proofreader, drawing the artist's attention to the flaws in their product.
And there's no such thing as "completed work". Not with a media like this anyway. Art can and does change all the time, for better or for worse. Just look at Lucas. Look at Arthur Conan Doyle, look at Charles Dickens, da Vinci, Michelangelo, Van Gogh - all of them have made significant changes to their works of art, either at the request of fans, or because they saw something they wanted changed, or because the person paying the bills told them to. The world is no worse off because Holmes was brought back from the dead, or the Sistine Chapel was painted by a sculptor. In fact, it's better for it. I want the same thing for this series.
And there's no such thing as "completed work". Not with a media like this anyway. Art can and does change all the time, for better or for worse. Just look at Lucas. Look at Arthur Conan Doyle, look at Charles Dickens, da Vinci, Michelangelo, Van Gogh - all of them have made significant changes to their works of art, either at the request of fans, or because they saw something they wanted changed, or because the person paying the bills told them to. The world is no worse off because Holmes was brought back from the dead, or the Sistine Chapel was painted by a sculptor. In fact, it's better for it. I want the same thing for this series.
3 up, 1 down
telly
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:08:37 PM
Holy S**t, did you just compare Mass Effect to the Sistine Chapel?
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 3:26:23 PM
No. That is the biggest problem of this generation, thinking the times can actually change art. We CANNOT be that egotistical.
You can call it art or you can call it media; you can't say because it's a different form of art, we're allowed to bend the rules and say artists must FIRST put the public's interests at heart. Then it only becomes a product for sale and nothing more, and the art part flies out the window.
Art is about communication. And yes, if it's a finished product, it's a finished product. If it didn't speak to you, too bad. If you didn't connect with the artist, feel free to say, "I'm sorry, but this isn't doing it for me." Anything beyond that is allowing consumers to turn art into something it isn't and can NEVER be.
Either that, or simply don't call the game art. Just call it a consumer product and nothing more; then all complaints are valid.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 3:26:52 PM
You can call it art or you can call it media; you can't say because it's a different form of art, we're allowed to bend the rules and say artists must FIRST put the public's interests at heart. Then it only becomes a product for sale and nothing more, and the art part flies out the window.
Art is about communication. And yes, if it's a finished product, it's a finished product. If it didn't speak to you, too bad. If you didn't connect with the artist, feel free to say, "I'm sorry, but this isn't doing it for me." Anything beyond that is allowing consumers to turn art into something it isn't and can NEVER be.
Either that, or simply don't call the game art. Just call it a consumer product and nothing more; then all complaints are valid.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 3:26:52 PM
0 up, 1 down
xenris
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 9:26:51 AM
You can't call this stuff art anymore, it has artistic qualities but so do a lot of forms of media. Its also such a broad media medium that you have to draw some lines. Journey is art, its purely about evoking emotions. But would you call angry birds art? Probably not, would you call farmville art? See what I'm getting at here? Most games from big publishers are way to monetized and annualized for it to be taken as pure ART. It is marketed as a PRODUCT Ben what part of that don't you understand? Watch E3 videos and EA calls all their games products, and products and first and foremost for making money and to fill a need or a want that consumers want. So yes the consumer is right in most cases.
Games started out as something people made for other people in so they could have fun or lose themselves in another world. Now maybe the games we get now are "quality" but a huge chunk of games are falling into the same blurry category of desert shooters. Its almost exactly what happened when the industry crashed in 83. Companies pushing out too many games and of low quality, in our case now its the same thing but instead they may be polished but they are the same as the last shooter.
Are some games art? Yes but artistic games are a genre inside the medium. You can't call all video games art because thats just not even close to being true. Games like Flower, Journey, Limbo, Dear Esther are indeed art. They have a purpose to evoke emotion and thought with very simplistic gameplay. But most games on the iPhone or on facebook are not art. Just like a lot of games from big publishers aren't art, they might have an emotional story but again if its being marketing has commercials, and bloody soft drinks named after them, it is no longer art, it is a product plain and simple.
Games started out as something people made for other people in so they could have fun or lose themselves in another world. Now maybe the games we get now are "quality" but a huge chunk of games are falling into the same blurry category of desert shooters. Its almost exactly what happened when the industry crashed in 83. Companies pushing out too many games and of low quality, in our case now its the same thing but instead they may be polished but they are the same as the last shooter.
Are some games art? Yes but artistic games are a genre inside the medium. You can't call all video games art because thats just not even close to being true. Games like Flower, Journey, Limbo, Dear Esther are indeed art. They have a purpose to evoke emotion and thought with very simplistic gameplay. But most games on the iPhone or on facebook are not art. Just like a lot of games from big publishers aren't art, they might have an emotional story but again if its being marketing has commercials, and bloody soft drinks named after them, it is no longer art, it is a product plain and simple.
2 up, 0 down
QuixoticMage
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 4:03:07 AM
Reply
Really, you're warning us now? Oh my.
If you have a group of people complaining about how something is of poor quality, and then you promise to give them MORE of that same thing of the same poor quality, then they will likely continue to complain about the poor quality.
Seems like common sense to me.
If you have a group of people complaining about how something is of poor quality, and then you promise to give them MORE of that same thing of the same poor quality, then they will likely continue to complain about the poor quality.
Seems like common sense to me.
6 up, 2 down
Crabba
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 4:33:36 AM
Yeah I agree, if people don't like it they have a perfectly good right to complain about it, and that has nothing to do with entitlement, but with expectations.
If noone complained about things like this, how would they know people didn't like it? Bioware would just assume it sold great so obviously people must have loved it, and made a sequel even worse than the previous one.
If noone complained about things like this, how would they know people didn't like it? Bioware would just assume it sold great so obviously people must have loved it, and made a sequel even worse than the previous one.
3 up, 2 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:21:41 AM
Anyone who thinks ME3 or it's predecessors is poor quality because of 5 minutes worth of writing that they are upset didn't go their way, has a long way to pull their head out of the southern side of lost daylight.
2 up, 4 down
Crabba
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 4:29:20 AM
Reply
Well I have yet to play ME3 so I don't know how the ending is, but from reading a lot of comments about it, I have yet to see a single person saying they thought the ending to ME3 was great, and a LOT of them saying it's complete garbage, including plot holes, disregard for what you did throughout the series and things like that tell me this doesn't seem to be a case of difference in 'artistic vision', but sounds more like Bioware was too busy working on the multiplayer feature than finishing the actual game properly.
Add that to the day-one DLC garbage and reviews saying ME3 is even more of a pure action-game than ME2 was, and I'm in no hurry to play this one, which is really sad because I thought the first Mass Effect was a great game, and the second slightly less so...
Add that to the day-one DLC garbage and reviews saying ME3 is even more of a pure action-game than ME2 was, and I'm in no hurry to play this one, which is really sad because I thought the first Mass Effect was a great game, and the second slightly less so...
2 up, 1 down
___________
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 5:14:44 AM
Reply
of course its not going to solve the problem!
they have destroyed one of the industries best series ever created!
the WHOLE series, countless years of work all came down to the ending of ME3 and they sh*tted on it thus sh*tting on the entire series!
you can f*ck your bosses wife, then say sorry, buy him a Ferrari, buy him a holiday house, a private jet, whatever, anything, but that does not magically erase the fact that you f*cked his wife!
so in short they can do whatever they want, but unless bioware has been sitting on some secret plans for a time machine no matter what they do they cant fix their f*ckup!
they can make it better, but never fix it!
hopefully they do help the problem though, if the DLC is anything like the game then all i can say is god help them!
i just hope there not running into a hornets nest ruffling the place up, then coming back and blowing it up!
they have destroyed one of the industries best series ever created!
the WHOLE series, countless years of work all came down to the ending of ME3 and they sh*tted on it thus sh*tting on the entire series!
you can f*ck your bosses wife, then say sorry, buy him a Ferrari, buy him a holiday house, a private jet, whatever, anything, but that does not magically erase the fact that you f*cked his wife!
so in short they can do whatever they want, but unless bioware has been sitting on some secret plans for a time machine no matter what they do they cant fix their f*ckup!
they can make it better, but never fix it!
hopefully they do help the problem though, if the DLC is anything like the game then all i can say is god help them!
i just hope there not running into a hornets nest ruffling the place up, then coming back and blowing it up!
4 up, 3 down
pnexus
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:08:09 AM
Reply
Are you really saying that a client shouldn't complain about having a commodity as advertised and promoted? Fans shouldn't complain because they are "standing by their ending" for us? It is exactly what most fans didn't want. And you can't please everyone? How about just the majority of your fanbase? Isn't that in their best interest to actually be true to their word and give the fans what they promised?
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/
“There
are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could
you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be
forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any
more than that…”
The uninformed and self serving "opinions" of some "journalists" is only making a mock of their client base.
To defend a company that fails their costumers with the complete opposite of the advertised product, shows a lot about you!
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/
“There
are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could
you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be
forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any
more than that…”
The uninformed and self serving "opinions" of some "journalists" is only making a mock of their client base.
To defend a company that fails their costumers with the complete opposite of the advertised product, shows a lot about you!
3 up, 3 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:13:59 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I said. I said it in the article where ME3 fans were RIGHT.
No, the attitude. The whining, self-righteous, we deserve everything because we say so ATTITUDE.
Good to see it hasn't disappeared but has only gotten stronger. Yeah, this whole thing is the fault of journalists. Mm-hm. Of course it is. Because the CONSUMER is NEVER at fault, right?
P.S. Good job not reading a single solitary word after the headline.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 9:43:03 AM
No, the attitude. The whining, self-righteous, we deserve everything because we say so ATTITUDE.
Good to see it hasn't disappeared but has only gotten stronger. Yeah, this whole thing is the fault of journalists. Mm-hm. Of course it is. Because the CONSUMER is NEVER at fault, right?
P.S. Good job not reading a single solitary word after the headline.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 9:43:03 AM
3 up, 2 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:04:51 AM
Its more of, the product didn't deliver what it was marketed to deliver. Not people being unhappy just because they are choosing to bash for no reason. I admit though some are way to harsh with their words.
Video games being expensive and some people feel cheated for their 70 dollars.
Ben all people are saying is that they want what they were promised and considering the game was marketed and sold on those promises is that so wrong?
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 10:08:24 AM
Video games being expensive and some people feel cheated for their 70 dollars.
Ben all people are saying is that they want what they were promised and considering the game was marketed and sold on those promises is that so wrong?
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 10:08:24 AM
5 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:23:01 AM
@Xenris
No, and Ben said they have a right to complain. It's not that they're complaining. It's HOW the majority of outcries complained.
Not sure what you're missing, exactly...
No, and Ben said they have a right to complain. It's not that they're complaining. It's HOW the majority of outcries complained.
Not sure what you're missing, exactly...
2 up, 2 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:33:41 AM
Um, because Ben just said in this article that people shouldn't complain about this extended DLC. People aren't saying we deserve everything because we say so, they are saying we deserve X because we were promised X and given Y.
As far as attitude, sure people are going about it poorly but its a different means to the same end. I don't agree with the harsh and violent attitude some people have but its still to get what they were promised in their product.
Also it was not the majority of outcries that were terrible attitudes, those were merely the loudest. Thats the case with any type of protest, the radical things make the news.
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 11:35:10 AM
As far as attitude, sure people are going about it poorly but its a different means to the same end. I don't agree with the harsh and violent attitude some people have but its still to get what they were promised in their product.
Also it was not the majority of outcries that were terrible attitudes, those were merely the loudest. Thats the case with any type of protest, the radical things make the news.
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 11:35:10 AM
5 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:59:47 AM
This is probably terrible to say, but I've been saying that in a while in the forums that the endings weren't likely to be as various as they have led people to believe.
I said they'll give the impression of choice, but it wouldn't matter.
Guess I was right.
I said they'll give the impression of choice, but it wouldn't matter.
Guess I was right.
2 up, 1 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 1:10:55 PM
Yeah, people who read the script early seemed to know this as well. I didn't think they could hold up on giving an insane amount of endings that were all cutscenes or something.
But what I was hoping for was something like Dragon Age: Origin you know. An epilogue that would narrate your choices throughout the games.
But what I was hoping for was something like Dragon Age: Origin you know. An epilogue that would narrate your choices throughout the games.
3 up, 0 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 8:43:47 AM
Reply
*snicker*
And people think FF fans are big complainers. We have a new king in that town!
And people think FF fans are big complainers. We have a new king in that town!
2 up, 1 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 8:52:09 AM
Reply
Just because people were happy with the ending and didn't think it was that bad, DOES NOT mean that it didn't contradict and retcon its own established lore, and have terribly nonsensical writing AND scenes.
People were told that the choices through all 3 games would drastically change the ending, and EVERYTHING would be tied off. Also we were promised closure.
So the decided the best closure was an ending that people would wildly speculate about? Up until the week before they released it, Casey hudson still had a nerve to say, that there would be a stagering amount of endings, based on what you did in ALL THREE GAMES. He lied about his product, and this is a product before it is art, not only do publishers sell it as a product, but it is monetized like a product, NOT ART.
So here we are, a terrible ending that makes no sense, has terrible writing, and rips off deus ex to the T. Now they are saying they will extend this and add more closure, but not change the ending.
I'll list why people still have the right to complain.
1- The endings plot holes are pretty much irreparable, the only way to fix them is to further destroy the established lore, or in fact add more plot holes.
2- The relays exploded and from Arrival DLC in ME2 we know that that means the entire star system gets destroyed. So one jokers ship should have exploded, but even if for some space magic reason it didn't, there should be pretty much no planets left in the galaxy. If there are then they have to do some serious adam and eve work.
3- Have fun explaining how the people with you when you get hit by the lazer some how ended up in jokers ship. Or why joker was not still fighting above and was in fact running away?
4- Have fun explaining how the geth are normally not hostile at all towards organics but the space star child moron says that synthetics will always turn on organics. Have fun explaining where he came up with this logic, when in fact the only reason synthetics turn on organics is because of the reapers indoctrination. Which in turn contradicts their motives. Am I to believe the all powerful reapers are actually my bros and they wipe out organics so that...organics wont get wiped out by synthetics...can you see how this makes NO sense. Also this is a rip off of an old anime from the 80s.
5- How are they going to explain the little gasp of breath shepard takes in the hidden ending? So we know the only way to get that is to destroy the reapers, and that means that shepard who has no armour and is almost dead to begin with, somehow survives the crucible and citadel exploding ina firey ball of death, AND THEN survives re entry into the atmosphere like he did in ME2(which again defies logic and basic phsyics of something re entering the atmosphere....he should have been dust)
6- if they somehow roll with the indoctrination theory, they are in a similar pickle of trying to explain all sorts of stuff. Not to mention giving us DLC that lets us you know...actually finish the war.
The stuff listed about the ending are facts. So if you are content with the ending that is fine, but there are some glaring issues with it that some people can't and wont just brush under the rug.
Bottom line, this free DLC is a cool idea but I'm more interested to see how they are going to try and climb out of the hole they dug and I commend them.
People were told that the choices through all 3 games would drastically change the ending, and EVERYTHING would be tied off. Also we were promised closure.
So the decided the best closure was an ending that people would wildly speculate about? Up until the week before they released it, Casey hudson still had a nerve to say, that there would be a stagering amount of endings, based on what you did in ALL THREE GAMES. He lied about his product, and this is a product before it is art, not only do publishers sell it as a product, but it is monetized like a product, NOT ART.
So here we are, a terrible ending that makes no sense, has terrible writing, and rips off deus ex to the T. Now they are saying they will extend this and add more closure, but not change the ending.
I'll list why people still have the right to complain.
1- The endings plot holes are pretty much irreparable, the only way to fix them is to further destroy the established lore, or in fact add more plot holes.
2- The relays exploded and from Arrival DLC in ME2 we know that that means the entire star system gets destroyed. So one jokers ship should have exploded, but even if for some space magic reason it didn't, there should be pretty much no planets left in the galaxy. If there are then they have to do some serious adam and eve work.
3- Have fun explaining how the people with you when you get hit by the lazer some how ended up in jokers ship. Or why joker was not still fighting above and was in fact running away?
4- Have fun explaining how the geth are normally not hostile at all towards organics but the space star child moron says that synthetics will always turn on organics. Have fun explaining where he came up with this logic, when in fact the only reason synthetics turn on organics is because of the reapers indoctrination. Which in turn contradicts their motives. Am I to believe the all powerful reapers are actually my bros and they wipe out organics so that...organics wont get wiped out by synthetics...can you see how this makes NO sense. Also this is a rip off of an old anime from the 80s.
5- How are they going to explain the little gasp of breath shepard takes in the hidden ending? So we know the only way to get that is to destroy the reapers, and that means that shepard who has no armour and is almost dead to begin with, somehow survives the crucible and citadel exploding ina firey ball of death, AND THEN survives re entry into the atmosphere like he did in ME2(which again defies logic and basic phsyics of something re entering the atmosphere....he should have been dust)
6- if they somehow roll with the indoctrination theory, they are in a similar pickle of trying to explain all sorts of stuff. Not to mention giving us DLC that lets us you know...actually finish the war.
The stuff listed about the ending are facts. So if you are content with the ending that is fine, but there are some glaring issues with it that some people can't and wont just brush under the rug.
Bottom line, this free DLC is a cool idea but I'm more interested to see how they are going to try and climb out of the hole they dug and I commend them.
5 up, 3 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:14:24 AM
Just admit nothing would make you happy. Please.
4 up, 6 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:53:51 AM
I'm totally happy, I think the game is great up until the ending. But what makes me sad is how I don't feel like replaying the whole trilogy to see how my choices effect the grand finale.
If the ending was set up to allow for more play throughs of the first 3 games in order to get different endings, well I think that is really what people wanted in the first place.
Nothing that Bioware does from here on out is going to change my happiness levels. I actually could be content with the DLC they are making, I just listed the obstacles they are going to have to overcome. These obstacles are facts that some people myself included have a hard time overlooking. I am genuinely excited/curious to see how they are going to do this, thats not sarcasm.
Believe it or not I'm not a Bioware hater, I have been a fan of theirs since Baldurs gate, and my personal favourite game of theirs was Jade Empire. I think the reason the ending is such a let down for me is I have seen their potential, and the ending is just this mish mash copy fest of other games movies and animes that really shocked me coming from Bioware.
I don't think its entitlement either, to be upset over your product not delivering what you were told it was going to does it?
I know you hate my comments and probably me too, but I think the difference between us is I invested a lot of time into the trilogy, only to be met with an ending that doesn't warrant much replay value of the entire trilogy, which is something that Bioware said they were going to do and I was kind of expecting.
So I guess what would make me happy with this extended thing is if they could make it in a way that warranted more play throughs of the entire trilogy.
If the ending was set up to allow for more play throughs of the first 3 games in order to get different endings, well I think that is really what people wanted in the first place.
Nothing that Bioware does from here on out is going to change my happiness levels. I actually could be content with the DLC they are making, I just listed the obstacles they are going to have to overcome. These obstacles are facts that some people myself included have a hard time overlooking. I am genuinely excited/curious to see how they are going to do this, thats not sarcasm.
Believe it or not I'm not a Bioware hater, I have been a fan of theirs since Baldurs gate, and my personal favourite game of theirs was Jade Empire. I think the reason the ending is such a let down for me is I have seen their potential, and the ending is just this mish mash copy fest of other games movies and animes that really shocked me coming from Bioware.
I don't think its entitlement either, to be upset over your product not delivering what you were told it was going to does it?
I know you hate my comments and probably me too, but I think the difference between us is I invested a lot of time into the trilogy, only to be met with an ending that doesn't warrant much replay value of the entire trilogy, which is something that Bioware said they were going to do and I was kind of expecting.
So I guess what would make me happy with this extended thing is if they could make it in a way that warranted more play throughs of the entire trilogy.
5 up, 2 down
Comic Shaman
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:50:17 AM
Well, we can hope that out of all the lessons Bioware might take away from their Mass Effect 3 experience, they figure out how to be more careful with their pre-release hype. They really screwed the pooch on that score.
But there's a big problem with vastly divergent endings, which is that they want to continue the Mass Effect series. If the endings are too different, they'll have to create extremely different starting points for entering the inevitable non-Shepard ME4.
Unless they decide to make one ending canon and discount your choices in the previous games, that is. Which pretty much goes against their vision for the series.
So it puts them in a pickle. In Mass Effect, the "choices" tend to be different paths to more or less the same outcome (not always, but often). I think they could have created hugely different endings if they really wanted Mass Effect 3 to be the final installment in the entire series, but if they want to continue the franchise (which of course they do), there's only so much flex room they have in differentiating the endings.
But there's a big problem with vastly divergent endings, which is that they want to continue the Mass Effect series. If the endings are too different, they'll have to create extremely different starting points for entering the inevitable non-Shepard ME4.
Unless they decide to make one ending canon and discount your choices in the previous games, that is. Which pretty much goes against their vision for the series.
So it puts them in a pickle. In Mass Effect, the "choices" tend to be different paths to more or less the same outcome (not always, but often). I think they could have created hugely different endings if they really wanted Mass Effect 3 to be the final installment in the entire series, but if they want to continue the franchise (which of course they do), there's only so much flex room they have in differentiating the endings.
3 up, 1 down
Lairfan
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:51:27 AM
@xenris:
You could have put a spoiler warning on that for people who haven't beaten the game.
Last edited by Lairfan on 4/10/2012 10:52:36 AM
You could have put a spoiler warning on that for people who haven't beaten the game.
Last edited by Lairfan on 4/10/2012 10:52:36 AM
1 up, 0 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:26:11 AM
I actually thought I put a spoiler tag, I must have messed something up with the edit.
0 up, 0 down
oldmike
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 12:52:13 PM
Comic Shaman the way the game ended there can never be a ME4
0 up, 0 down
___________
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:41:10 AM
Reply
another thing i forgot to mention is its funny how only the fans are deflated by this.
critics absolutely freaking love it!
just makes me wonder how many actually finished it, and how much that would of effected their scores on it.
for me it would of made no difference because to be honest the ending for me was not as disappointing as the rushed feeling i got from the game first from the side missions.
just another reason why i have problems with people who review games after only half finishing them!
ok you need to get it out in time for release otherwise its irrelevant, and ok you have allot of work to do.
but you dont see toyota releasing cars with door bolts half screwed in because there having trouble meeting supply and demand for their products.
in other words do one review and do it properly, instead of 20 half a$$ed!
critics absolutely freaking love it!
just makes me wonder how many actually finished it, and how much that would of effected their scores on it.
for me it would of made no difference because to be honest the ending for me was not as disappointing as the rushed feeling i got from the game first from the side missions.
just another reason why i have problems with people who review games after only half finishing them!
ok you need to get it out in time for release otherwise its irrelevant, and ok you have allot of work to do.
but you dont see toyota releasing cars with door bolts half screwed in because there having trouble meeting supply and demand for their products.
in other words do one review and do it properly, instead of 20 half a$$ed!
2 up, 2 down
Lairfan
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:59:41 AM
blankey, that's a terrible comparison in your last paragraph.
Btw, could you stop b*tching about this game? Yeah, you dislike it, we get it. Hell, we also get the fact that you dislike almost every game that comes out every year in some way, shape, or fashion. Its incredibly annoying. So could you please shut the hell up and let people who have constructive criticisms of the game speak up, instead of drowning them out with your rage rants?
Btw, could you stop b*tching about this game? Yeah, you dislike it, we get it. Hell, we also get the fact that you dislike almost every game that comes out every year in some way, shape, or fashion. Its incredibly annoying. So could you please shut the hell up and let people who have constructive criticisms of the game speak up, instead of drowning them out with your rage rants?
0 up, 1 down
SirLoin of Beef
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:58:52 AM
Reply
I'm not a huge fan of the endings and was disappointed at how little the choices I made with my Shepard from way back in ME had to do with the ending. And to be honest, it wasn't the "three color" option that irked me much anyway but all of the silly questions the cutscenes afterward asked. I'm looking forward to this DLC as I'm hoping it'll answer those nagging questions.
As far as complaining, entitled players, there's a group on the BSN trying to pool money to put up billboards near the BW and EA headquarters because they say their demands aren't being understood, they're not being listened to, etc. THAT to me is the sign of players with a crazy sense of entitlement. They're equating "BW isn't giving me what I want" with "BW isn't listening". BW is listening and has answered. These players not liking the answer doesn't mean their pleas have fallen on deaf ears.
As far as complaining, entitled players, there's a group on the BSN trying to pool money to put up billboards near the BW and EA headquarters because they say their demands aren't being understood, they're not being listened to, etc. THAT to me is the sign of players with a crazy sense of entitlement. They're equating "BW isn't giving me what I want" with "BW isn't listening". BW is listening and has answered. These players not liking the answer doesn't mean their pleas have fallen on deaf ears.
4 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:11:29 AM
Exactly correct.
This isn't about BioWare not listening, this is about spoiled rotten gamers whining. Plain and simple. I'm through giving them the benefit of the doubt.
This isn't about BioWare not listening, this is about spoiled rotten gamers whining. Plain and simple. I'm through giving them the benefit of the doubt.
4 up, 2 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:26:53 AM
Reply
Maybe it's time people realized that having choice in games isn't as advanced as they wish to believe.
Maybe it's a sign that for our current technology, it makes more sense to have a more well thought out story we are apart of and don't get to control.
ME was heralded as one of the greatest RPG's of all time... but you know what? Classic jRPG's of the PS1 and even the SNES era appear more capable of delivering a more potent storyline with plausible finish.
Just sayin'.... lots of ME fans have belittled jRPG's... but they deliver in the end.
Maybe it's a sign that for our current technology, it makes more sense to have a more well thought out story we are apart of and don't get to control.
ME was heralded as one of the greatest RPG's of all time... but you know what? Classic jRPG's of the PS1 and even the SNES era appear more capable of delivering a more potent storyline with plausible finish.
Just sayin'.... lots of ME fans have belittled jRPG's... but they deliver in the end.
2 up, 1 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 11:51:10 AM
I agree. All of this could have been avoided if they had not have said your choices were going to carry you through all three games and you would get a different ending based on that.
It was probably something they didn't think would be that hard to do but in the end turned out to be a little more tricky, due to all the variables.
I also think they would have benefited from doing maybe only two games, while they still had all the writers on board from the first game.
As for JRPGs, yeah man some of them told some really great stories. I just started playing Xenoblade and its is the BEST JRPG I have played since Dragon Quest 8. Gets rid of the tedious parts of the JRPG, and builds on what people loved about them in the first place. Loads of customization, lovable characters, a pretty sweet plot, huge world to explore, side quest coming out your wazzoo, and an amazing combat system that is like White knight chronicles combined with FF12 only better than both of those, and way more fast paced yet still really deep and tactical.
Sorry got off on a tangent :P but yeah I agree with you.
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 11:51:22 AM
It was probably something they didn't think would be that hard to do but in the end turned out to be a little more tricky, due to all the variables.
I also think they would have benefited from doing maybe only two games, while they still had all the writers on board from the first game.
As for JRPGs, yeah man some of them told some really great stories. I just started playing Xenoblade and its is the BEST JRPG I have played since Dragon Quest 8. Gets rid of the tedious parts of the JRPG, and builds on what people loved about them in the first place. Loads of customization, lovable characters, a pretty sweet plot, huge world to explore, side quest coming out your wazzoo, and an amazing combat system that is like White knight chronicles combined with FF12 only better than both of those, and way more fast paced yet still really deep and tactical.
Sorry got off on a tangent :P but yeah I agree with you.
Last edited by xenris on 4/10/2012 11:51:22 AM
1 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:01:02 PM
I've seriously considered getting a Wii just for that title.
The more I hear, the more I wants it.
The more I hear, the more I wants it.
2 up, 1 down
bigrailer19
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:21:15 PM
I think there is a big mis interpretation of this whole ending controversy. There is 3 main endings, or actually 3 choices on how to finish the game that you'll have regardless how you played through the games. But there is 16 (apparently) variations that will be played out by how you did play that also go along with 1 of the 3 choices you make at the end.
The endings don't bother me, although it would be nice to see what happened, the aftermath of everything, and to those who survived. But the 3 choices you have, to make are what bother me. They all seem to completely disregard the point of the game. It's as if you played the game doing what you did for no reason. Every one of those 3 choices completely made how I played the game irrelevant. That's what I don't like. The endings themselves though were not worth re-writing and throwing a fit over. I'm glad they are touching a little more on the matter though, and as I said in another comment I get more ME!
As far as jrpgs and ME. Well I think ME has some of the best writing and most in depth back stories, and characters we've seen. I think ME3 was done how they (BW) intended it to be done. I think they meant for the ending to have a real impact and lasting impact. They obviously succeeded but in a negative way. The ending actually was ended well, had you not had so many choices you could make throughout the 3 games.
The endings don't bother me, although it would be nice to see what happened, the aftermath of everything, and to those who survived. But the 3 choices you have, to make are what bother me. They all seem to completely disregard the point of the game. It's as if you played the game doing what you did for no reason. Every one of those 3 choices completely made how I played the game irrelevant. That's what I don't like. The endings themselves though were not worth re-writing and throwing a fit over. I'm glad they are touching a little more on the matter though, and as I said in another comment I get more ME!
As far as jrpgs and ME. Well I think ME has some of the best writing and most in depth back stories, and characters we've seen. I think ME3 was done how they (BW) intended it to be done. I think they meant for the ending to have a real impact and lasting impact. They obviously succeeded but in a negative way. The ending actually was ended well, had you not had so many choices you could make throughout the 3 games.
1 up, 1 down
Comic Shaman
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:24:57 PM
One of my all-time favorite "choice" games was Front Mission 3. For those who haven't played it, you get one pivotal choice that comes in the very beginning the game. It completely alters the course of the story -- the people who end up as your allies on one branch of the story will be your enemies on another, you get entirely different maps and missions, and even some different weapons/parts. While both stories feature certain major set pieces in common, the paths, the paths are VERY different.
And the kicker is this: the choice at the beginning seems to be an utterly trivial decision at the time. It's whether you want to go to the mall with your friend or not. You have no hint that it's going to dictate the course of your life from that point on.
It will always rank to me as one of my favorite storytelling mechanisms in a video game.
And the kicker is this: the choice at the beginning seems to be an utterly trivial decision at the time. It's whether you want to go to the mall with your friend or not. You have no hint that it's going to dictate the course of your life from that point on.
It will always rank to me as one of my favorite storytelling mechanisms in a video game.
1 up, 0 down
xenris
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 12:53:09 PM
Seriously underdog, I would try and find a cheap wii. I can't praise the game enough. Another plus I forgot to mention is the soundtrack is amazing. It has many MANY memorable pieces.
I highly recomment you get a wii and get it. It is honestly worth it. Not to mention even if you b line it for the story and dont do any side quests, your looking at close to 60 hours. Over 100 if you invest in secret bosses and stuff.
I am only 5 hours into the game but most of that time was spent doing quests for the towns people >.< The game has a staggering amount of content so far. Plus it really teaches you the fundamentals while your playing bit by bit. It doesn't swamp you with game mechanics all at once.
I highly recomment you get a wii and get it. It is honestly worth it. Not to mention even if you b line it for the story and dont do any side quests, your looking at close to 60 hours. Over 100 if you invest in secret bosses and stuff.
I am only 5 hours into the game but most of that time was spent doing quests for the towns people >.< The game has a staggering amount of content so far. Plus it really teaches you the fundamentals while your playing bit by bit. It doesn't swamp you with game mechanics all at once.
0 up, 0 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 2:22:09 PM
Reply
I'm floored by the number of misconceptions in both the article and the comments. First, let's be clear, Bioware made statements prior to the release of Mass Effect 3 that set down a pretty basic understanding of what could be expected conceptually at the end of the game. The idea that your choices would lead you to a different outcome was not a gamer made idea in this case, those ideas came straight from Bioware.
Second, if you haven't played the game, please stop commenting. Before I beat it, I was ready to say that everyone upset with the ending were 'whiners' as well. I kept my mouth shut and remained impartial. Once I beat the game, everything changed, and I understood where the complaints were coming from. Fans are calling this a betrayal because it IS a betrayal. Bioware has betrayed our trust in their words.
THANK? REALLY!? I should thank Bioware for lying to me? I should thank them for completely ignoring the mass of complaints about the ending(s) and instead spinning some PR to make the lot of use look ungrateful? I bought all of the games and put time in to see some of the greatest writing the gaming world has ever seen. I cared about the characters and invested myself in the universe. I'll gladly thank Bioware for making such a high quality series, and I'll thank them for the good times I had with it, but I will not thank them for treating their fans the way they have. This isn't a time for PR, it's a time for admitting wrongdoing and redemption. They still have a chance, but they'll never take it.
Lastly, try to stow some of that condescension next time you write one of these articles, not all of us who disliked the ending(s) have a lack of knowledge about art and storytelling, and being a commercial artist myself, I understand what it means to give a customer what they've paid for. I don't give a client my first try and call it done, I get feedback and implement the changes they request. I'm dealing with a small customer base, so I can't let dissent filter out into the masses, I have to address problems or I don't eat.
Bottom line, I just want Bioware to address the issue openly and honestly, not hide behind PR tactics. I'm sick of them trying to placate us instead of doing the right thing.
Second, if you haven't played the game, please stop commenting. Before I beat it, I was ready to say that everyone upset with the ending were 'whiners' as well. I kept my mouth shut and remained impartial. Once I beat the game, everything changed, and I understood where the complaints were coming from. Fans are calling this a betrayal because it IS a betrayal. Bioware has betrayed our trust in their words.
THANK? REALLY!? I should thank Bioware for lying to me? I should thank them for completely ignoring the mass of complaints about the ending(s) and instead spinning some PR to make the lot of use look ungrateful? I bought all of the games and put time in to see some of the greatest writing the gaming world has ever seen. I cared about the characters and invested myself in the universe. I'll gladly thank Bioware for making such a high quality series, and I'll thank them for the good times I had with it, but I will not thank them for treating their fans the way they have. This isn't a time for PR, it's a time for admitting wrongdoing and redemption. They still have a chance, but they'll never take it.
Lastly, try to stow some of that condescension next time you write one of these articles, not all of us who disliked the ending(s) have a lack of knowledge about art and storytelling, and being a commercial artist myself, I understand what it means to give a customer what they've paid for. I don't give a client my first try and call it done, I get feedback and implement the changes they request. I'm dealing with a small customer base, so I can't let dissent filter out into the masses, I have to address problems or I don't eat.
Bottom line, I just want Bioware to address the issue openly and honestly, not hide behind PR tactics. I'm sick of them trying to placate us instead of doing the right thing.
3 up, 2 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 3:22:04 PM
I will "condescend" to put whiny children in their place and that's that. I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt from the start. I said the ME3 fans were right to complain, right to stand up and be counted, and right to ask for what they wanted. All I ever asked for was the slightest modicum of civility from the majority of ME3 fans and it didn't happen. Instead, as suspected, they've proven themselves to be exactly the type of people I despise.
1 up, 1 down
Comic Shaman
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 4:23:02 PM
Harmless Pie:
Okay, if you're going to represent a reasonable position defending the Retake ME3 point of view, then I have a basic question here. What is it that you're expecting Bioware to do, precisely?
Let me clarify a bit.
GIVEN: Bioware made PR promises about ME3 and didn't live up to them.
Yep, they did. They blew it like a runny nose on that front. So... is it more of an apology that you think is in order here?
GIVEN: Many fans were upset by the ambiguity of the ending.
Okay, so I think that much can be addressed with the DLC they have announced, if they do it right. And we might get even more clarity with the unannounced but planned DLC they've talked about. I'd at least reserve judgment until I see the new DLC on that front, yes?
GIVEN: Many fans want the endings to be more reflective of the choices they made.
Now this is where I wonder what is expected by fans. Practically speaking, going back to add entirely new endings represents some huge problems. I mean, they have to be animated, programmed, voice acted, bug-checked... the logistical issues alone are enormous in terms of time and resources.
But most of all, they have to be written. Written in such a way that they're consistent with the artists' vision of not only ME3, but their future plans for Mass Effect. Listening to feedback is one thing, but I hope you agree that writing by democratic consensus produces nothing of worth, as far as I know.
Basically, what I'm saying here is that I don't know if what you're asking (if I understand you properly) is really practical or possible. I think it's perfectly valid to be hugely disappointed and to take that disappointment into account when you're thinking of future purchases from Bioware and EA. Believe me, I know how that is. I've gone through that with Square. But if you're holding out for a completely new ending structure for Mass Effect 3, I don't know think it's really feasible for Bioware to deliver.
Okay, if you're going to represent a reasonable position defending the Retake ME3 point of view, then I have a basic question here. What is it that you're expecting Bioware to do, precisely?
Let me clarify a bit.
GIVEN: Bioware made PR promises about ME3 and didn't live up to them.
Yep, they did. They blew it like a runny nose on that front. So... is it more of an apology that you think is in order here?
GIVEN: Many fans were upset by the ambiguity of the ending.
Okay, so I think that much can be addressed with the DLC they have announced, if they do it right. And we might get even more clarity with the unannounced but planned DLC they've talked about. I'd at least reserve judgment until I see the new DLC on that front, yes?
GIVEN: Many fans want the endings to be more reflective of the choices they made.
Now this is where I wonder what is expected by fans. Practically speaking, going back to add entirely new endings represents some huge problems. I mean, they have to be animated, programmed, voice acted, bug-checked... the logistical issues alone are enormous in terms of time and resources.
But most of all, they have to be written. Written in such a way that they're consistent with the artists' vision of not only ME3, but their future plans for Mass Effect. Listening to feedback is one thing, but I hope you agree that writing by democratic consensus produces nothing of worth, as far as I know.
Basically, what I'm saying here is that I don't know if what you're asking (if I understand you properly) is really practical or possible. I think it's perfectly valid to be hugely disappointed and to take that disappointment into account when you're thinking of future purchases from Bioware and EA. Believe me, I know how that is. I've gone through that with Square. But if you're holding out for a completely new ending structure for Mass Effect 3, I don't know think it's really feasible for Bioware to deliver.
2 up, 1 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 3:46:03 PM
Reply
What have you been reading? I'm not sure I've ever seen a group of gamers so polite and civil in an online environment like I've seen with the Retake movement. What sort of people do you despise? Do you despise people who expect to get what they pay for? What about people who are told that their choices will matter but in the end do not? How about people who give to charity to show that they aren't "entitled" as the gaming press seems to constantly try to imply? I would like to have a clear picture of what your problem is, because I can't imagine why you so vehemently oppose the Retake movement.
What gives you the right to call people who have a complaint about something they paid for "whiny children"? I have seen some vitriol to be certain, but nowhere near the amount of positive feedback from those who feel letdown or hurt in this situation. Overall this movement has turned a huge negative into a positive. They've formed a community of support and friendship, gotten money to charity, and have given great feedback to Bioware, and despite the fact that Bioware did not go far enough with restitution, they've still shown that they're at least willing to take a step in the right direction.
I don't see how you should in any way feel like you have any right to put any person "in their place". Your tone is very unprofessional.
What gives you the right to call people who have a complaint about something they paid for "whiny children"? I have seen some vitriol to be certain, but nowhere near the amount of positive feedback from those who feel letdown or hurt in this situation. Overall this movement has turned a huge negative into a positive. They've formed a community of support and friendship, gotten money to charity, and have given great feedback to Bioware, and despite the fact that Bioware did not go far enough with restitution, they've still shown that they're at least willing to take a step in the right direction.
I don't see how you should in any way feel like you have any right to put any person "in their place". Your tone is very unprofessional.
4 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 4:08:37 PM
It's called an editorial. If you'd like me to point you in the direction of op-ed writers in the industry of journalism that outstrip the severity of my words by leaps and bounds, I will do so. There is nothing "unprofessional" about it, and I'd thank you not to lecture me on something I've been doing for over a decade, in both print and online media.
I have every right in the world to defend the artists and developers who have done everything in their power to cater to their fans. In response to this backlash, every single official statement I have read from BioWare has been extremely pacifying and encouraging to fans. NOBODY in the "Retake" movement has any sympathy or feelings whatsoever for those involved in making the game, which is what is so disgustingly selfish about it.
Nobody gets that a large number of people who poured their heart and soul into a project were hurt by insanely idiotic comments from over-privileged fans. And even when they're obviously shocked and hurt, they STILL try to make good. They drop everything - and for most, it was probably a well-deserved vacation - and scramble to come up with an Extended Cut. But no, it's not good enough. It's not good enough because the attitude of these so-called fans is embarrassingly self-righteous.
There is not a shred of good intention towards BioWare's effort in this matter. The only "civility" you speak of is among like-minded people...yeah, real big surprise they should all get along. But they, like FAR too many gamers these days, care nothing for what developers and designers do to get these games on store shelves. Not one jot. Through it all, not one voice of reason from "Retake."
You think everyone is being noble and polite. That is NOT what comes through to the media and the outside world. I am sick and tired of gamers - and indeed, general consumers - of this generation who are SO fixated on themselves and what they think they deserve, that they never for one instant consider the human beings on the other side of the fence.
Oh yes. Such "nobility."
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 4:09:50 PM
I have every right in the world to defend the artists and developers who have done everything in their power to cater to their fans. In response to this backlash, every single official statement I have read from BioWare has been extremely pacifying and encouraging to fans. NOBODY in the "Retake" movement has any sympathy or feelings whatsoever for those involved in making the game, which is what is so disgustingly selfish about it.
Nobody gets that a large number of people who poured their heart and soul into a project were hurt by insanely idiotic comments from over-privileged fans. And even when they're obviously shocked and hurt, they STILL try to make good. They drop everything - and for most, it was probably a well-deserved vacation - and scramble to come up with an Extended Cut. But no, it's not good enough. It's not good enough because the attitude of these so-called fans is embarrassingly self-righteous.
There is not a shred of good intention towards BioWare's effort in this matter. The only "civility" you speak of is among like-minded people...yeah, real big surprise they should all get along. But they, like FAR too many gamers these days, care nothing for what developers and designers do to get these games on store shelves. Not one jot. Through it all, not one voice of reason from "Retake."
You think everyone is being noble and polite. That is NOT what comes through to the media and the outside world. I am sick and tired of gamers - and indeed, general consumers - of this generation who are SO fixated on themselves and what they think they deserve, that they never for one instant consider the human beings on the other side of the fence.
Oh yes. Such "nobility."
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 4:09:50 PM
2 up, 3 down
anjpikapp3
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 5:20:14 PM
I agree 110% with you, Ben. I feel like the Xbox/PS generation have always expected more from developers. While the Atari and NES generation have understood that we get what we get. There was no way in changing the ending of a game during the cartridge era...yet today, after a few complaints, we can completely create a new game just by adding a patch/DLC. I have played ME3 and enjoyed it very much. I thought of how the game could have ended but understood that this is the way it is and the way it will be (and I can live with that). It's a game and kept me entertained...isn't that what gaming is about? Guess not...
2 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 6:19:16 PM
heh...
Whether Ben has the right to put people in their place or not.... doesn't matter...
He just put a harmless pie in his.
Whether Ben has the right to put people in their place or not.... doesn't matter...
He just put a harmless pie in his.
2 up, 3 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:02:27 PM
Just more entitlement beneath a wall of words. Nothing more.
Embarrassing and depressing that these people are "gamers" at all.
Embarrassing and depressing that these people are "gamers" at all.
2 up, 2 down
Crabba
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:24:15 PM
Stupid question Ben, but how exactly would you like people to complain? Something more like 'I didn't like it, but I still love Bioware and keep buying all your games!'? To Bioware that ofcourse would read: 'no action necessary, keep current path'
I think it's enviable that so many people obviously care about the story in the game so much, and disappointed that the game didn't live up to the hype & expectations.
I think it's enviable that so many people obviously care about the story in the game so much, and disappointed that the game didn't live up to the hype & expectations.
2 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:30:29 PM
You've got to be kidding me. There's a very LARGE gap between "I love your game and everything about it is perfect" and "you suck and I'm going to boycott your games."
Complaints don't require hostility, ignorance, or egos the size of Wisconsin. NO journalist would've gotten on the backs of these complainers if they didn't come across as kids throwing a temper tantrum. In fact, being gamers OURSELVES, we likely would've supported it.
It should tell you something that VERY few journalists do support it.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 7:44:54 PM
Complaints don't require hostility, ignorance, or egos the size of Wisconsin. NO journalist would've gotten on the backs of these complainers if they didn't come across as kids throwing a temper tantrum. In fact, being gamers OURSELVES, we likely would've supported it.
It should tell you something that VERY few journalists do support it.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 7:44:54 PM
2 up, 1 down
Crabba
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 5:12:34 AM
Well it does tell me that a lot of game journalists rely on game publisher money for one. Not saying that's why you posted the editorial, but looking at some editorials from your fellow colleagues at IGN they've posted some pretty nasty videos that seem just as bad or worse against the fans than what the fans themselves have said to Bioware...
Besides, if people weren't actually really pissed off about the whole thing, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did, and when people are angry and disappointed they're not just going to say "Bad Bioware, that ending (and all the other cr*p) was disappointing, hope you do a better job next time", and that goes for anything, not just video games.
Besides, if people weren't actually really pissed off about the whole thing, they wouldn't have reacted the way they did, and when people are angry and disappointed they're not just going to say "Bad Bioware, that ending (and all the other cr*p) was disappointing, hope you do a better job next time", and that goes for anything, not just video games.
1 up, 0 down
xenris
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 9:20:55 AM
Ben this is not a message to the devs and MORE a lesson for the greedy publishers, who rush stuff out for profits sake. In fact EA has been cutting the money it has been putting into research and development year after year for the last 3 years, and putting more money into PR. They made increased profits from this but this is a short term solution and their stocks have been falling for quite some time, because they literally are rushing things. There DLC model is terrible, and their games usually lack content compared to games of the same genre from other publishers, not always but usually.
Mind you they are still making "profit", but they are still losing over all profit gains. Which is causing shareholders to jump ship. You can find their charts online, as they are a public company.
You can tell me to preach a corner and occupy this and that, but I really do feel bad for the devs because they are stuck in this s%@# situation. Listen to what Brian Fargo has to say about publishers, their greed is indeed ruining it. Brian Fargo is an industry veteran by the way and he is not alone in what he says about most publishers being greedy jerks. You know why devs don't speak out against it? Because they are afraid, they are in a position where they don't want to lose their jobs and their publisher so they continue to play into their game because they don't really have a choice. Although kickstarter seems to be showing huge promise as a great alternative. Also that production costs aren't nearly as high as the publishers want you to think they are.
This is what people are pissed about. Every beloved franchise EA gets their hand on, they run into the ground. If you played ME1 you would know they direction they wanted to take ME2 and ME3 in. But instead publisher influence said no, we need to reach this demographic, thats why ME2 is way more action based and way less of an RPG and the story like ME3s ending is full of stuff that contradicts the established lore.
Do you REALLY think that Bioware would create a universe and then contradict themselves in all of the games after their original? Everything about ME2 and ME3 are mimicking other shooters in order to get into the market, so they can get bigger sales numbers. They do this while sacrificing what ME1 set up in the first place, and also alienated a lot of those fans. Also ME3 cover Shepards posture is the exact same as the soldiers on the modern shooters like BF3, MW2 etc. I wonder why? Its just a cheap marketing trick and it clearly works.
This is about getting publishers to realize that we aren't going to let them run our favourite games into the ground because they want more money. This is going to help the developers more in the long run. If we call BS on the publishers, and say we're going to boycott, then their strategies, will shift. Its already worked somewhat, ME3s DLC so far has been free, why? Because EAs stocks are dropping and they need to try and keep a fanbase, or else they will crash. They need us and you can call it entitled(although it really isn't that)but your darn right they better give us what they promised or they wont exist anymore simple as that. They also will learn to not nickle and dime for on disc content and DLC. Its a GOOD thing, games did just fine before all this DLC and games being annualized existed.
Mind you they are still making "profit", but they are still losing over all profit gains. Which is causing shareholders to jump ship. You can find their charts online, as they are a public company.
You can tell me to preach a corner and occupy this and that, but I really do feel bad for the devs because they are stuck in this s%@# situation. Listen to what Brian Fargo has to say about publishers, their greed is indeed ruining it. Brian Fargo is an industry veteran by the way and he is not alone in what he says about most publishers being greedy jerks. You know why devs don't speak out against it? Because they are afraid, they are in a position where they don't want to lose their jobs and their publisher so they continue to play into their game because they don't really have a choice. Although kickstarter seems to be showing huge promise as a great alternative. Also that production costs aren't nearly as high as the publishers want you to think they are.
This is what people are pissed about. Every beloved franchise EA gets their hand on, they run into the ground. If you played ME1 you would know they direction they wanted to take ME2 and ME3 in. But instead publisher influence said no, we need to reach this demographic, thats why ME2 is way more action based and way less of an RPG and the story like ME3s ending is full of stuff that contradicts the established lore.
Do you REALLY think that Bioware would create a universe and then contradict themselves in all of the games after their original? Everything about ME2 and ME3 are mimicking other shooters in order to get into the market, so they can get bigger sales numbers. They do this while sacrificing what ME1 set up in the first place, and also alienated a lot of those fans. Also ME3 cover Shepards posture is the exact same as the soldiers on the modern shooters like BF3, MW2 etc. I wonder why? Its just a cheap marketing trick and it clearly works.
This is about getting publishers to realize that we aren't going to let them run our favourite games into the ground because they want more money. This is going to help the developers more in the long run. If we call BS on the publishers, and say we're going to boycott, then their strategies, will shift. Its already worked somewhat, ME3s DLC so far has been free, why? Because EAs stocks are dropping and they need to try and keep a fanbase, or else they will crash. They need us and you can call it entitled(although it really isn't that)but your darn right they better give us what they promised or they wont exist anymore simple as that. They also will learn to not nickle and dime for on disc content and DLC. Its a GOOD thing, games did just fine before all this DLC and games being annualized existed.
3 up, 0 down
oldmike
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 1:04:33 PM
game "journalists" at IGN who even have some one from them in the game are behind many attacks
that is why most dont trust them Ben i know your not paid for but i think you not being a fan is why you will not see from the other side
sad wean i go to Forbes for ME3 news
that is why most dont trust them Ben i know your not paid for but i think you not being a fan is why you will not see from the other side
sad wean i go to Forbes for ME3 news
0 up, 0 down
Crabba
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 5:48:44 PM
well said xenris, that's pretty much exactly how I feel as well! If noone stands up to these greedy cash-grabbing publishers they will just keep ruining great games, adding even more stuff like Online Passes and day-one DLC..
The developers aren't the ones pushing for these changes, and forcing this on games, and like you said, ME1 was a whole different game, and was sadly changed in each sequel to try to please a wider market, and by doing so instead pissing off their real fans.
'I wonder why? Its just a cheap marketing trick and it clearly works.'
Actually, I'm not so sure it did work as well for them as they hoped. According to recent sales figures of 1.5M for ME3, they can't be very happy about that... So, it doesn't look like they were able to capture that CoD market everyone seems to be after these days after all... And probably lost a lot of sales to RPG fans who didn't want another multiplayer shooter...
The developers aren't the ones pushing for these changes, and forcing this on games, and like you said, ME1 was a whole different game, and was sadly changed in each sequel to try to please a wider market, and by doing so instead pissing off their real fans.
'I wonder why? Its just a cheap marketing trick and it clearly works.'
Actually, I'm not so sure it did work as well for them as they hoped. According to recent sales figures of 1.5M for ME3, they can't be very happy about that... So, it doesn't look like they were able to capture that CoD market everyone seems to be after these days after all... And probably lost a lot of sales to RPG fans who didn't want another multiplayer shooter...
1 up, 0 down
xenris
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 6:59:00 PM
Yeah, I honestly have to wait and see about how well ME3 sold. I've done some research and been getting mixed messages. VGchartz says its like 3 million or something world wide?
But ME2 did have really good sales, because of its shooter changes. I think if ME3 does worse it would be because the From Ashes day one DLC controversy and the fact that people really quickly started ripping on the ending.
I'm glad you realize too its not the devs fault its the publishers. My friends and I have been researching this stuff, and watching trends and its very much real.
Plus for anyone who thumbs us down or disagrees, I strongly suggest you find some stuff Brian Fargo an industry veteran is talking about. Which is basically how publishers are started to ruin the industry with greed.
But ME2 did have really good sales, because of its shooter changes. I think if ME3 does worse it would be because the From Ashes day one DLC controversy and the fact that people really quickly started ripping on the ending.
I'm glad you realize too its not the devs fault its the publishers. My friends and I have been researching this stuff, and watching trends and its very much real.
Plus for anyone who thumbs us down or disagrees, I strongly suggest you find some stuff Brian Fargo an industry veteran is talking about. Which is basically how publishers are started to ruin the industry with greed.
2 up, 0 down
Crabba
Thursday, April 12, 2012 @ 12:24:47 AM
I'm no big fan of IGN, but there was an article there a few days ago that said 'Leading analyst Doug Creutz is telling investors that EA's Mass Effect 3 sold a respectable 1.5 million units in the U.S in March.' and 'In a new note, Creutz, from Cowen Research, says, "We believe that EA's Mass Effect 3 likely performed quite well with over 1.5 million in estimated console unit sales during March."'
That doesn't sound like the kind of big hit I'm assuming they were expecting.
Also, who's to say ME2 sales were much higher because of the shooter changes? It could just be because the first ME accumulated a lot of fans who then wanted to buy the sequel. And maybe, just maybe people were disappointed with the changes resulting in worse sales for the 3rd entry, of course in addition to the day-one DLC and other nastiness that's sure to lower total sales for the game.
I have to believe that Bioware aren't the ones pushing for this direction, but their greedy publishers who only see shooter dollars in their eyes. Bioware have made so many awesome true RPG's in the past such as Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Dragon Age: Origins, why would they suddenly want to make shooters?
That doesn't sound like the kind of big hit I'm assuming they were expecting.
Also, who's to say ME2 sales were much higher because of the shooter changes? It could just be because the first ME accumulated a lot of fans who then wanted to buy the sequel. And maybe, just maybe people were disappointed with the changes resulting in worse sales for the 3rd entry, of course in addition to the day-one DLC and other nastiness that's sure to lower total sales for the game.
I have to believe that Bioware aren't the ones pushing for this direction, but their greedy publishers who only see shooter dollars in their eyes. Bioware have made so many awesome true RPG's in the past such as Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Dragon Age: Origins, why would they suddenly want to make shooters?
1 up, 0 down
xenris
Thursday, April 12, 2012 @ 8:53:34 AM
Yeah exactly. The drastic change of direction doesn't make sense coming from Bioware. ME1 was really just an RPG with some shooter elements, and it really felt like a Bioware game.
I agree though, I think ME2 was being hyped by the fans, and well at least for me ME2 was a huge let down compared to ME1. Not that it wasn't a good game, but it didn't feel like a Bioware game, and it felt like a series of corridors instead of big and open like ME1 felt.
Definitely why I haven't directly purchased ME3 yet. I borrowed it, and I am super glad I did.
I agree 100% Bioware isn't to blame, unless of course all the talent that made those RPGs you listed got fired and replaced with ex infinity ward employees :P
Its funny the drastic change you can see from Dragon Age Origins to all the Bioware games coming after it. Streamlined, more action oriented, copious amounts of DLC. Its so night and day its obviously, not Biowares doing.
I agree though, I think ME2 was being hyped by the fans, and well at least for me ME2 was a huge let down compared to ME1. Not that it wasn't a good game, but it didn't feel like a Bioware game, and it felt like a series of corridors instead of big and open like ME1 felt.
Definitely why I haven't directly purchased ME3 yet. I borrowed it, and I am super glad I did.
I agree 100% Bioware isn't to blame, unless of course all the talent that made those RPGs you listed got fired and replaced with ex infinity ward employees :P
Its funny the drastic change you can see from Dragon Age Origins to all the Bioware games coming after it. Streamlined, more action oriented, copious amounts of DLC. Its so night and day its obviously, not Biowares doing.
1 up, 0 down
Crabba
Thursday, April 12, 2012 @ 5:58:26 PM
Agree 100%. I also loved ME1, it was an awesome RPG, even though it was first-personey with a bit of shooter elements in it but the core game was RPG adventure all the way! Lots of options, lots of choices and lots of dialog!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about ME2. Like you I think it was still a good, fun game, it just wasn't nearly as good as the first game! It was dumbed-down, a lot less dialog (every time you tried to talk to one of the main characters you got the same tired reply unlike the first game when you could talk to them over and over with lots of interesting dialog!) and lost nearly all of its RPG elements, luckily it at least kept a good adventure story to keep the game interesting.
I still haven't played ME3, and with everything I've heard about it I'm just not excited about it anymore. I guess I'll pick it up for cheap at some point...
'unless of course all the talent that made those RPGs you listed got fired and replaced with ex infinity ward employees :P' - The Horrors!! Unfortunately that's almost the way it feels right now...
Just the changes between the original Dragon Age and the sequel, and the original ME to the sequel, and now the attention to multiplayer, I don't know what they're doing anymore...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about ME2. Like you I think it was still a good, fun game, it just wasn't nearly as good as the first game! It was dumbed-down, a lot less dialog (every time you tried to talk to one of the main characters you got the same tired reply unlike the first game when you could talk to them over and over with lots of interesting dialog!) and lost nearly all of its RPG elements, luckily it at least kept a good adventure story to keep the game interesting.
I still haven't played ME3, and with everything I've heard about it I'm just not excited about it anymore. I guess I'll pick it up for cheap at some point...
'unless of course all the talent that made those RPGs you listed got fired and replaced with ex infinity ward employees :P' - The Horrors!! Unfortunately that's almost the way it feels right now...
Just the changes between the original Dragon Age and the sequel, and the original ME to the sequel, and now the attention to multiplayer, I don't know what they're doing anymore...
1 up, 0 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 6:36:13 PM
Reply
Would you mind not constantly generalizing about gamers? I'm a gamer, but I'm an artist first. Some of my work is for fun, and some is for profit. I get all the say in the world about the fun stuff I do, but when it comes to making money, at the end of the day my customers get what they paid for.
Some of us do understand the work involved in creating a game, so please quit acting like every one of us is a know-nothing dolt. Retake didn't tell bioware to drop everything and give us a new ending NOW. Scrambling back to work to kick out clarification DLC is more a service to their reputation than it is to the fans. I would wait as much time as was necessary to see a proper ending come to light; it is what the series deserves.
I do not understand how it is unreasonable that developers be held to their statements, so I would appreciate an explanation for your idea that there is no voice of reason tied to Retake. I have seen several articles now, both for and against the ending(s), that were logical and well thought out. Some, such as this one, completely miss the tone of the movement, and resort to name-calling. For someone writing about "whiny children" you sure sound like a whining child.
Are you privy to all that goes on behind closed doors at Bioware? Do the staff members send you letters about how they feel about the story? Tell me this, how many people involved with the game have spoken out for or against the ending? From what I've seen its been the CEO Ray Myzuka and the guy who wrote the ending Casey Hudson who have been in any way vocal about it. There was one alleged post by another writer on the team that was against the endings, but I am inclined to take that with a grain of salt, as the story seems to be that someone hacked his account. Until more people there come out and say they were all for this ending, neither of us have any right to assume what they think or feel.
You have missed the mark in calling us self-righteous. I am not asking for a new ending to satisfy some selfish desire, I think the GAME DESERVES and new ending. I love this series. It is so effing good that not even this foible could stop me from recommending it to everyone I meet.
Why do you continue to insist that everyone involved with Retake is over-privileged? You still haven't explained how getting what you pay for is somehow crazy, but only in this case. Overwhelmingly, people in Retake have said that the rest of the game is fantastic, but that there is a disconnect when the ending comes around.
As far as the Xbox/Ps3 generation expecting more from developers, they expect more because developers promise more. My favorite system of all time continues to be the Snes, though I got started on the Nes around the time the genesis came out. If the same conditions we have now existed then, with the ability for people to form groups and communicate quickly and effectively over long distances, as well as a platform for the digital distribution of games, you can damn well be certain that this would have happened sooner. Back then we didn't ask for things to change or be fixed because it wasn't a possibility. Now that developers can and have fixed issues with games before such as glitches(Elder Scroll IV, V) or issues with endings(Fallout) we know that they have and will exercise that ability.
For someone who has been doing this for so long, I find it completely bizarre that you are so confrontational and angry. Your snide tone is doing a disservice to this site; I hope they aren't paying you to be so rude.
Some of us do understand the work involved in creating a game, so please quit acting like every one of us is a know-nothing dolt. Retake didn't tell bioware to drop everything and give us a new ending NOW. Scrambling back to work to kick out clarification DLC is more a service to their reputation than it is to the fans. I would wait as much time as was necessary to see a proper ending come to light; it is what the series deserves.
I do not understand how it is unreasonable that developers be held to their statements, so I would appreciate an explanation for your idea that there is no voice of reason tied to Retake. I have seen several articles now, both for and against the ending(s), that were logical and well thought out. Some, such as this one, completely miss the tone of the movement, and resort to name-calling. For someone writing about "whiny children" you sure sound like a whining child.
Are you privy to all that goes on behind closed doors at Bioware? Do the staff members send you letters about how they feel about the story? Tell me this, how many people involved with the game have spoken out for or against the ending? From what I've seen its been the CEO Ray Myzuka and the guy who wrote the ending Casey Hudson who have been in any way vocal about it. There was one alleged post by another writer on the team that was against the endings, but I am inclined to take that with a grain of salt, as the story seems to be that someone hacked his account. Until more people there come out and say they were all for this ending, neither of us have any right to assume what they think or feel.
You have missed the mark in calling us self-righteous. I am not asking for a new ending to satisfy some selfish desire, I think the GAME DESERVES and new ending. I love this series. It is so effing good that not even this foible could stop me from recommending it to everyone I meet.
Why do you continue to insist that everyone involved with Retake is over-privileged? You still haven't explained how getting what you pay for is somehow crazy, but only in this case. Overwhelmingly, people in Retake have said that the rest of the game is fantastic, but that there is a disconnect when the ending comes around.
As far as the Xbox/Ps3 generation expecting more from developers, they expect more because developers promise more. My favorite system of all time continues to be the Snes, though I got started on the Nes around the time the genesis came out. If the same conditions we have now existed then, with the ability for people to form groups and communicate quickly and effectively over long distances, as well as a platform for the digital distribution of games, you can damn well be certain that this would have happened sooner. Back then we didn't ask for things to change or be fixed because it wasn't a possibility. Now that developers can and have fixed issues with games before such as glitches(Elder Scroll IV, V) or issues with endings(Fallout) we know that they have and will exercise that ability.
For someone who has been doing this for so long, I find it completely bizarre that you are so confrontational and angry. Your snide tone is doing a disservice to this site; I hope they aren't paying you to be so rude.
2 up, 2 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:00:24 PM
Nobody is being rude. Nobody called you names.
You know nothing of me or this site. You signed up specifically to call me out with your obnoxious self-righteous crap masquerading as nobility and "what we deserve."
You are either going to acknowledge that the vast majority of reactions to this mess has been disgustingly childish (there are dozens upon dozens of headlines to choose from), or you're not going to post again.
The EGOS of you people are completely out of control. Not once have you conceded a single point, even when that point is obvious. I find it amazing that every last one of you not only believe you can do the job of a journalist better, but you can also do the job of a game developer better. You know all because after all, the consumer MUST know all, yes?
You think there's no attitude. Your entire post is an example of the attitude I have alluded to again and again, and it doesn't get more adolescent than your pitiful attack in the last paragraph. For someone who pretends to be so high-and-mighty, I find it downright comical that you'd attack me and a site that has been around for 12 years without knowing ANYTHING about either.
You may notice a great many people are against you and have confronted you with viable questions that you have completely ignored. Why? Because your entire "movement" is completely self-centered. Period.
I conceded from the start that the fans were right, which you have not-so-deftly avoided (because that of course, would make you completely and entirely wrong about my stance on the issue). Hence, make some concessions and DROP the outrageous ego, or don't post. Got it?
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 7:03:25 PM
You know nothing of me or this site. You signed up specifically to call me out with your obnoxious self-righteous crap masquerading as nobility and "what we deserve."
You are either going to acknowledge that the vast majority of reactions to this mess has been disgustingly childish (there are dozens upon dozens of headlines to choose from), or you're not going to post again.
The EGOS of you people are completely out of control. Not once have you conceded a single point, even when that point is obvious. I find it amazing that every last one of you not only believe you can do the job of a journalist better, but you can also do the job of a game developer better. You know all because after all, the consumer MUST know all, yes?
You think there's no attitude. Your entire post is an example of the attitude I have alluded to again and again, and it doesn't get more adolescent than your pitiful attack in the last paragraph. For someone who pretends to be so high-and-mighty, I find it downright comical that you'd attack me and a site that has been around for 12 years without knowing ANYTHING about either.
You may notice a great many people are against you and have confronted you with viable questions that you have completely ignored. Why? Because your entire "movement" is completely self-centered. Period.
I conceded from the start that the fans were right, which you have not-so-deftly avoided (because that of course, would make you completely and entirely wrong about my stance on the issue). Hence, make some concessions and DROP the outrageous ego, or don't post. Got it?
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 7:03:25 PM
2 up, 2 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 7:50:15 PM
Reply
My apologies for missing the post above where someone specifically asked me questions. I'll answer those in a moment.
Never once did I say I could do the job of a journalist better than any specific journalist, though I would be hesitant to label you as one, I have a hard time believing that someone with your tone is considered friendly to the world of gaming.
What vast majority of reactions have been disgustingly childish? I can't even think of one, but if you wouldn't mind, I would like to see which ones you are talking about, and will gladly admit they are disgustingly childish if they are. Are you telling me that you'll block me from the site or from posting? That seems a bit over the top considering I am simply offering an opposing viewpoint to your own, and any attacks you may perceive are simply a return for calling Retake a bunch of whiny children and by extension calling me a whiny child.
Where on earth does my ego come into play when it comes to asking to receive what I was told I would get by Bioware? What point should I concede? The crux of the argument is that Bioware promised one thing and delivered another. There need be no other reason than than to be upset. I didn't offer Bioware a script and say "that's what I want", I am a shite writer, and I wouldn't do that even if I did have writing abilities. They have fantastic writers. All I want is for the promises to be upheld, which were that the choices you make throughout the game to have an impact on the outcome. That's what they said, that's what I believed, and it never came to pass.
I never said I could do your job better, I couldn't, I hate writing; I suggested that YOU could do your job better. Somehow you have convinced yourself that your style of writing is professional because of the length of time you've been doing it. If this is what you believe journalism is, then so be it, but I hope that in time you see how brutish and reactionary it is..
What do I need to know about you before I say that you are needlessly mean to a group who have tried everything they can to avoid being seen as "entitled whiny children" by giving to charity and offering constructive criticism even after being so ruinously let down? Should I have read through more articles by you to get a basis for your style? Are you often so abrasive, or is the Retake movement the straw that broke the camels back?
I read the article, I wouldn't have commented if I didn't, but I see a disconnect between agreeing with the movement and outright bashing them for what they've asked for. Surely you understood what they wanted when you supported them. Now that Bioware has offered them something despite it being nothing like what was asked for, you are against them now? I just want to understand.
WHAT EGO? If anyone is flashing their tail feathers here, it's you! I haven't once spoken about my importance in this situation. I haven't gone on about how incredible and talented I am. My statements about myself were simply factual. I am an artist, and I create art for money. When did I say it was any good? Never. When did I say how long I've been doing it to lend credibility to my statements, Never. The only reason I offered that info was to show that I understand what it means to offer a product produced through creativity, and that it is important to give the customer what they want.
If you want a concession, here's one. It would be nuts for me to EXPECT Bioware to give the game a proper ending, but I don't think it is nuts to WANT that to happen. I haven't painted a request as a demand in this situation and I don't intend to. Are there people who are demanding? Sure. Are there people shouting, You bet. Am I or the majority demanding and shouting? It doesn't look like it to me.
In reply to Comic Shaman:
What I expect from Bioware is that they'll continue to make awesome games with awesome stories. I couldn't, knowing what I know, logically believe that they could, in a short amount of time, create an entirely new ending with all of the things you listed, especially if they were offering it for free.
In terms of consistency for the storyline, the current ending(s) aren't even close. You are right that writing by democratic concensus generally ends up sterile and lifeless. Nobody wants that. At no point would I presume to be a part of the actual creative writing process. Why would that even be necessary if Bioware redid the ending? The problem here isn't just that the ending sucked, but that it was the only ending in a game where Bioware stated your choices could lead to wildly different endings. They have great writers, the rest of the game was a blast and the story moved me to man-tears at a few points. I have complete faith that if the ending(s) were redone, that Bioware has excellent talent on hand to craft the narrative.
The only way a recreation of the endings would be practical is if it were offered as purchasable DLC. I would definitely pay for it, no question. I know that could end up pretty dangerous for the world of gaming, but damn it, I am a huge geek for this series.
Never once did I say I could do the job of a journalist better than any specific journalist, though I would be hesitant to label you as one, I have a hard time believing that someone with your tone is considered friendly to the world of gaming.
What vast majority of reactions have been disgustingly childish? I can't even think of one, but if you wouldn't mind, I would like to see which ones you are talking about, and will gladly admit they are disgustingly childish if they are. Are you telling me that you'll block me from the site or from posting? That seems a bit over the top considering I am simply offering an opposing viewpoint to your own, and any attacks you may perceive are simply a return for calling Retake a bunch of whiny children and by extension calling me a whiny child.
Where on earth does my ego come into play when it comes to asking to receive what I was told I would get by Bioware? What point should I concede? The crux of the argument is that Bioware promised one thing and delivered another. There need be no other reason than than to be upset. I didn't offer Bioware a script and say "that's what I want", I am a shite writer, and I wouldn't do that even if I did have writing abilities. They have fantastic writers. All I want is for the promises to be upheld, which were that the choices you make throughout the game to have an impact on the outcome. That's what they said, that's what I believed, and it never came to pass.
I never said I could do your job better, I couldn't, I hate writing; I suggested that YOU could do your job better. Somehow you have convinced yourself that your style of writing is professional because of the length of time you've been doing it. If this is what you believe journalism is, then so be it, but I hope that in time you see how brutish and reactionary it is..
What do I need to know about you before I say that you are needlessly mean to a group who have tried everything they can to avoid being seen as "entitled whiny children" by giving to charity and offering constructive criticism even after being so ruinously let down? Should I have read through more articles by you to get a basis for your style? Are you often so abrasive, or is the Retake movement the straw that broke the camels back?
I read the article, I wouldn't have commented if I didn't, but I see a disconnect between agreeing with the movement and outright bashing them for what they've asked for. Surely you understood what they wanted when you supported them. Now that Bioware has offered them something despite it being nothing like what was asked for, you are against them now? I just want to understand.
WHAT EGO? If anyone is flashing their tail feathers here, it's you! I haven't once spoken about my importance in this situation. I haven't gone on about how incredible and talented I am. My statements about myself were simply factual. I am an artist, and I create art for money. When did I say it was any good? Never. When did I say how long I've been doing it to lend credibility to my statements, Never. The only reason I offered that info was to show that I understand what it means to offer a product produced through creativity, and that it is important to give the customer what they want.
If you want a concession, here's one. It would be nuts for me to EXPECT Bioware to give the game a proper ending, but I don't think it is nuts to WANT that to happen. I haven't painted a request as a demand in this situation and I don't intend to. Are there people who are demanding? Sure. Are there people shouting, You bet. Am I or the majority demanding and shouting? It doesn't look like it to me.
In reply to Comic Shaman:
What I expect from Bioware is that they'll continue to make awesome games with awesome stories. I couldn't, knowing what I know, logically believe that they could, in a short amount of time, create an entirely new ending with all of the things you listed, especially if they were offering it for free.
In terms of consistency for the storyline, the current ending(s) aren't even close. You are right that writing by democratic concensus generally ends up sterile and lifeless. Nobody wants that. At no point would I presume to be a part of the actual creative writing process. Why would that even be necessary if Bioware redid the ending? The problem here isn't just that the ending sucked, but that it was the only ending in a game where Bioware stated your choices could lead to wildly different endings. They have great writers, the rest of the game was a blast and the story moved me to man-tears at a few points. I have complete faith that if the ending(s) were redone, that Bioware has excellent talent on hand to craft the narrative.
The only way a recreation of the endings would be practical is if it were offered as purchasable DLC. I would definitely pay for it, no question. I know that could end up pretty dangerous for the world of gaming, but damn it, I am a huge geek for this series.
2 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 8:24:00 PM
You can't be serious. Are you honestly going to sit back and say that journalists everywhere were only attacking the fans simply because of a few civil and well thought-out complaints?
This little war was created by the initial reaction to the Mass Effect 3 ending, which is well documented in forums, communities, blogs and websites everywhere. This "Retake" movement is hardly representative of that initial reaction, and you know it.
Why can't you at least acknowledge this? You don't really think I'm annoyed at people offering constructive criticism to a developer, do you? Me, someone who has riled against what Square Enix has been doing to their fans this entire generation? You think journalists who call out these gamers as entitled have no point whatsoever, when it's plain as day that the knee-jerk reaction to this could easily be summarized as, "I hate this crap and BioWare sucks"...?
That's what I mean about not conceding a point. In one breath, you claim I'm generalizing in regards to an entire group of gamers, and in the next, you're trying to tell me that all these complainers are perfectly civil and reasonable people who aren't hostile or ignorant of the game development process in any way. That's the epitome of "generalization," my friend.
I don't really have the time to deal with this anymore. You will find one of the most knowledgeable and polite group of gamers in the PSXE community, provided you step off your soapbox for two seconds and listen to what others have to say. This doesn't involve bludgeoning people over the head with your point; it involves, at the very least, acknowledging that you're attacking a journalist and a site for virtually no reason, especially when that journalist has called the fans RIGHT. And has ONLY gone after the attitude of these fans, which is undeniably embarrassing.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 8:25:23 PM
This little war was created by the initial reaction to the Mass Effect 3 ending, which is well documented in forums, communities, blogs and websites everywhere. This "Retake" movement is hardly representative of that initial reaction, and you know it.
Why can't you at least acknowledge this? You don't really think I'm annoyed at people offering constructive criticism to a developer, do you? Me, someone who has riled against what Square Enix has been doing to their fans this entire generation? You think journalists who call out these gamers as entitled have no point whatsoever, when it's plain as day that the knee-jerk reaction to this could easily be summarized as, "I hate this crap and BioWare sucks"...?
That's what I mean about not conceding a point. In one breath, you claim I'm generalizing in regards to an entire group of gamers, and in the next, you're trying to tell me that all these complainers are perfectly civil and reasonable people who aren't hostile or ignorant of the game development process in any way. That's the epitome of "generalization," my friend.
I don't really have the time to deal with this anymore. You will find one of the most knowledgeable and polite group of gamers in the PSXE community, provided you step off your soapbox for two seconds and listen to what others have to say. This doesn't involve bludgeoning people over the head with your point; it involves, at the very least, acknowledging that you're attacking a journalist and a site for virtually no reason, especially when that journalist has called the fans RIGHT. And has ONLY gone after the attitude of these fans, which is undeniably embarrassing.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 8:25:23 PM
1 up, 1 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:03:34 PM
Reply
Journalists haven't been attacking fans, at least not in the way you seem to be. Journalists who are assigning the "entitled" moniker apparently haven't read a dictionary, given that it's damn right we're entitled to what we paid for. You are avoiding that issue for some reason, but I'll ask again, what is crazy about requesting to get what you were told you would get when you forked over the cash for the game?
The knee jerk reaction has given way to several excellent articles on this subject which outline the problems with the ending and are not brazen and disrespectful. If you've supported them before, when the "knee-jerk" reactions were at their height, why don't you support them now when they've calmed down a bit?
What logic is there in saying,"You were lied to, but now you're getting something, even though it wasn't what was promised, so shut up."?
You're right, I am generalizing just as brazenly as you when I say that the Retake movement is chock full of thoughtful, respectful, and constructive individuals. For that I apologize. It was wrong of me to don a pot costume and proceed to call the kettle black. I'm sorry. That was my knee-jerk reaction to being called a whiny child. I just get really irritated when that gets thrown around because it really only true of a very small group of the people who want a new ending.
I did concede a point, I know it is silly to expect the ending to change, but I maintain that its ok to want it changed, as long as that want exists alongside the knowledge that it may never happen. I accept it. Acceptance hasn't made it any easier to delve back into the series and continue from a different save file.
I'm certain that your readership has some pretty cool people in it, and I bet if I stick around I just might make some friends, who knows. But your presumptuousness and rudeness hasn't painted a particularly inviting picture to me. I'm all for debate, I just think there is a more respectful way to go about it. I also think that you should be wary of telling gamers what they should and shouldn't do in such a condescending tone. But who cares what I think, right?
This is your soapbox, I'm just looking up at you. I haven't bludgeoned anyone. If the point is that you think the ending should be changed but don't like how the gamers are acting about it, then I can get that, but it isn't as clear in your article as you think it is. Should those who've been civil and constructive forego giving thanks to Bioware, or just those who've been jerks?
Yes, I attacked, but it seemed warranted given that I'm being painted with a stroke that doesn't apply to me. It doesn't apply to a lot of us. I don't hate Mass Effect, and Bioware is an awesome and talented developer, but I would like to know what went wrong.
The knee jerk reaction has given way to several excellent articles on this subject which outline the problems with the ending and are not brazen and disrespectful. If you've supported them before, when the "knee-jerk" reactions were at their height, why don't you support them now when they've calmed down a bit?
What logic is there in saying,"You were lied to, but now you're getting something, even though it wasn't what was promised, so shut up."?
You're right, I am generalizing just as brazenly as you when I say that the Retake movement is chock full of thoughtful, respectful, and constructive individuals. For that I apologize. It was wrong of me to don a pot costume and proceed to call the kettle black. I'm sorry. That was my knee-jerk reaction to being called a whiny child. I just get really irritated when that gets thrown around because it really only true of a very small group of the people who want a new ending.
I did concede a point, I know it is silly to expect the ending to change, but I maintain that its ok to want it changed, as long as that want exists alongside the knowledge that it may never happen. I accept it. Acceptance hasn't made it any easier to delve back into the series and continue from a different save file.
I'm certain that your readership has some pretty cool people in it, and I bet if I stick around I just might make some friends, who knows. But your presumptuousness and rudeness hasn't painted a particularly inviting picture to me. I'm all for debate, I just think there is a more respectful way to go about it. I also think that you should be wary of telling gamers what they should and shouldn't do in such a condescending tone. But who cares what I think, right?
This is your soapbox, I'm just looking up at you. I haven't bludgeoned anyone. If the point is that you think the ending should be changed but don't like how the gamers are acting about it, then I can get that, but it isn't as clear in your article as you think it is. Should those who've been civil and constructive forego giving thanks to Bioware, or just those who've been jerks?
Yes, I attacked, but it seemed warranted given that I'm being painted with a stroke that doesn't apply to me. It doesn't apply to a lot of us. I don't hate Mass Effect, and Bioware is an awesome and talented developer, but I would like to know what went wrong.
2 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 9:44:14 PM
There is no condescension. A gamer has every right to tell other gamers when they're EMBARRASSING him. How exactly is it condescending to ask fellow gamers to just behave and be more civil, and NOT continually complain for the sake of complaining?
There's a reason I don't like to tell journalists with whom I used to work in the newspapers what I do now...a very good reason, and it's right here.
You are the only one to be condescending, starting with jumping in here and assuming you know everything about my stance on the issue, without being familiar with me or this site. You obviously missed this as well-
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/10943.html
You can't honestly expect to come in here, insult the person who wrote the article (which you very clearly did; otherwise, I wouldn't have responded the way I did), and expect to be greeted with roses, do you?
This is the problem. It's a failure of communication. You seem to think I'm saying gamers can't complain, when I never said any such thing. In fact, I said just the opposite. Like I said, I've gone over this numerous times, but you apparently just assumed again, rather than reading-
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/10858.html
I have made everything very clear. And yet, all I get in return is attitude from just about anyone who shows up to "debate." It's not a debate when the initial post is so full of outright egotism that it fails to make its point.
There's a reason I don't like to tell journalists with whom I used to work in the newspapers what I do now...a very good reason, and it's right here.
You are the only one to be condescending, starting with jumping in here and assuming you know everything about my stance on the issue, without being familiar with me or this site. You obviously missed this as well-
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/10943.html
You can't honestly expect to come in here, insult the person who wrote the article (which you very clearly did; otherwise, I wouldn't have responded the way I did), and expect to be greeted with roses, do you?
This is the problem. It's a failure of communication. You seem to think I'm saying gamers can't complain, when I never said any such thing. In fact, I said just the opposite. Like I said, I've gone over this numerous times, but you apparently just assumed again, rather than reading-
http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/10858.html
I have made everything very clear. And yet, all I get in return is attitude from just about anyone who shows up to "debate." It's not a debate when the initial post is so full of outright egotism that it fails to make its point.
1 up, 0 down
a harmless pie
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:02:07 PM
Reply
Good gravy just answer the question! You told dissatisfied fans that they need to thank Bioware for bowing to their demands, otherwise they'll be viewed as entitled whiny brats. Bioware has actually completely NOT bowed to demands, and is instead expanding on something that fails to line up with their pre-release promises. Why is it that your tone has changed from support to attack? You keep dodging this and I don't know why.
You were not polite about your directions. The way you stated things shows that you already view the Retake group as whiny children. I never assumed anything, I read what you wrote, and unless what you wrote changes, I stand by what I said. Why do I need to absorb your entire backlog of writing to be able to understand what you're saying here?
I don't think you're saying gamers can't complain, I see that you're telling them they SHOULDN'T complain now that they've gotten what you apparently believe they wanted. This is not what was wanted, end of story. Fine, I'm done with it, I don't care if a new ending comes or not, but the fact remains that what was promised, was not delivered, and then what was asked for was ignored.
You don't get my point? My point is that much of this article, but mostly the final paragraph, transmits the message loud and clear that you already view those you're talking about as whiny children.
I'll sum it up, Bioware told me that they were going to give me a certain thing for my money, then they did not give me that thing. I am upset that I did not get what was promised. That's it. I couldn't make that any less direct. I will continue to say this alongside letting people know how fun the game is despite that.
You were rude in that article. You were rude to me. It's your site, you obviously do what you please and that's fine by me. But to claim you weren't and that I'M the one being condescending, really?
Also, if you aren't entirely through humoring me, in what way have I been egotistical? I'm not sure I understand the word correctly the way you are using it.
You were not polite about your directions. The way you stated things shows that you already view the Retake group as whiny children. I never assumed anything, I read what you wrote, and unless what you wrote changes, I stand by what I said. Why do I need to absorb your entire backlog of writing to be able to understand what you're saying here?
I don't think you're saying gamers can't complain, I see that you're telling them they SHOULDN'T complain now that they've gotten what you apparently believe they wanted. This is not what was wanted, end of story. Fine, I'm done with it, I don't care if a new ending comes or not, but the fact remains that what was promised, was not delivered, and then what was asked for was ignored.
You don't get my point? My point is that much of this article, but mostly the final paragraph, transmits the message loud and clear that you already view those you're talking about as whiny children.
I'll sum it up, Bioware told me that they were going to give me a certain thing for my money, then they did not give me that thing. I am upset that I did not get what was promised. That's it. I couldn't make that any less direct. I will continue to say this alongside letting people know how fun the game is despite that.
You were rude in that article. You were rude to me. It's your site, you obviously do what you please and that's fine by me. But to claim you weren't and that I'M the one being condescending, really?
Also, if you aren't entirely through humoring me, in what way have I been egotistical? I'm not sure I understand the word correctly the way you are using it.
3 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, April 10, 2012 @ 10:28:45 PM
No, I'll sum it up-
I said at the start that nobody was going to be satisfied with whatever BioWare chose to do. It wouldn't matter, because, as stated clearly in the opening line of the article, "You can't please everyone."
I said gamers were obnoxious, self-righteous, ignorant, and insultingly demanding when this entire fiasco first began, which is of course 100% true. I never referred to anything that came of that, such as Retake.
I told everyone that it's a bad idea to continue to complain even after BioWare has responded. They didn't respond the way you wanted? Big damn surprise. You will never be pleased, quite clearly.
I addressed why this issue goes well beyond the simplistic, "Hey, I paid for it so I want to get what I paid for." That was addressed in a previous article. If you don't wish to read it, that's your business.
Lastly, this is entertainment. Anybody who has the time and inclination to form a freakin' MOVEMENT over the ending of a game has far, far too much time on their hands and needs to locate a life.
I'm done with this. ME3 fans will never get an ounce of respect from me. Never thought I'd say that after 30 years of playing games, but wow...this group is a tweak away from being social extremists.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 10:30:27 PM
I said at the start that nobody was going to be satisfied with whatever BioWare chose to do. It wouldn't matter, because, as stated clearly in the opening line of the article, "You can't please everyone."
I said gamers were obnoxious, self-righteous, ignorant, and insultingly demanding when this entire fiasco first began, which is of course 100% true. I never referred to anything that came of that, such as Retake.
I told everyone that it's a bad idea to continue to complain even after BioWare has responded. They didn't respond the way you wanted? Big damn surprise. You will never be pleased, quite clearly.
I addressed why this issue goes well beyond the simplistic, "Hey, I paid for it so I want to get what I paid for." That was addressed in a previous article. If you don't wish to read it, that's your business.
Lastly, this is entertainment. Anybody who has the time and inclination to form a freakin' MOVEMENT over the ending of a game has far, far too much time on their hands and needs to locate a life.
I'm done with this. ME3 fans will never get an ounce of respect from me. Never thought I'd say that after 30 years of playing games, but wow...this group is a tweak away from being social extremists.
Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/10/2012 10:30:27 PM
2 up, 2 down
a harmless pie
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 12:32:48 AM
Reply
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my messages. It's much clearer now what your intentions were. I didn't see the things that various gamers were doing in the early hours of learning about the ending in as negative a light as you, though that is likely because I had almost the same mindset. I spent a little time asking, pleading even, on forums and such, but I never insulted Bioware. I am 100% on your side when it comes to those who had negative things to say about Bioware as a company, but perhaps I came into all of this from a different direction and so my perceptions were colored differently.
I doubt any of them are looking for your respect, I certainly am not. Would you tell them to get a life for spending the time they did playing the game? Would you tell me that? The time I've spent grieving, so to speak, is proportional to the time I spent playing the game. I'm probably not alone in that. There are bigger fish to fry than the ending to a videogame, I'll grant you that.
Anyhow, thanks again for responding, even though it pissed me off, it was a good read.
I doubt any of them are looking for your respect, I certainly am not. Would you tell them to get a life for spending the time they did playing the game? Would you tell me that? The time I've spent grieving, so to speak, is proportional to the time I spent playing the game. I'm probably not alone in that. There are bigger fish to fry than the ending to a videogame, I'll grant you that.
Anyhow, thanks again for responding, even though it pissed me off, it was a good read.
2 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, April 11, 2012 @ 10:24:06 AM
Nobody is blaming you, I don't think. I never did. I didn't particularly like the way you sort of insulted me in some of your posts, but you have to know by now that I'm not entirely against the ME3 fans and never was.
As I said before, this is an issue of communication and little else. There are only a few points I'm trying to make, and certainly none of them says people who don't like something they paid for shouldn't complain. However, all this being said, yes, it's a game. "Movements" created over video games, to me, just means people have way too much time on their hands.
As I said before, this is an issue of communication and little else. There are only a few points I'm trying to make, and certainly none of them says people who don't like something they paid for shouldn't complain. However, all this being said, yes, it's a game. "Movements" created over video games, to me, just means people have way too much time on their hands.
1 up, 0 down
SS4
Thursday, April 12, 2012 @ 9:47:13 PM
Reply
I really like Bioware's stance on this issue and the babies should go back to play CoD 22(or whatevewr is out by then) instead of throwing their little tantrum lol
0 up, 0 down
Jacius Ceed
Tuesday, April 17, 2012 @ 5:18:30 AM
Reply
What of those who have legitimate reasons to cringe and not only how they announced the dlc but the dlc being and extended cut rather than at a minimum a fix to the current ending?
Does that make me a whiner?
I would not allow any product or artwork (whatever you see games to be) see the light of day if I thought is was broken or incomplete, I don't think Bioware saw it as either.
However I would also not ignore legit and civil
criticism (which has been happen on their forums, you can ignore anything past I didn't like it everywhere else it is not civil) pointed out that I messed up somewhere, and example would be forgetting that a main character had lost his sword during the adventure only to have it back at the end etc. etc. etc.
My point with that being that even keeping the current ending the holes in the ending that have been pointed out should be patched so they do not cloud the message that Bioware is trying to communicate with their work. It would be easy but seems like it won't be done.
Quickly I would like to say that wording the announcement the way they did, whether intentional or not I don't care, makes it seem like they consider their customers to be too stupid to have understood what they were going for with the ending. The announcement said a few things including that it would provide "additional clarity" & "deeper insight". (quoted from their FAQ for the dlc)
From I can tell there are quite a few people who get what they were trying to do with the ending, but were taken out of the immersive experience with odd things that stuck out to let it be.
(I have read all your other posts on the whole ME3 situation and have taken them into consideration when I typed this out.)
Does that make me a whiner?
I would not allow any product or artwork (whatever you see games to be) see the light of day if I thought is was broken or incomplete, I don't think Bioware saw it as either.
However I would also not ignore legit and civil
criticism (which has been happen on their forums, you can ignore anything past I didn't like it everywhere else it is not civil) pointed out that I messed up somewhere, and example would be forgetting that a main character had lost his sword during the adventure only to have it back at the end etc. etc. etc.
My point with that being that even keeping the current ending the holes in the ending that have been pointed out should be patched so they do not cloud the message that Bioware is trying to communicate with their work. It would be easy but seems like it won't be done.
Quickly I would like to say that wording the announcement the way they did, whether intentional or not I don't care, makes it seem like they consider their customers to be too stupid to have understood what they were going for with the ending. The announcement said a few things including that it would provide "additional clarity" & "deeper insight". (quoted from their FAQ for the dlc)
From I can tell there are quite a few people who get what they were trying to do with the ending, but were taken out of the immersive experience with odd things that stuck out to let it be.
(I have read all your other posts on the whole ME3 situation and have taken them into consideration when I typed this out.)
1 up, 0 down
frylock25
Reply
Monday, April 09, 2012 @ 10:17:48 PM