Will The PS1 Always Be The Undisputed King Of RPGs?

BTNwarrior
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 9:49:09 PM
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For JRPGs most definitely, but for my favorite collection of rpgs I have to say Windows 95 was the best platform. If only for all the Interplay and Black Isle Studios games

3 up, 6 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 9:57:44 PM

I'm sorry, but as great as those games were, they were all basically D&D/Forgotten Realms games that played very, very similarly. I played the hell out of them with friends but there was nowhere near the gameplay/artistic diversity found in JRPGs.

I frequently made comparisons in those days. ;)

13 up, 3 down

xenris
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 8:31:43 AM

Have to agree with Ben. While I actually played a ton of both the PC and PSX RPGs, I would say the fondest memories came from the PSX. The sheer variety of gameplay in the different RPGs on the PSX was amazing. Dragon Valor for some weird reason was one of my favourites, probably because I was obsessed with dragons as a lad(who am I kidding I still am but hush). But as Ben said in the article there were so many different types, Star Ocean 2 was probably one of my favourite PSX RPGs and it played way different than most of the other JRPGs game on the console.

Mind you lump summing all the CRPGs on the PC would be an injustice to those games as they were different in several ways. However they did usually follow the DnD formula. The most unique CRPGs I would say were Planescape torment, and Arcanum:of steamworks and magicka obscura. Other than that, most of the western PC rpgs did feel similar.

2 up, 2 down

VampDeLeon
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:53:33 PM

A little confused Ben on the whole "they were all basically D&D/Forgotten Realms games", if that's the case that would mean that they were indeed RPGs if D&D is already known as an RPG.

With JRPGs though, the size and quality couldn't have been to this magnitude without the NES and SNES's help, so most definitely it's either the PS1 and PS2 that holds the title of being the King.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 5:39:28 PM

I didn't say they weren't RPGs. I said they were all basically the same RPG.

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Killa Tequilla
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 9:57:29 PM
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I couldnt answer that question... I didnt play any rpgs during my psone days.

But i do believe however that gameboy advanced, gameboy sp, nintendo ds and nintendo 3ds have the best rpgs! Pokemon. I used to play it when i was a little kid. Now its all ps3 and very rarely some xbox.

2 up, 6 down

richfiles
Thursday, June 21, 2012 @ 2:56:09 PM

I'm proud to say I have most of the major systems, though I will admit to getting into PS1 late in the game. I bought a lot of RPGs for it... and you know what? half of them were rereleases or sequels to SNES era games.

SNES will now and forever be my RPG king. I can honestly say that I loved the SNES 10 times more than my PS1!

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bebestorm
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 10:01:16 PM
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Yes PS1 wins hands down! PS3 doesn't have a killer jrpg yet and that's saddens me.

8 up, 2 down

JackDillinger89
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 11:28:15 PM

Yes we do silly, Demons souls its a ps3 exclusive and a jrpg.

4 up, 2 down

ZenChichiri
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:34:31 AM

The thing about Demon's Souls is it's an RPG and it's from Japan but it's not a JRPG. It's modeled after WRPGs, and therefore doesn't really fit the bill.

There is a game for the DS called Black Sigil that is a JRPG, but is made in the West. I wouldn't dare call it a WRPG because it follows JRPG standards.

4 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:14:27 AM

I think Demon's and Dark souls aren't JRPGs as we understand them.

2 up, 1 down

bebestorm
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 9:40:06 AM

@Zen&World

ITA! Both games are good even though their not jrpgs.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:43:52 AM

White Knight Chronicles is pretty damn good, especially online. Don't believe the negativity in certain reviews and gamer circles, the game is very much a hidden gem.

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Miggy
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 7:25:07 PM

I agree with Highlander. I loved White Knight Chronicles most likely because it was a gift for my birthday. I really enjoyed the gameplay. I never got to play it online but it was still fun to me offline.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 10:02:57 PM
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Unfortunately Final Fantasy VII kind of ruined me for some of the games that were still sprite-based in the PS1 gen but I'd kill for a taste of all those wonderful varied worlds once again. Tales of Graces F was a real breath of fresh air this generation. Star Ocean 4 was nothing to sneeze at either but of course both of those still had mostly action mechanics so it isn't all the same.

I don't think a rebirth of the JRPG is out of the question but I doubt we will ever see so many good titles in a single generation again.

Personally I can't wait for FFX HD.

7 up, 0 down

ZettaiSeigi
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 11:46:43 PM

Very disappointed that S-E did not make any announcement about FFX HD last E3. But I wasn't too surprised. I mean, the game I'm most looking forward to from them is borderline a vaporware. *cough* FF Versus XIII *cough*

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:15:16 AM

Hopefully they are busy resyncing the lips and we will hear something at TGS.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:45:59 AM

White Knight blows Star Ocean 4 out of the water. SO4 was good, WKC2 is better. Personally though I think that for pure old school JRPG the Atelier series might actually be the best pure JRPG of the generation. Of course it's hardcore item synthesis as well, but it retains everything people loved about the older JRPGs including truly turn based combat.

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DeusExMachina
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:10:08 AM

@World There's always the indie game industry World, theyve given us most of the oldschool goodness this gen so whille the big companies concentrate on maintream actiony games, the indies can build up capital and start giving us better niche offerings.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:31:32 AM

@Deus, I agree it does offer up a genre on a silver platter to indie game makers. Personally though I have yet to see anyone deliver big things (and I don't mean production values). It baffles me that a small dev can't make something as good as Suikoden II on a tiny budget these days.

@Highlander, White Knight is a sweet series but (Mind you I'm not down with WKC2) with the first game I enjoyed it but felt the story in Star Ocean 4 was more classic and better told. My opinion though.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:53:44 PM

My problem with SO4 was mainly having to replay after having an HDD issue and then the long hard slog to the end which seemed really chore-like and annoying. Of course the grind in WKC2 could be said to be worse, but at least it's done online with friends instead of solo with the game...

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:54:34 PM

*that should say "done" with WKC2.

When I played SO4 I couldn't help but compare it to SO3, which had the longest, most grueling, most painful slog to the end I have ever experienced so by comparison it wasn't too bad. I didn't have any HDD issues thankfully. It is a mixed bag but I'm a sucker for JRPG-standard character types and stories. WKC1 felt a tad light on those to me.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 6/18/2012 1:57:18 PM

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shadowscorpio
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 4:35:26 PM

@ World

I can agree that Tales of Graces F is a breath of fresh air. I'm quite hooked on it right now. A very story and character driven game.

I was actually playing WKC1 before ToGF and I will say that most of value come with playing online. My only distain with the game is the massive amount of time it takes level up your Guild Rank and other aspects of your character. Just seems unreasonably long.

Haven't dived too much into WKC2 yet but I'm hoping its an improvement when it comes to the grind.

Last edited by shadowscorpio on 6/18/2012 4:36:04 PM

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firesoul453
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 10:55:14 PM
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Never really got into JRPGs, and although I've had a ps1 my console back in the day was the N64.

Any must play ps1 games I should most definitely get?

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MrAnonymity
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:11:06 AM

If you can manage it, Suikoden and Suikoden II are a must. Of course... the cheapest USED copy of II that I have found is currently $40... but that is naturally subject to change due to the auction-like nature of eBay.

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BikerSaint
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 10:55:21 PM
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I'm not into RPG's, but even so as a collector I can look into all my Playstation collections & see that the PS1 is the undisputed champ of them.

BTW, don't forget the the PSP either, which still has numerous RPG's coming out on it(but for Japan only).

Last edited by BikerSaint on 6/17/2012 10:56:17 PM

2 up, 2 down

Geophphreigh
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 11:10:33 PM
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I have to disagree with something in the last paragraph..."story driven RPGs just aren't popular..." it may seem that way, but they never even got a chance this generation. It's up to the larger developer to make a good game which would increase the sales of the smaller studios because people would be interested in that type of game. I place the blame solely on square enix. They are the ones who can put out a big game with a huge following for the newer generation, but what they did was release games so aweful that no one cares to see where RPGs are going because they think the genre sucks. It's declined ever since ff9. If square enix went back to the old format for RPGs and realize no one wanted to change, at least in the way it has, then we would still see a lot of RPGs being released.

4 up, 1 down

DeusExMachina
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:18:55 AM

Yup petty much. Although dont you dare forget FFX (arguably the best FF or atleast in the top 3), as well as the KH series. Plus Crisis Core wasn't too bad either.

But I do get what youre saying nothing earth shattering AFTER KH2.

1 up, 0 down

Amnesiac
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 11:10:59 PM
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I feel Ps1 will always be the highest water mark for RPGs. In those days any home console game developer would have been accustomed to working with SNES or Genesis capabilities.
The original playstation encouraged so much potential its no wonder most of us look back on those days so fondly.
For me most of the Ps1 library caters to every interest I have as a gamer, I can't say the same about any other system since then.

Last edited by Amnesiac on 6/17/2012 11:27:23 PM

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ZettaiSeigi
Sunday, June 17, 2012 @ 11:45:03 PM
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I ought to be ashamed that I never had a PS1 and did not get to play those classic RPGs. That said, I have a definite appreciation for them as I loved the JRPGs that I got to play when I bought a PS2 and a Dreamcast.

To make amends for that, I will be buying a few JRPGs as soon as PS1 support is available to the Vita. Final Fantasy Tactics and FF VII easily at the top of my list. And yep, I'm sure to buy Persona 4 Golden the very first day it comes out for the Vita as well!

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BikerSaint
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:18:32 AM
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BTW, if you still own a PSP, Atlus's SRPG, "Gungnir" is now out & available.

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ZenChichiri
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:35:24 AM

I hear it's really good too. Gonna pick it up soon!

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ZenChichiri
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:39:51 AM
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I hate it how the industry sways with the trends. It's like things can't co-exist peacefully because developers are all trying to grab a hold of the same thing. When one thing is popular everyone tries to make that same thing to cater to the masses. This doesn't always happen (ie Quantic Dream), but some Japanese developers just refuse to embrace what made them so popular in the past.

If you jump all over the trends with no respect to what your competitive advantage is, then you lose your identity. Let's hope JRPGs haven't lost their identity for good.

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shadowscorpio
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 5:12:53 PM

Well said.

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Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:48:59 AM
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The king of *Japanese* rpgs we mean here, don't we? There wasn't many rpgs released for the ps1 that wasn't Japanese and very typically Japanese too, as far as I understand? (I didn't pay much attention to the console world before the ps3 though, so please, educate me if I am wrong).

Personally, if I had to pick a generation or platform, I gotta say I am pretty happy with the state of affairs today. There are several titles over the years I could point at, saying "man THAT was a great title" (KOTOR, Bloodlines...) but with the rose tinted glasses aside I doubt I'd want to go back to those days, all taken into consideration.

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 12:53:30 AM

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Ludicrous_Liam
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 5:17:39 AM

Agreed. There is so much quality around today, I think even moreso than previous generations. However, like you, I only really started gaming with the PS3 so perhaps a little bit of bias there.

...Even still, games like LBP, Uncharted, Infamous. Strip away the pretty graphics and some of the performance-sapping code to meet the PS2/PS1's limit, and I don't think there was this much quality now in those generations. Maybe it's bigger budgets, l don't know, but there's definately more quality around - and creativity to.

3 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 6:30:52 AM

Even if we limit the scope to RPGs I think that had a RPG that we today consider to be just "ok", like Amalur, been released for the PS2 instead I believe it would have been considered earth shattering both in scale, ambition, gameplay and mechanics.

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 6:36:05 AM

2 up, 0 down

Ludicrous_Liam
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 7:53:31 AM

Oh yeah, we're talking about RPGs aren't we?

*Thinks about how Uncharted might be classed as an RPG* xD

I guess with more progressive systems, the standards are raised higher and higher (in terms of overall quality, aswell as things strictly limited to technological advancements), aswell as expectations. For an example, look at Beyond - people are literally expecting QuanticDream to create a new genre and still make a masterpiece, even though it's a first of it's kind. So with higher standards and expectations, an 'okay' game from the now automatically converts into earth shattering for any generation before, as standards and expectations were much less.

Despite what many might think, this is probably the best possible time to be a gamer. Two or more generations from now we'll be saying how this was the 'Golden generation' for games, I'd bet.

Last edited by Ludicrous_Liam on 6/18/2012 7:59:26 AM

2 up, 2 down

Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 9:22:03 AM

I fully agree that this is the best time so far to be a gamer.

I do however not think we've reached any peaks neither in gameplay, story telling, mechanics, visuals or creativity. With new hardware, new capacities and more experience comes new possibilities. It will always be like that, plus in the larger scheme of things computer games are still a medium in an early age.

(and lol@Uncharted ;) )

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 9:22:28 AM

3 up, 0 down

FM23
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 9:33:57 AM

Beamboom....you're always on point. RPG's never clicked with me durimg the PS1 era, but I was rral young during that period. The PS2 caught on with me when GTA, NFS, and MGS were on top along with MoH, etc, but even then I was only hooked to GTA. I never played an RPG until the PS3 and the first game was Fallout 3 which blew me the f*ck away. RPG's fiends will say it isn't a rpg, but Fallout and Skyrim are the shit. Oblivion was kind of a building block but still good too. Mass Effect is another that blew me away. When you step outside of wrpg's, we got GTA, AC, CoD, BF, most Ps3 exclusives including Dark Souls, etc and I can say I have played more games in my adult yrs then my youth even though more time was dedicated to the few games I played when I was younger. Either way, this gen is where its at for people who didn't really click with the ps1 and early ps2 era as far as genre and themes went. So many choices.

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FM23
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 9:36:47 AM

@Ludicrious Liam.....I agree with you too. Even though we are speaking off of preference, I wholeheartedly agree with your reflection of this generation.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 9:41:23 AM

Let's just say if you didn't play them then, you have no idea what the RPG fans are talking about now.

No, Beamboom, I wouldn't have considered Amalur "earth-shattering." You forget that we still had Everquest and MMOs like that, and as far as I'm concerned, stuff like Skyrim isn't much different. Big world, basically no story to speak of (or at least, none to care about or barely notice), and you just wander around basically doing what you want. I know you find it hard to believe, but a lot of us didn't WANT that. If we had, we would've played Everquest. We wanted a STORY to follow and CHARACTERS to care about, which is what those RPGs did best. I have difficulty finding any RPG today that does that for me.

The bottom line is that those RPGs offered a style of gameplay that simply doesn't exist anymore, unless it's in the downloadable world.

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Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:16:04 AM

By all means, I do not know those titles back then at all, that much is true.

But if we talk about story, let's then talk about current gen RPGs with a story focus. I'd say both the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games have a clear, strong focus on story, don't you agree? And it's all dependent on how much you click with those stories of course, but are the games from the PS1 era really stronger than that in regards to characters to care for or story to follow?

I mean, sure, I didn't play *those* titles back then, but I did play games. I do have an idea on how games in general were in those days compared to now. It really did require you to "fill in the gaps" with your imagination. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but saying that those tiny little sprites and text based conversations really had a stronger impact on gamers than what the current gen games offer... Well, I don't really see how that can be the case, comparatively speaking.

I remember I were blown away by the racing games on the Amiga, I almost got car sick by watching. Today, all I see are some colored fields and growing sprites as trees.

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 10:23:02 AM

2 up, 0 down

Underdog15
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:17:47 AM

You know, I finished up Tactics Ogre last month, and I just got onto the Ragnarok with Rinoa in FFVIII...

People who played FFVIII will know what I'm talking about. After Adel is freed and the Lunar Cry happens... remember when Rinoa is just drifting in space close to death? It really struck me this time how much artistry in the story telling was done in the absence of voice acting and high definition facial expressions. Watching Rinoa drift, mashing buttons that don't make a lick of difference... literally being forced to helplessly watch her float away after being able to beat any boss up to that point. What an incredibly helpless feeling!

And the artistry when Ellone junctions Squall to Rinoa in the near past... how she sees his ring float up in that 10 second cutscene symbolizing the fact that he is right there with her, and she manages to initiate the reserve life support because Squall is able to reach his heart out to her.

Then going out into space, and seeing the counter count down from 1:15 as you try to get in position to catch her. Honestly, the outright HOPE that you feel in the midst of helplessness was incredible for a game of that time!! I have played some great stories since then, but even now as I played it the other day, I realized how it made me feel NOW even though I'm used to better technology. I'm not even sure devs TRY to reach us on that level anymore. At least not with that much effort, patience, and thought.

I -know- anyone who knows what I'm talking about will agree 100%. And it echos what Ben said... if you never played those games, you REALLY don't understand what it is people like us are talking about. That kind of story just can't be done if you get to mold the story yourself. It just can't. And it never has, either. (And yeah, I've played some Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Definitely good, but not the same as what I'm playing through right now in FF8)

EDIT: I should add that up to that point, you really fall for Rinoa. Even FFVIII's creator said he'd fallen in love with Rinoa. Every fibre of your being wants to keep her close, safe, and secure. There is many hours of story up to that point that develop her character. So that adds to the emotion, as well.

And anyone who has played it knows what happens after the Ragnarok gets back to the earth... more helplessness you can't control... Also, what happens ON the ragnarok (after you clear out the monsters, of course)... very emotional.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 6/18/2012 10:24:17 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:27:58 AM

Beamboom: I know you don't believe it, but the instant you infuse an ounce of freedom and choice into a story, the pre-written characters begin to lose their identity.

I never cared about the Dragon Age story because the characters are mostly faceless. Worse, the main character is entirely faceless because you're allowed to basically create him or her. Hence, I don't care about that character. Mass Effect is better but player freedom means clashing with any scripts and actually, writing scripts of your own.

You like that and you don't understand why people wouldn't want it. And that's fine. But the people who played fully linear, totally epic, beautifully written and drawn stories understand that being PASSIVE when it comes to experiencing the story is one of the best parts. Obviously, we still interact with the game for the gameplay, but I had no interest in having a choice when Cloud was to answer a question. Zero.

I wanted to see the story that was written. I also didn't want to wander around for no reason and lose sight of that story. I had a world map to explore and that was enough; any more than that, and you start to lose the thread of the plot. This has always been my argument for linearity because that's the ONLY way stories can actually be conveyed. Anything more than that is a mish-mash of multiple stories that are created on the fly.

I wasn't interested in that then, and I'm not really interested in it now.

6 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:57:49 AM

Great post Underdog, and as many probably know, I have always love the Rinoa character, I did indeed fall in love with that character. So many people go on about Tifa and Aerith. Don't get me wrong, they are both great characters and Aerith's death still halts me in FFVII. But Rinoa was somehow more dear to me. The story was fantastic and I remember the scene you describe very clearly, and the feeling of helplessness is extremely pronounced. Whatever the creators did with the story, pacing and visuals, it was spot on, and very much had the desired effect for me. There were times in the game when I literally wanted to reach through the screen to help. I finished replaying FFVIII on my PSP earlier this year and thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it.

Beamboom, the more you post on this topic the more clear the chasm of understanding becomes with regard to you and JRPGs, or even story driven RPGs. Open world and player freedom don't work in story driven games, and much like reading a novel, very many people like to 'read' the book, not chop it up into pieces and consume it out of order, injecting new elements that don't fit the established story along the way. That's not a criticism of you, but rather pointing out the obvious fact that you don't get (and perhaps do not really want to get) story driven RPGs and especially JRPGs. That's fine, no one says you have to like or understand the genre. But you persist (in my oinion) in attempting to shoe-horn the JRPG/story drive RPG genre into your understanding of it. It just does not work that way.

Liam, diluting the definition of RPG is precisely why this discussion is so difficult now. RPG used to have a very clear definition in the minds of gamers. So did JRPG. But now, that definition has been diluted by a near constant pilfering of leveling, item enhancement and skill mechanics by other games that then describe themselves as RPGs or having RPG-like elements. It's got to the point now where people can seriously talk about Uncharted as an RPG, when it's nothing of the sort. Of course if you take the broad possible literal definition of Role Playing game, any game where the player plays or takes a role is technically (based on that broad definition) an RPG. But really, that is not what RPGs are, not in video gaming terms.

Last edited by Highlander on 6/18/2012 11:07:43 AM

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telly
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:01:20 AM

Just want to say I think Beamboom and Ben both raise great points. I'm a huge Mass Effect fan, and at the same time the thought of giving Cloud choices in the direction of the narrative is horrifying. I absolutely LOVED those classic RPGs that had amazing stories you passively took in. The interaction came in the gameplay. These are just two schools of thought, and for me, I love them both. I just think it's sad now that because the former is so popular, the latter has almost disappeared. I'd like to see great games in both styles in equal measure.

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Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:45:46 AM

Ben,
Small correction: I both understand, respect and defend that others have other preferences than me. The gaming world would be a lot duller had game developments been dictated by my preferences alone.

But I am unsure what you mean with "faceless". If that means "no personality" then I don't understand how you can say that.
Take Merrill from DA2, and her unsure, vein being. How can you call her faceless, how can you NOT be charmed by that personality?
Or Morrigan from DA:O and her relation with her mother, not to mention her seductive and dark behaviour. Faceless?

Or the utterly diverse and imho incredibly interesting different backgrounds and personalities of the characters in Mass Effect 2... I mean, take *any* of the characters in your crew there, and I could write an essey about them! Faceless?

What I think is the case here, is that this is more a question about our age than the games themselves.
I dare say, that the teenagers today are just as seduced by Isabela (DA), Liara or Tali (ME) as your Rinoa and other characters you guys fell in love with back then.

Ok, so there might be a stronger narrative in the games you guys talk about. But it's a far stretch from that to saying they are *faceless*.

And Highlander, I really wish you could play DA and ME before you can draw any conclusions about my opinions in these discussions.
Seriously, please, go play them. I think you will be surprised. You will discover that ME is far from as "open world" and non-linear as you think they are, for example. Their openness and "player freedom" is highly overrated. It's essentially cosmetic. The story is nowhere as fragmented as you seem to think.

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 12:08:46 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:58:02 AM

I know you respect others viewpoints and preferences, Beamboom. You don't always have to qualify your comments with that disclaimer. :)

But you've unknowingly made my point. I liked Merrill in DAII, and I liked a lot of the characters in the ME series. However, due to the extreme focus on gameplay in DAII (which absolutely supplanted the focus on story), we never really spent much time with those characters. Yes, we'd talk to Merrill sometimes and do some quests for her. But it was 99% gameplay; who she is, her background, her ambitions; it was only lightly touched upon.

You see, in comparison to the depth of character development in entirely linear RPGs, that's very, very light. Almost non-existent light. If you were actually touched and affected by anything story-wise or character-wise in DAII or ME, you should - by all rights - be absolutely blown away by games that REALLY focus on characters and plot, to the point where they occupy your mind as REAL people.

As additional proof, the graphics in those days obviously doesn't compare. We weren't seeing CGI-like faces. And at the same time, we were far more affected emotionally because of the laser focus on characters and story, which can only - ONLY - happen when you completely eliminate player choice and freedom.

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Beamboom
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:29:24 PM

Ah, my disclaimer was as a reply to your quote; "you don't understand why people wouldn't want it". I think I understand. But it's a good thing if I need not disclaim that when we discuss this in the future. :)

But back on topic: Do you really not think age play any role here? That had you been a teenager today, you'd be just as engaged, moved and involved in these games as you were as a teenager back then?
Heck, even as a 40-something I've still had my very emotional moments, especially in the Mass Effect trilogy.

Regarding DA I agree it went in the wrong direction with the sequel, on many levels. I still think the characters were great though. And I think there was quite some to get to know about the characters, if you went to their houses between the missions and chatted with them.

But please note, I don't by any means think the Bioware games are flawless or perfect. Not at all. *Especially* not in DA2.

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/18/2012 2:28:24 PM

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Underdog15
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:36:14 PM

Merril was definitely quirky, and I spent time trying to get wiv' her. And I liked her character. But a character like Rinoa is one of those... never forget like a dear friend kind of characters. Like Tiny Tim in A Christmas Carol. They become like family. lol

EDIT: As for age, Beammy, I think that's why I used FF8 for my example. Because I'm playing through it now, and the scene I described I played through this very week. In fact, less than half a week ago. I actually picked up on more artistic decisions than when I was a kid, so it kinda felt even more potent now.

Like... remember any character you fall in love with in any medium... the game literally makes you watch her slowly drift away in space from one end of the screen to another while you can do nothing to stop it. And the music stops and everything... it was slow, sad, and hopeless sounding music... and just when she starts to give up... the music stops, and you watch her drift, for literally over a minute. lol

It's just really well done, is all. (You had to do it well without the graphics we have now!)

Wonder if I can find a link to the clip... (it will be less potent though since you don't already have a connection to the character)

Last edited by Underdog15 on 6/18/2012 12:39:58 PM

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Underdog15
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:57:04 PM

Ok, so the only full clips I could find are voice dubbed by fans who didn't do a very good job. lol (The game has no voice acting) So excuse the bad acting. Especially Squall's. lol Anyways, this is the scene I was talking about. Again, hard to get into since you don't know the characters (This is on disk 3 of the 4 disk game, so they are already well established) but still, for the technology of the PS1 era, it's fantastic. Hard to believe it's approaching it's 15th anniversary!!

Here's the first half,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afLAus5USIo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL0C0DB2AA8AC56059

Here's the second half:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2hqqofwKYM&feature=relmfu

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FM23
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:05:17 PM

@Ben...gotta agree with the linear story thing. Games likes Demons Souls and Fallout have faceless characters, but I think thats the point. Create your own story. Now with ME and DA, I wouldn't consider them faceless as you pick your own scripted dialogue and not really the event. Everyone was pretty upset over that lack of choices in ME3's ending, but honestly these games lead to the same ending. But I enjoy sitting back and watching the story unfold like in Uncharted, Metal Fear Solid, Assassin Creed, etc. Having all these choices in wrpg's does get annoying though, that's why I loved the linearity of Max Payne because I juat sat back and watched a movie really.

I will never understand the RPG's of yesteryear, but they seem to fit my story orientated playstyle minus the ones that focus on anime stereotypes.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:17:28 PM

Beamboom: Age may have something to do with the situation, as nostalgia always plays a role.

But it's irrelevant when it comes to the fact that with purely linear games that focused so heavily on plot and character development, there was simply much more of that in the older games. Whether one liked it, or even whether it was any good really is irrelevant in the discussion, as there was simply more in the way of storytelling.

Granted, one could argue it was by way of default, as the technology wasn't there to let us interact more. But whatever the reason, the storytelling was more like a book, which made characters like Rinoa - as Underdog is talking about - and others come alive in ways they just don't to today.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:41:11 PM

The older games were much more book like, in that your imagination played a much larger role. Your imagination brings those characters, the blocky shaded polygons onscreen, to life. Rinoa was a living breathing woman in your mind's eye because the technology did not allow the game to present her in that manner. Like reading a book, when the imagination in engaged, it really drives the experience forwards. The imagination is one of the most powerful tools we possess. The worlds and characters in the games were created on screen, but embellished in our heads. You fell for the Rinoa you imagine her to be, not just the thing you see on the screen.

Games today have the benefit of technology on their side, so some fantastically pretty characters can be created by game creators and depicted in HD onscreen. The technology also allows for a more visual method of story telling. the result can be that your imagination does not engage as much as it did before, and it's therefore more difficult to form a connection the way we did in the games of yesteryear.

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Beamboom
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 @ 1:01:06 AM

Ben,
I didn't mean nostalgia although that obviously plays a role too, I literary meant age in itself. As a teenager we get more easily impressed, and often by other things than we do as adults.
When I see again the cartoons I totally loved as a kid, like Schooby Doo, it always strikes me how simple and banal the stories are. It was basically just... nonsense. But back then I totally loved the series. I got genuinely scared by the ghosts, I fell in love with that blonde cutie, I thought the mysteries were amazingly well written... You know. But had Schooby Doo been all there was on the TV today, I'd never watch TV anymore.

And had gaming today been like it was back in the late 80s or early 90s I think I can say with a good degree of certainty that I'd not be a gamer today. I'm simply too (and I hate to use this word) old for that. Too old to watch flat, green boxes imagining them to be fields of grass, too old for imagining big black lines to be a road I travel fast. I'm simply too *old* to be impressed by a 2D sprite of a tree, scaled up as I came closer.

Highlander,
Indeed you are right. Our imagination *is* a wonderful thing, and we lose some of that when things become too graphic. The most fantastic images are those you see when reading a book.
But still, do you think you'd be a gamer today if what we had to play today were the games the kids played back in the old days? Or is a kids mind required?

Last edited by Beamboom on 6/19/2012 1:10:30 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 @ 3:56:07 PM

Beamboom: I think that's hard to say. I may have been a teenager but I was already in college by the time FFVII came out, so it's not like I played the games in question when I was 12 or 13.

And when it comes to the graphics, it's basically ALL nostalgia. Of course they were inferior to today's presentations and nobody would say otherwise. But as for the stories and characters, despite lacking the heavy dramatic grittiness we see a lot of today, they were just better developed and more of a focus.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/19/2012 3:56:45 PM

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MrAnonymity
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:06:57 AM
Reply

I guess it is saying something when you are able to part with your entire collection of PS2 games (78% being RPGs) and still maintain a death-grip on those PSone classics. I loved my PS2 RPGs: Star Ocean: TTEOT, the Suikoden series, the Persona series, Radiata Stories, the Tales of... entries, etc. Alas, my heart is with the greats on the grandpa console. I will say (gasp if you must) that though I positively loved my SquareSOFT RPGs, it was Suikoden II and Star Ocean: The Second Story that really created my foundation for the genre. By no means are they the best the PSone had to offer, but they are what undeniably enthralled me into such a fantastic, rewarding genre. As such, I must agree that the PSone is the reigning king of the RPG. I eagerly await what the PS3 and later consoles have to offer, but I stand unswayed at this point in time.

Also gotta echo World and say that Tales of Graces F is quite a kick, as was Star Ocean... but I am biased with my vote on Star Ocean considering I am, without shame, a series fanboy.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:46:38 PM

I really hope somebody decides to reverse the decision to end the Star Ocean series.

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MrAnonymity
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:21:37 PM

I was completely unaware of The Last Hope being the final entry... ugh... that makes me sad. Considering tri-Ace is going through with a third Valkyrie Profile, maybe someday a new Star Ocean title could be possible. Even if it is ever so slim, I'll gladly hold out hope. I guess my inspiration would be that even though the Suikoden team was disbanded, a new Suikoden is in the works regardless. Sometimes... being a fanboy is pretty saddening...

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xenris
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 @ 8:45:02 AM

I love the combat in star ocean, as well as the cool Sci Fi setting. I beat number three so it is kind of hard for them to make anything after that game, however they could just keep making prequels?

If not a new IP with a similar battle system and I would be all over that. Question I haven't gotten around to playing SO4 is it as grindy and save point stretched out as SO3?

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Kevin555
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:27:00 AM
Reply

The PS1 will always be the undisputed king of RPG's just like the PS2 will always be the undisputed king of survival horror games.

As a horror buff this gen has been disappointing for horror games with the exception of Dead Space & Siren Blood Curse. Even then, none of those can touch anything like Fatal Frame, Silent Hills at their peak, Clock Tower, Demento etc etc.

But hey, that is why we hang on to these classics right, so we can go back to them at our leisure.

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VampDeLeon
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 4:12:58 PM

I wouldn't say just Survival Horror games, PS2 was the king of great Sequels and every other genre just by the size alone whether Racing, Sports, Action/Adventure, and RPGs of course. Though the PS2 may win by having more, the PS1 you can recognize which title would stay dear so it would win by the most quality and likely to hold nostalgia.

Last edited by VampDeLeon on 6/18/2012 4:14:50 PM

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Ultimadream
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:03:44 AM
Reply

Me and my friend still argue over this, I think it is because my three favourite games are made on the system - Final Fantasy VII, VIII & IX. So for me that stands tall. But other than that here in the UK we didn't get too much for the PS1 - We got no Xenogears, Parasite Eve 1, Chrono Cross... To be honest as a big RPG fan all my PS1 RPG's are Final Fantasy (Other than the ones I just mentioned which I've got off the US PS Store (Which I am so grateful I can finally play - If I played Parasite Eve 1 back in the day I bet it would be one of my favourite games today, loved it.)

My friend believes the SNES is a big competitor, looking at the list I can honestly see why - Chrono Cross, Star Ocean, Legend of Mana just to name a few - there are tons of RPG's on the system when you look out for them.

I personally believe the PS2 was when RPG's were in there prime. I may prefer the PS1 Final Fantasy's but X was the next best entry in the series for me. Then you have Level 5 which burst out onto the console with Dark Cloud, Chronicle (DC2), Dragon Quest VIII, Rouge Galaxy. All top notch games! Then you have Kingdom Hearts - While the series has dragged on the first title which I thought would be a disaster gave me one of the best experiences on the console. Then you have all the Shin Megami Tensei games which flooded with quality on the PS2. So I have to say If you're an RPG fan you really cannot go wrong with a PS2.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:52:35 AM

Well the PS2 is probably king for many reasons, not least the fact that it could play PS1 games, so many PS1 JRPGs that came out after PS2 launched were also effectively PS2 games since they played on PS2 without modification. Then the PS2 had a huge library of great JRPGs as you have said. Xenosaga being just 1 such ngame...

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Ultimadream
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 11:42:56 AM

Xenosaga has been completely butchered here in the UK. We never got the first game. We got a special boxset edition of the second part (Which had the game on 2 discs and an anime bonus disc - instead of Part 1.) & Then we never even heard of the third part.

I only knew about it because my flatmate came home from town one day with it which he got for only a few pounds... but it's kind of redundant without the other 2 parts anyway.

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xenris
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:11:44 PM

Man how did I forget about Rogue Galaxy!!! I put over 100 hours into it, but it just left my head when I was listing good PS2 rpgs. But yeah, I think the PS2 had some ridiculous RPGs and honestly the more I think about it I think it edges ahead of the PSX but only barely.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:54:58 PM

Absolutely Ultima, I don't understand the Publisher on that one, then again it's Namco, and I rarely understand them now.

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Rogueagent01
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 6:10:32 AM
Reply

For me I don't know if a system can ever beat out the PS1. The RPGs on it were of the highest quality and the most creative to date by far...The games I remember playing all the time were FF VII, VIII, IX, Tactics, Persona, Persona 2 Eternal Punishment, Wild Arms 2, Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger, Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, Vagrant Story, and my favorite Star Ocean: The Second Story. I could keep listing them but that list there sucked probably 5 to 7 thousand hours out of my life and I don't regret any of them.

Don't get me wrong the PS2 wasn't far behind at all, in fact I could easily side with somene if they wanted to call it a tie. However I give the PS1 the first place slot because the entries were more creative.

Unfortunately this gen has lacked creativity. The only one I can say for certain that was really creative was Valkyria Chronicles, other then that I can't think of any(that I have played) that were as creative as the PS1 & 2 RPGs.

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___________
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 7:14:49 AM
Reply

probably yea.
unfortunately the market has changed theres not a desire for them like there was back then, and at the time the ps1 was getting the majority of them so i doubt will ever see a system surpass it.
unless JRPGs are the shooter of next generation...............

*looks over at ps1 and digemon case and cries*
some days i have dreams on how that game would be if it was made today!
they just dont make adventure games like they use too!
:(

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Ninja_WafflesXD
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 8:08:15 AM
Reply

Reading this article made my realise how little jrpgs there are in my PS3 collection.

While I always played a wide variety of games from different genres, both my PS1 and PS2 collections consisted of probably 70% jrpgs, 30% everything else.

It's only really hit me now that there is an extreme lack of quality jrpgs this gen. The only ones I own are Valkyria Chronicles and FF XIII/XIII-2, the later which would be (rightfully) considered to be jrpg-lite :/

Last edited by Ninja_WafflesXD on 6/18/2012 8:09:00 AM

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:48:11 AM

Valkyrie Chronicles is more of an SRPG with JRPG styling. That said, it's a fantastic game and in many ways the best game in the region of the JRPG genre this generation. But there are others that are very good too, although some seldom get the respect they deserve.

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xenris
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 8:37:22 AM
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I personally would have to say the PS2 and the PSX tie. Only because I was more heavily into RPGs when I got my PS2 as they didn't seem so daunting to me as they did on the PSX.

The Shin Megami Tensei games I played like Nocturne and Digital Devil saga were all stellar. Then you have suikoden 3 which was ridiculously cool too. Don't forget Kingdom Hearts, Xenosaga, and Shadow Hearts. Plus we had FF10, FF12 FF11 if you played online, and my personal favourite JRPG of all time Dragon Quest 8.

I think its hard to declare a clear winner, at least for me so I would give a tie to the PSX and PS2. PS3 has some catching up to do, alas I don't think it will.

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Highlander
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:46:40 AM

I think I would go along with PS2 as the king since it played all PS1 games as well as the killer JRPG titles of it's own.

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Dreno
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 8:48:22 AM
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Not disagreeing about the ps1 being the king of rpgs.
But the ps2 had a few also.
Aside from the ones that were mentioned, I played 6 of the 7 greatest rpgs in the series on the ps2, the.hack series. excellent games.

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telly
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:55:43 AM
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I think PS1 was characterized by an extremely adventurous and excited spirit of development. You could tell developers and gamers alike were just STOKED at what was now possible with vastly increased storage capacities, voiceovers, greatly improved soundtracks, polygon graphics, etc. And I think no genre embodied that excitement better than the RPGs of the era.

I love the current era of gaming and I'm positively stoked at where the medium is heading, but I'll always love the crazy creativeness that characterized the PS1. I doubt we'll ever see anything quite like it again.

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SaiyanSempai
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 12:13:02 PM
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Yes, PS1 rules the RPG. Man, I love thinking back on those games you mentioned, as I've played most of them. Those along with Xenogears, Lunar: Silver Star Story, etc.

Those were the days...

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Underdog15
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 1:25:09 PM

Xenogears' story was one of the most well thought out plots I've ever seen. I am -REALLY- disappointed they couldn't stretch it out and just summed up the final disk. But such is the way of their funding.

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ZenChichiri
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:43:45 PM

Purge the lambs!

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 3:48:09 PM
Reply

Did anybody but me play Granstream Saga? It was so so bad that it was kinda good.

"Come with me, I've got some magic in the basement" Uh, okay old man here I come.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 4:30:22 PM

I mentioned it in the article. :)

I played it and beat it. It wasn't very good and yet, I had to finish it...I don't even remember why.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 6:10:06 PM

Right I was wondering if any of the other community members played it, I have some funny memories of that game.

I saved right before the end and so got to see both endings (I think it's safe to drop a spoiler here) and no matter which girl you chose to sacrifice everything was A-okay.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 6:36:36 PM

I don't remember anything about that game, besides the fact that the characters didn't seem to have facial features outside of the anime cut-scenes. LOL

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ZenChichiri
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:06:08 PM

Granstream Saga...I never thought I would hear those words uttered out of the mouth of a human being ever again. And much like Ben, all I remember is dungeon crawling in these floating islands and not having a face.

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KingRed
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 7:50:42 PM
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Did anyone play Front Mission 3? That was one game, I played the h*ll outta. Beat both stories in the game. Had 80 plus hours in both play thru. Just on the frist two play thru's.

Last edited by KingRed on 6/18/2012 7:51:35 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 10:25:33 PM

Bad memories of FM3. Not because it's a bad game - quite the contrary; it's awesome - but because of what happened:

Had my stupid EB-branded memory card get corrupted, so I lost 30 hours of FM3 data. After that, never bought anything but Sony memory cards and never had another problem (through the PS1 and PS2).

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Temjin001
Monday, June 18, 2012 @ 8:28:33 PM
Reply

Right now to me WRPG's are a lot more compelling. And that probably has a lot to do with the fact that they're the only things that really exist on a high production scale. One of my issues, and it always has been with jRPGs of the past, is how detached I felt from the storytelling, probably due to cultural differences in communication and meaning, I dunno. When I went back and played FF7 again I thought, wow, yeah, this was epic.. for it's time. But man the dialogue and plot events just seemed like something written for a teenage audience who loves anime, which they basically were of course. It's something that felt much more clear to me now than it did then having revisited FF7 within the last couple years.
With that said, despite FF's linearity and pure adherence to the narrative, I still preferred Mass Effect's story and it's characters to the majority of stories I encountered on the PSX. And that has a lot to do with the more mature, more dynamic feeling personalities written for the characters in ME ... probably why people were so irate over ME3's ending... they liked the characters. Like Miranda, for example, hard on the outside but would open up enough given the time. Her character had a very defined, very memorable part, just as Liara or any of the others I befriended on my journey. Their personalities were strong and well implemented and easily compelling enough on their own to carry my interest to "find out" what made them tick.

But to be entirely agreeable to the complete dirth of PSX style jRPG's, strictly narrative driven RPG's, just don't exist today as they had then, being not nearly at the same level of production or status as they once had. And that's sad. It'd be nice to have seen that format of RPG "grow up" with the audience that loved jRPG's from the 32-bit era from a story telling perspective. Looking at stuff like Heavy Rain and Beyond clearly has a more mature narrative than anything the PSX was doing with it's jRPG stories. And this suggests to me that the strictly told narrative format of RPG design could've been something that still shined brightly today, and would've well distinguished themselves from the norm WRPG that populates the players game time, if only they had continued to prosper. ANd if they had prospered as they had from prior eras, perhaps the difference in game play styles would remind gamers of today just how different a more open world style RPG feels from the more linear style, with each owning their own strengths for gamers to resolve and respect individually.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 6/18/2012 8:30:54 PM

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farfus
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 @ 6:03:13 AM
Reply

Some of my greatest gaming experiences came in the ps1 rpgs FFVII, FF Tactics, Xenogears, Kings Field, Kings Field 2, Alundra. Must have played 50 rpgs on the ps1. I loved the snes for their rpg's but no doubt the ps1 was king of that field lol!

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Jotun
Thursday, June 21, 2012 @ 5:21:16 PM
Reply

"Plus, the industry has shifted. Story-driven RPGs just aren't popular..."

I have this need to comment on this one point Ben. I've long explained this "lack of popularity" gamers blame for us not getting the games we want.

The problem isn't lack of popularity, it's the fact that they're exactly as popular as they were during that generation and the SNES generation. In those times, before there was an install base in the upper range of the tens of millions, an rpg like Secret of Mana might sell 400k copies. This not only reembersed the publisher because the dev time was only 1 year or so(compared to games that now spend money for 4-5 years sometimes before making a penny back), but it was also a decent percentage of an install bases' audience.

The issue that gives the appearance of these not being popular is that install bases are so much larger than they ever were and 400k sales doesn't even begin to make back a percentage of the high costs of development. This is EXACTLY what happened to Shilling and Amalur(that and he's a moron for thinking it would sell 10 million copies).

Bottom line, no. We'll never see it again. We'll see examples here and there, but the rpg genre will never again be one of the big 3, big 5, or possibly even big 10 genres on a videogame system.

Mostly all the same people play JRPGs that did back in that generation and some have even left. The number of new fans coming in is slight compared to those who don't get to game anymore.

Also, Xenogears is my favirote JRPG or all time if just for the story. The laundry list of A1 classics is robust to say the least, but how can you ever hope to beat a game that good? FFVII-IX, Persona 2, Suikoden 1 and 2, FF:T, Vagrant Story, even rereleases like Ogre Battle or smaller IP's like Brave Fencer Musashi. 90% of that systems rpgs are better than 100% of the ones out today. I just wish they had trophies hahaha ;p

Last edited by Jotun on 6/21/2012 5:25:20 PM

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PeteRock
Friday, June 22, 2012 @ 7:39:23 PM
Reply

I agree with Ben as well. The PS1 had so many great RPG's. For me the SNES would be a close 2nd followed by the DS but only because of all the great re-releases they mad for it.

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ddsfan2
Friday, August 17, 2012 @ 3:45:44 PM
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For JRPGs? Without a doubt as a whole, although the PS2 and SNES are close contenders (I personally prefer the PS2 for the Digital Devil Saga games, but I love Xenogears on the PS1 among dozens of other games)

I think that ever since Nintendo acquired Monolith Soft, (or even a bit before, the backlash against the Xenosaga games was tremendous) there has been a strong bias against story driven JRPGs, (I've seen dozens of fans absolutely gleeful about their change in demographic) and I think due to Sony's bad market position, (in that they are too broke to fund a JRPG right now to counter these notions) any JRPG that focuses heavily on story will either receive flak for doing so, or will do poorly in sales. (Nier, anyone?)

The point of all my rambling is, that we won't see anything like the JRPG lineup on the PS1 for a very long time, if ever. I suppose the Nintendo and Sony handhelds are the closest we will get to a PS1/PS2 like JRPG experience, even if it isn't as good.

Last edited by ddsfan2 on 8/17/2012 3:51:12 PM

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Will The PS1 Always Be The Undisputed King Of RPGs?

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