Square Enix: How Do You "Overcome" Past Final Fantasies?

In every entertainment medium, there are titles that represent major milestones in the art. Film has The Godfather, Citizen Kane, Gone with the Wind. Rock has The Dark Side of the Moon, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Literature has too many amazing titles to mention.

No one in their right mind would ever try to overcome or surpass these titles. They're amazing in their own right. They set the gold standard at one point, and often still do. That same honor, in my opinion, goes to Final Fantasy 7. It was a major release in gaming history. You don't overcome it, or overshadow it. You embrace it. FF7 is their heritage, and they're ignoring it. That's the problem.

Someone really needs to sit these guys down and explain it to them.

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I think your just getting caught in the moment saying nobody would want to surpass a milestone in something they love or joy. Most of the titles you named and many things around us would not have come into existence if this was the case.

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I personally think that there is a lot of animosity and between SquareEnix and the creator of FF and, especially, FF7, Hironobu Sakaguchi. He made so many great RPGS. They are having a hard time living up to his legacy, you see, and if they make a FF 7 in THEIR vision it would probably fail, like the last few FF's they have made, and they don't want to take that chance. IF they did and failed, you can bet Sakaguchi would have a smile on his face.

But also, I just think that SE doesn't want anything to do with FF7 also because IT BELONGS TO SONY and they want to put this game on multiple consoles.

I miss the old FF's. Well, actually I don't because I still play them. HA! HA!

Now, what I want is SE to make a Dragon Quest in a real world fantasy type settinig and drop the cartoon crap one time and see how it turns out.

I bet it's simplicity in a grim real setting would rule the world.

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That DQ idea is absolutely horrendous. It thrives on the anime setting. A lot of it's charm is the mixture of bad-assery moves mixed with completely silly cartoony moves (like the Puff-Puff)

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Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/17/2012 10:01:07 AM

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I hope they never go anywhere near your DQ idea. DQ8 was a masterpiece and my favourite jrpg ever. If they go back to making a DQ game, they had better use DQ8 as a template.

The graphics and art style is its trademark, why you would even suggest they make it look normal is beyond me. They could just not use the DQ name and do that, but to sully the DQ name would be terrible.

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I've said this before, and I will say it again (now). All current JRPGs from WKC through FFXIII are competing with something that they can never beat. It's simple human nature really.

Look, all those that played and loved FFVII, FFVIII and/or earlier (or later) FF games remember them very fondly. They are universally recognized to be genre defining games that have universal acclaim. Not only that, but we all played them (well most of us did) many years ago, when we were younger, and technology was less advanced and frankly we were less jaded.

So now we look back on those games we love with fond memories. We excuse the low polygon counts because we know the hardware was limited, besides it was ground breaking at the time, right? Not to mention that the pre-rendered CG scenes were, and still are, very good. The games stuck the right balance with a sweeping story line, attractive characters and gameplay that was among the best of it's time.

OK, fine, great. But back to today. Here we are, fed a diet of ever better HD imagery, high fidelity audio, great production values and 2 whole console generations and something like 8 waves of games that have passed since FFVII hit our screens. Any JRPG of today has to not only be good technically today, but it also has to somehow compete with the ghost of those past games. It has to overcome the fond memories, and accepted opinions that those older games are the greatest of all time. It's not enough for a modern JRPG like FFXIII or WKC2 to be compared to itself as a game in it's own right, it's always held up against that fake facade of fond memories and nostalgic feeling that accompany FFVII/FFVIII. In short, they can't win because they are in a struggle with a target that's not even really there, people just think that it is.

I'm *not* saying anything bad against or about FFVII or FFVIII, they were both really great games, and I love them both. However, I do recognize the fondness and nostalgic feeling. I can see how things that we would never excuse today, go unmentioned about those older titles. But that's not the point. The point isn't to somehow denigrate those classics to boost games of today. No, instead I think the point is that we should stop comparing anything to those older FF games, and in a sense, perhaps it's time to let it go, and evaluate the new games on their own merits.

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I disagree, to me it isn't nostalgic to ask them not to strip out all of the gameplay in favor of hands-off autopilot or to strip out branching story lines in favor of a single track single plot.

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I agree with what the idea that we should rate games on their merits today, but I personally think that even by doing that there aren't as many fantastic games in this genre as there used to be. There are still fantastic games, but they aren't as frequent. Valkyria Chronicles comes to mind as my favourite this gen as it was simply fantastic, even compared to games of the past. I also really enjoyed Atelier Totori. I haven't played WKC, so anything I might say that may sound ill informed may stem from that (as I hear it's quite different from other JRPGs today).

Something that ills me about JRPGs today is that they aren't as risky as they used to be. We used to see games that would play around with mechanics more, and we would get to see some innovative takes on the genre. Examples of these kinds of games would be Vagrant Story and Parasite Eve. These days we won't see gameplay like that because developers think it's all too slow for people. They think action has to be action, and people will be displeased if they can't mash their way out of a situation. I like action RPGs (Tales), strategy RPGs (Agarest), and turn based (Atelier) but some innovations from the past are not being taken as much as they used to. Everyone's trying to play safe.

There are of course some exceptions I've seen this gen, notably Valkyria Chronicles and Resonance of Fate (highly innovative) coming to the forefront of my mind, but I think this genre needs some more innovations to make it back to where it used to be in terms of popularity. Take what was good from the past and move to the future (which definitely does not mean Westernizing by any means guys!).

People say they want Square to return to make games like they used to, but the way I interpret that is that they need to make the quality of games like they used to but with new features and innovations. They can't just pump out more of the same, but they need to get in a mindset that exploring other possibilities while still retaining what made their games good is essential.

You're right in that nostalgia has blinded some people into thinking games can't be as good as they were, but I can still feel amazement if a game is done right. Has Square been doing it right? Not yet, but I haven't lost faith. I did enjoy FFXIII-2. What people forget is that it had potential. It oozed potential. It just wasn't executed as well as it could have been. Now if only they can get off their asses and release something...

All in all I'm still enjoying my JRPG life today, but not like I used to. It's not because I have my nostalgia blinders on either. It's because I'm not seeing as many JRPGs that are as good as the past.

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Hey Zen you know what's insane? I'm playing Tales of Graces F and even though it has an action battle system they still managed to get a lot of strategy in there. It feels a lot closer to the beloved turn based than whatever the devil is going on with the FFXIII and XIII-2 battle system. That just shouldn't be the case.

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World: I just ordered my copy a few days ago and I'm really excited for it! I've only heard good things about it from JRPG lovers. Glad they included some strategy elements. I hate being treated like a retard like in some games ;P

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You should be very pleased. Sure the graphics aren't fancy but it has every single other thing a JRPG is supposed to have. You might get away with some button mashing at the beginning when you start out as a kid, but later you have to adapt and be smart with your moves. Plus you can actually stop the battle to make some decisions!

My only real issue was Asbel's default Elvis outfit, lol.

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Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 5/17/2012 12:36:39 AM

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To me, Valkyria Chronicles is actually the exception that proves the rule. That game is both innovative, and at the same time it resides absolutely in the comfort zone of old skool JRPG fans. It's right up their alley, even if the method of story telling and progression is completely mission based, the game itself still inhabits the JRPG zone very nicely. It uses enough of the conventions of the genre to harken back to the classic games while at the same time uses a new approach to the graphics and the mechanics of combat that remain turn based, but are still 1st/3rd person and action based.

Zen I absolutely agree that games like the Atelier series, Valkyria, Disgea, Tales, and Ar Tonelico retain much of the old skool feel, whether it be turn based combat, art style, skill system, character/party development, story telling, or whatever. WKC is in my opinion vastly *under* rated - although it's definitely possible that I may be biased with regard to WKC because I absolutely love the game.

Funnily enough with WKC the story only takes about 50-100 hours of my total play time, the other 1100 hours or so are multi-player co-op questing. That should tell you that the actual mechanics of the combat, synthesis, and skill system are more than good enough for an old skool JRPG fan. I can assure you I've not spent half that amount of time playing and replaying FFVIII. Of course everyone knows I won't p[lay past the death of Aeris in FFVII so I can't exactly compare with that one.

However the central point I make is this;

Even now we are discussing whether the specter of classics of the JRPG genre must be overcome. 15 years after FFVII and 13 years after FFVIII we are still referring back to these games and implicitly comparing present games against them. In a purely objective and technical comparison of the games, they would not stand up well, graphically and in just about every technical manner they are inferior to present games.

The combat and skill systems are on par with or slightly better than the best of today. Story and character is a matter of taste, but I think we can all agree that both FFVII and FFVIII had very good characters and story, and created an emotional attachment (at least it did for me). Valkyria Chronicles pulled off that trick this generation, Xenosaga grabbed me in the PS2 generation like no other. Even WKC2 manages to do it with the Kara character who we lose at the end of WKC1.

The point I am making is that when we compare, and evaluate current games, against the supposed gold standards, how are we to compare them? It's not really possible to compare them technically. In terms of depth of play, I can easily make a case for games like Valkyria Chronicles and White Knight Chronicles that they have similar depth of play. But the point really is, what exactly are you comparing the contemporary games to. Is it really an objective comparison? Or is it a subjective one colored by years of fond memories and in many cases many years since the original games wee even played. It's like remembering the old TV shows from our younger years fondly. We compare the remakes and similar genre shows of today and say they are not a patch on the old shows.

The telling moment comes if any of the smaller cable/satellite networks re-runs the original show. Try comparing Quincy MD to any of the modern crime pathology shows, or even against something like NCIS. Compare the Streets of San Francisco against one of the various CSIs. People who watched those original shows will maintain their superiority - regardless of the truth of the situation.

I often hear people harken back to 'classic' sitcoms like All In the Family as if they're somehow leagues better than anything on today. Except I remember All in the Family from the original runs. Archie Bunker was a foul mouthed, small minded, bigot. The show is objectionable in many ways, especially with the way society has developed and improved since that time. Yet people routinely compare sit-coms of today against it as if it were somehow ethereal and inherently better. It's the same thing there, fond nostalgia that really would not stand up to objective analysis.

Back to SE having to overcome their past. They see it that way themselves, even if they never come right out and say so. The millions they spend polishing their FFXIII game and all the CGI work show this, their constant re-use of classic FFVII and FFVIII characters and archetypes in other games shows this. The thing is, I don't think we really want or need them to somehow overcome the ghost of the past. I think we simply want them to stop changing things for the sake of change or to somehow appeal to twitch gamers. I think we simply want them to make the best damn JRPG adventures that they can, and relax about overcoming the intangible ghost of the past. Of course, I think that the gaming industry as represented by the media and gamers themselves need to similarly stop trying to force current games into a false comparison against those ghosts of the past too.

Oh, sorry, I wrote an essay again...

:)

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Last edited by Highlander on 5/17/2012 10:13:20 AM

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I agree with World. Loving Tales of Graces. I played a lot of Tales games back in the day, and it does an excellent job of maintaining it's core gameplay through the years (It's very similar) while adding unique features to each title.

Graphics definitely aren't really PS3 worthy, (it is a Wii port afterall), some of the voice acting isn't very good (most is alright, though), and yeah, Asbels outfit, I figure, should be dirty by now, but it's a solid story driven title.

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I agree with a lot of your points Highlander. Square is losing their identity by trying too hard to cater to a market that doesn't really want them. They need to make quality games that they think are quality for the JRPG market (the people that got them where they are today) and not for the CoD market. People don't buy a Final Fantasy product for that. They expect quality ideas (new or old) directly from that franchise with Square not trying to mimic this twitchy style. It's like they're deciding not to learn and build upon their past, but to forget it entirely and are looking outwards for help instead of inwards. I hope this changes in the near future, but from the headlines we've been seeing, I'm not so entirely sure. I can still hope though right?

Anyways, as for our games of the past discussion:

Games of the past won't live up to the standards of today in terms of graphical and technical accomplishment, that's for sure, but what they can live up to are things like atmosphere, story, setting and gameplay (to an extent). However, looking outside those limited words, we can look at just plain old cool ideas that some of the games used to have. Those are the things I am fond of. Whether those cool ideas be in boss fights (or how we go about fighting them) or the mechanics in general, we can compare how innovative the overall package is based on these cool ideas, and how it all came together to deliver an amazing experience.

But like you said, there are some things we can't compare to games of the past, like technical and graphical elements. The thing is, strip away these incomparable things, and look at what you are able to compare, and then you can put them more easily side by side. It's not going to be an entirely objective analysis, but it helps to see the state of the genre from past to present. It is the same genre, so we should be able to at least compare some things.

As for Vakyria Chronicles, even though it still retained a very Japanese style, the gameplay was very risky. Considering at that time not many people had PS3s, it was quite a risky venture. I always thought because of its success, PS3 owners were in for a treat when it came to JRPGs this gen (which we have seen some really great ones, mind you, just not like the glory PS1 and 2 days).

Basically there should be some things we can compare between these games because they are from the same genre after all. We do have to be careful though, as you're right, nostalgia can blind and there is a definite gap in technology. However, there are some things that we can't really put into a category that should be compared as well, like the cool ideas and implementations of mechanics, bosses, minigames, etc.

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I think he just meant that each FF is supposed to be better than the last at doing what it does. The goal of FF has never changed in all these years, just the way devs have gone about achieving it. While Materia vs Junction vs Sphere Grid etc may all have adherents most would say that each of those (and other RPG elements that used to be there) fit best or even better into their world than did the last system, be it advancement or battle or whatever.

That would be my definition, the one by which SE has failed hard this generation for reasons unknown. I can only suspect it has to do with the current trends and a complete misunderstanding of an audience whose gaming tastes don't change with the time but instead grow with the times.

Don't change, grow in all respects and FFVII should be easily eclipsed.

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All FF fans want is a game like the old PS1 FF's but in HD.

- Full party control in battle

- Only the first 10% of the game is to be linear, whereas the rest of the game has an open world or world map with towns and cities.

- A deep and engaging battle system that has strategy and no "auto-attack" button

- Memorable characters and a story with some connection to reality. FF VII started out as a Greens "save the world from pollution" kinda game with destroying Mako reactors, but evolved into something so much bigger with Sephiroth and Aeries. I'm fine with something similar in future iterations.


What is so hard about that?!?!? 3 years with a full team, and S-E can definitely pull it off.

AND STOP announcing new titles before finishing other titles!!!

Listen to your fans!!! They're the ones buying what you make!!! Turn your back on them and you are turning your back on loyal money. Here is what they want most in unofficial order...

1. Final Fantasy Vs XIII before mid 2013!!

2. Kingdom Hearts 3!!

3. Final Fantasy VII HD or remake!!

4. Final Fantasy Tactics sequel for Vita and/or 3DS

5. Parasite Eve 3

6. Mana and Chrono series sequel

7. Dragon Quest XI on PS3

8. A new IP turn-based RPG


Sadly, we're lucky if S-E decide to even attempt ONE of those options. :(

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You forgot an ff8 hd or remake

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You also needed a real Front Mission in there. Though Front Mission :Evolved was an ok game in its own right they spit on the fans who enjoyed the RTS aspect of the previous games.

And I personally would want the FF Tactics sequal to be on PS3 not handhelds or both would also be ok in my eyes. I don't like playing on handhelds and have been getting more and more upset when I see good games going strictly handheld, the SMT/Persona series I am looking at you.

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Just give me the same great gameplay from the 90's and 2000's with updated graphics. I'm tired of SE "innovating" to the point of alienating its fan base and making crappy games. I'll take an older model game that's great over a new style that sucks.

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I didn't get into any serious gaming until I was about 23, which was only 6 years ago. First time I played FF7 was about 5 years ago.

It's not nostalgia for me, I simply like the format. I like strategy, thinking out my attacks, picking and choosing who to take into battle and who to leave behind, how to build them, how to use them.

Not everyone desires a non-stop fast paced explosion of color, lights, dancing, jumping, bouncing about characters.

I just want a great story, with great side stories, with exploration, mini games, characters.

Most of all, I want my "old school" ATB dang it.

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Based on my definition of the situation, not the word... New Final Fantasy games need to overcome the stigma of past franchises. As customers they would like us to stop (imo) comparing the new to the old, expecting to get more of the same (same being what we know). They know the franchise has a big following, but think about it. Giving gamer's what they want does make money, but where does the designer's freedom go? Where does the company's wish to explore new IPs go? Final Fantasy isn't a fanservice franchise, and at the same time the series' glory days ended somewhere in the PS2 era. I think Square wants us to realize that that isn't coming back, except PSN downloads of the originals, and maybe even the remastered X (whenever that comes out).

The new ones may be bad FFs, but by no means are they bad games. Gamers just have too high expectations nowadays, but that's just how it is. Square-Enix's statements seem more to be a giant "let go of the past" kinda thing.

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Overcome??
I spent three months! playing FFVII

What Final Fantasy has done that as far as gameplay value??

There was so much to do and explore in FFVII now compare that gem to the pathetic 40 hours tops of FFXIII.

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I'm only a 1/3rd of the way through FFXIII but for me it is a struggle to even care. Nice graphics sure.. but we played games that didn't require all the pomp (NES,Genesis,SNES) and I still had more fun than FFXII or XIII.

A much needed improvement would be ditching the very, very linear aspects. I don't care if less like a movie I want the free reign to explore.
I want the option to stumble into any area of the map (thats always been a fun thing for me) to explore and then before you know it -your locked into a battle with an angry fireball who is at level 60 and you've well just started the game.

The other much needed improvement should be:

Let me carry as much items/equipment as possible! If I find a Reflect ring, why should that take an entire item slot away from me?
Thats frustratingly stupid. My character can wear the ring on his/her finger and not take up a precious item slot.
Also go back to a psuedo Materia system. I like the ability to combine and alter my items endlessly to discover new abilities.

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Last edited by Amnesiac on 5/17/2012 7:47:50 AM

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Overcome the past? It was the past that got them where they are today. FF7, FF8 and even FF10 were games where I dont mind investing months of my time into playing. SE keep preaching that fans need to overcome the nostaglic of pass final fantasy game but they are re-releasing FF10 HD? FF7 came out in 1997, kids who played that game are now adults and have children of their own. but many of these new generation have no idea how Final fantasy games change the genre and every jRPG game that are made today are still and will always be living in the shadows of past FF games.

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Final Fantasy 6 RM/HD would be nice as well...
and I wonder why they never make a Dragon Quest with real life characters for once? and please bring it to the PS3. why is it always on the wii and 3ds ugh =(

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DQ draws a huge amount from it's art style. For instance, they always have bunny girls, warrior guys with masks, swords-women in pink, and their old men and old women always look the same (just better graphics over time).

On top of that, the spells are traditional mixed with character unique attacks that could be either awesome or comical. They are meant to have good story lines that are mostly light-hearted and fun.

DQ would have to depart from quite a bit in pursuit of photo-realism. I think it's part of the reason they've stuck to wii and DS lately. They aren't willing to stop doing what makes them successful (the art-style is a huge selling point in their largest market of Japan and a staple of the series)... but they also think it wouldn't be as successful on a major high def console like PS3 or XBOX.

Either way, photo-realism is definitely not the right approach for that series. And I've played them -ALL- up to DQ8. (Including the Dragon Warrior titles, which is the same thing) Anything not translated to English I've played on ROMS and emulators that were translated by fans. Which isn't usually very good translation... but translated none-the-less!

One of my faves of all time. (DQ8 is my all time favorite game)


As for FFVI, I'd like to see them improve the dialogue a bit as well, but yeah... I'd love an HD version of that, too. lol Terrific cast.

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Last edited by Underdog15 on 5/17/2012 1:56:39 PM

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regarding artstyle and HD. Gust seems to be perfectly happy with it's clearly Anime styles Atelier Series, and Let's not forget Neptunia which also beings a decidedly anime flare to an HD game. There's no reason what so ever that DQ could not e made in HD without losing it's singular style and flare. HD does not equal phote-realism, it simply means more detail, and clearer pictures. Well rendered anime style graphics would/do look awesome in HD.

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I was more addressing his suggestion that DQ start using "real life" characters.

AND YOU NEED TO GO PLAY DQ8 ALREADY!!

:p

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I want to put a burning lunch bag of sh*t on SE's front porch, ring the bell and run away. I am so DONE with these clowns.

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"That past is not dead, it isn't even past."

-William Faulkner

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i played DQ8 on the ps2. great series btw. i also play the nes version as well... but they can try make something similar to the breath of fire anime cell like? iono just a suggestion... but would really wish they would put them at least on the ps3.

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Dragon Warrior 7 was on PS1, if you missed it.

Graphics are definitely not even really PS1 caliber, but the adventure is the adventure of a lifetime! Really long, too! If you ever start going back to PS1 games, and you liked the franchise in general, I would definitely recommend it.

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thanks for the recommendation. hopefully they release it on the PSN so i can dl it. I just d/l FF6 off the PSN playing it last night... brings back so much memories =)

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Square Enix has nothing to remember. They are not the team that brought forth the classic Final Fantasy games. That was Squaresoft and I believe that there was a posting earlier this year that reminded us that Squaresoft is gone.

Wada has bastardized the great games from Squaresoft while leaving the Enix franchises alone, for the most part. Why haven't they taken the Dragonquest franchise in a new direction?

I have my original FFVII disks and I have the DDL version on my PS3 hard-drive. I have the original FFVIII, IX and X as well. Wada can sit on it, as far as I'm concerned.

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"Why haven't they taken the Dragonquest franchise in a new direction?"

yea wtf they do that for anways. leave out DQ series and are always messing up the Final Fantasy Series..

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We all tend to forget that game developers are artists.There is nothing more frustrating for an artist than being constantly judged by their work in past.May be the guys at square enix want to create something new.Maybe they don't like the idea of doing the thing that they have already done all over again.Maybe recreating Final fantasy 7 is not fulfilling enough for them.I know that this is not that we want.But it is not always about us.

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