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Bethesda Having Trouble Bringing Skyrim Dawnguard To PS3

Yeah, well, so what else is new?

PlayStation 3 owners are sort of used to being treated like second-class citizens by Bethesda, typically getting inferior versions of multiplatform games and waiting eons for extra downloadable content, while Xbox 360 and PC players are quite well served.

We're still waiting on Dawnguard, the downloadable expansion for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, but based on what a company representative said in the publisher's forums, it may never show up, even though they are working on it.

"Skyrim is a massive and dynamic game that requires a lot of resources, and things get much more complex when you're talking about sizable content like Dawnguard. We have tried a number of things, but none of them solve the issue enough to make Dawnguard good for everyone. Dawnguard is obviously not the only DLC we’ve been working on either, so the issues of adding content get even more complicated. This is not a problem we’re positive we can solve, but we are working together with Sony to try to bring you this content."

Blah blah blah. This isn't 2007. You've had an entire generation - in fact, an elongated generation when compared to previous eras - to get your act together, Bethesda. I'm not accepting lame excuses, anymore, and I'm usually the first to stand up and defend developers for all their hard work and sacrifices. No other game maker seems to have these ongoing problems with the PS3 at this stage. That should tell you something.

Dawnguard launched back in June for the 360 and was out for the PC in August. PS3 owners...eh, you might see The Elder Scrolls VI before you see any more DLC for Skyrim.

Related Game(s): The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Tags: the elder scrolls v, skyrim, bethesda, skyrim dlc, dawnguard dlc

8/31/2012 10:27:11 AM Ben Dutka

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Comments (85 posts)

BTNwarrior
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 10:38:22 AM
Reply

I wish bethesda would do a ps3 to pc exchange program, cause right now Skyrim is unplayable on my ps3 and I don't want to start a new character that will also end up unplayable

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bebestorm
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:09:14 AM
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For quite sometime Ive thought Bethseda should stop making PS3 games because there is always too many issues and they don't seem interested in improving their skills for PS3.

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Doppel
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:45:36 PM

I'm actually enjoying Skyrim on my PS3. Sure it drops framerate once in a while, but I never encountered any game breaking bugs... yet.

Currently 25 hours in. I have a bad feeling because my save is creeping toward 6MB now.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:08:14 PM

Doppel you shouldn't see any real problems until it's over 9, and a lot of how that builds up depends on how you play you approach the game.

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matt99
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 3:25:16 PM

My file's over 11mb now and there are no major problems, it just takes a little longer to load

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bebestorm
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 4:17:44 PM

I only play Bethseda games on pc since Fallout 3.

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frylock25
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 5:34:20 PM

my file is over 13mb and i have no problems playing it. rarely have i had freezing or framerate issues. also i am about 360 hours into it.

Last edited by frylock25 on 8/31/2012 5:34:48 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 6:56:09 PM

You'll see the most issues if you go very magic heavy with your character.

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Lord carlos
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:11:22 AM
Reply

They won studio of the year at the last spike vga,should of been awarded to valve for portal 2!
Portal 2 was perfect on both consoles & pc with cross platform play & chat between PS3 & pc!
It would take bethesda 8 million years to do that with one of their games.

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Highlander
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:21:47 AM
Reply

Bethesda should have stuck to PCs.

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DazeOfWar
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:36:49 AM

This is exactly how I've felt about them. They should know how to make games work on the PS3 by now. Nobody else seems to have these problems. The thing that sucks about them treating PS3 gamers like this is that it'll hurt sales on Dishonored even though it was developed by someone else. People are afraid to buy games with Bethesda's name on it.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:48:03 AM

No, they should be better at their job.

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DazeOfWar
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:50:37 AM

My comment want supposed to be a reply to yours highlander. Guess that's whathappens when I user my phone to comment. Lol

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Highlander
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:07:31 PM

No problem Daze.

I agree though. There is no excuse for a developer that has the talent that Bethesda claims to have to still be producing such inferior PS3 versions of their games.

I've said this since the beginning of this gaming generation. All the whining about PS3 being hard and whining about memory is nothing more than excuses. The system is not too hard, it's simply not PC like. If you put effort into understanding the architecture you can make the thing sing like no other. I'm a technologist, computer scientist, programmer, analyst, and of course gamer. I know that the adage "a poor workman blames his tools" has never been more true than in technology. The system is capable of anything you program it for. Poor design, poor testing, poor debugging, insufficient optimization and just plane rushing things are the reasons for poor software. The hardware and software development environment are simply tools.

It's not like we lack examples of incredible exclusive or first party games for PS3 that demonstrate what the platform is capable of in the hands of a good developer. Even with Multi-platform games that has become true. Valve demonstrated this when it finally embraced PS3, look at how their games on the platform have improved over the half-assed ports of their earlier games.

There is no room for excuses, if you can't get it right on the PS3 it's because you're simply not working hard enough on it.

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Beamboom
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:22:25 PM

What have you programmed, Highlander? And is any of it available in public?

Regarding your post: If you are a professional programmer you know that it's not just a question of dedication and talent but just as much a question of budgets. When one platform is notably different than the rest it requires a lot of additional time just to get your code to work properly. And only hobbyists can keep working on something "forever".

It simply becomes a question of how much time you *can* put into a project before it's starting to cost too much. There are always deadlines, always other tasks waiting in the pipeline.

A practical comparison that you may know of: Internet Explorer 7. That browser is a *nightmare* to create webservices for. It simply behaves completely different than all other browsers.

Now, it is not impossible to make a site work on IE7 too. Not at all.
But oh my God how much extra work, time and trial'n'error it takes. So it all boils down to: How much time *can* we spend on customizing our code in order to make our service identical also for IE7 users.

Before you dismiss this comparison with that IE7 suck and cant be compared and so on, give it a minute or two and think about it. Cause this really is how it is with a platform that differ too much from the "norm", no matter if that platform is "better" or "worse" than the norm.


Last edited by Beamboom on 8/31/2012 12:49:46 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:22:24 PM

Beamboom: I have to say, I really don't give a good goddamn about all that. NO other game maker this generation has had such consistent and downright embarrassing problems with the PS3, and NO developer NOW is having anything even close to these issues.

Budget, yes. Deadlines, yes. I get it. So do other companies. They manage their business and somehow make it work. If you don't have the resources or time to successfully put out something for all platforms, which was the initial goal, then don't do it. A shoddy job is a shoddy job. Bethesda doesn't deserve the luxury of excuses.

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Highlander
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:34:39 PM

Beamboom, why should I justify my work experience to you? The ability (or lack there of) show by Bethesda has got nothing to do with my work, and 100% to do with theirs.

You're inferring a lot by throwing budgets out there as another excuse for poor coding by Bethesda. This isn't about budgets it's about a developer's ability to work on a platform. I won't take your example of IE7 either. Bethesda has pushed out products with fundamental flaws. They have consistently lagged on PS3 in terms of timely delivery. If you want to stick the the budget aspect of this, if the PS3 team is under resourced compared to the other teams, who is responsible for that? If additional PS3 technical expertise is required, but not obtained, who is responsible for that? If your PS3 products are consistently below par in quality terms, and late and you fail to take the action needed to fix the underlying problem, who's fault is that?

One way or the other it comes back to Bethesda and their ability to handle the PS3. It doesn't matter whether it's skill, experience, resources, management or a combination of these things, the problem is that Bethesda handles the PS3 poorly.

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Beamboom
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:52:45 PM

wohah - now that triggered a lot of aggression.

Highlander, I didn't ask for you to justify anything at all, I were genuinely curious as to what you actually do. I am a programmer too. Maybe we had similar backgrounds or experience, something in common we could enjoy discussing later, was all.
Usually people are happy to tell about their job and what they are into. Are you a frontend programmer? backend? DB-coder? Web-programmer? What?

Not sure if I can lower your guard here in any way but I can go first by showing you my latest spare time project, who you find at stompd-dot-org. It's a client for an audio server with some rather special features. Not the worlds most complicated piece of work, but still. I think it's cool. :)

In regards to Bethesda I was not out to defend or excuse anyone or anything, I just wanted to shed some light on a factor that few seem to think of when these topics are discussed.

Lord knows I've been involved in a *lot* of projects where we could wish we had more time. And these days we've experienced many issues with apps for the Android platform, due to the various versions and hardware specs that is out there. It really is a vasp nest right now. Our biggest challenge in these regards is to get our customers to understand the testing required for those apps compared to iOs apps. It simply needs much more throughout testing.

So that's a glimpse into my current weekday life. In all friendliness. :)


Last edited by Beamboom on 8/31/2012 3:03:52 PM

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Axe99
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 6:22:54 PM

In reply to the OP - except Beth release buggy, half-finished games on PC as well. Only reason Skyrim was playable on PC at launch was because PC gamers could get into the console to fix bugs on the fly. And the interface was poor for mouse/kb setups. Modders have helped them, but if modders fix your game, that doesn't make you a good developer!

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Highlander
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 7:47:50 PM

Excuse me Beamboom? Aggression? What in my reply can you possibly call aggressive? I pointed our quite directly that there's zero connection between any work I have ever done and Bethesda. I fail to see how that is relevant in any way. I further fail to see why you want to make this a personal issue. Kindly stop.

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Beamboom
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 11:58:32 PM

"why should I justify my work experience to you" sounds pretty snappy and aggressive to me. And completely unexpected too.

You are the first alleged programmer that I've ever met - *ever* - that don't want to talk about what he actually do. This is *not* how it usually is. It's usually a guaranteed icebreaker, but with you it's an ice builder. And one might ask, why?

You obviously take it personal, but it's not a personal question? It's a professional question. And an innocent one too.
- "What do you do?"
- "Well, I mainly do backend coding in C#".
Wow. Yeah that's real personal...

You must understand that it's you who introduce your own work by claiming you are a "computer scientist, programmer and analyst". You use these titles to add weight to your arguments. Therefore it becomes relevant. It's *you* who make it relevant.
And by doing so you must expect that someone sometime may ask about what exactly it is you actually do, just like we do with others who tell about themselves around here.

And if you actually did work as a programmer, analyst and scientist I don't really see any reason to evade that question. But that's just me.

I don't think I'll ever understand you, Highlander. You are one weird case. Not that I have anything against that - quite the contrary.
But you really don't need to wrap your opinions in fancy titles. They are interesting to read as they are, without the garnish. ;)
Peace out.


Last edited by Beamboom on 9/3/2012 1:48:13 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:55:28 AM
Reply

I said it before and I'll say it again, this is likely because they can't fix the game breaking problem they created on PS3 with the large save files. How could you go into a DLC with a broken game and expect it to work? The only answer would be to do the DLC early on and people would rather use the characters they have put 100 hours into than start over. Bethesda doesn't fix game-breaking errors.

I honestly hope not having PS3 experts on their team hurts their bottom line as that is the only thing companies seem to understand. Working with Sony isn't enough, Sony gladly helps retarded devs work with their hardware but they aren't going to do the work for them, they need a dedicated team of non-retards or antitards if you will.

Honestly I'd be very happy if they came out and said "Look, we screwed up. We shouldn't be releasing this stuff before we learned our hardware. We're going to skip this DLC for Skyrim and rededicate ourselves to fully understanding Playstation hardware for future Fallout and Elder Scrolls releases. We apologize to our fans."

That would make my day.

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Clamedeus
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 1:26:28 PM

Well said.

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Zeronoz
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 4:35:03 AM

Too true! Here for you guys to think:

"We have tried a number of things, but none of them solve the issue enough to make Dawnguard good for everyone." (Source:IGN)

What are these so called "number of things"? What issue?
A PS3 version exist?

"Dawnguard is obviously not the only DLC we’ve been working on either" (Source:IGN)

So when did they start making Hearthfire?

(Mind you, I skipped all news regarding Skyrim simply because I got bored of it)

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wackazoa
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:58:13 AM
Reply

Well my only problem is that they ever put it out for PS3 in the first place. If they clearly didnt understand how to program for the PS3 (nor seem to have any desire to learn) the dont put it out. This is purely a money grab by ZeniMax to get the extra from the PS3 console.

But I am glad they have at least said it might not come out for PS3. If they were up front about it from the start I think there would be less problems. Now this might give me a reason to buy a used xbox or upgrade my PC.

Ben's right, Beth has had a long time to figure out the PS3 like so many others and everyone else does fine. What is the problem with Beth that they cant ? Thats just lazy and I dont agree with it.

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Dustinwp
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:02:11 PM
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Bethesda doesn't even fix their own games on PC. The fans and PC modders do. Bethesda has always and will always be lazy HOT GARBAGE!

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Highlander
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:10:29 PM

Like a lot of PC developers, they were hooked on the constant treadmill of better CPU and GPU. So they don't optimize their game, and instead rely the hardware top make their poor software look good. When they came to the console world they ran right into a brick wall. That wall is the fact that on a console, you have a fixed platform and cannot depend on the GPU maker to make a GPU with 50% better performance. You have to actually improve your coding.

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xnonsuchx
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 3:11:36 PM

That's what a lot of people just don't get about consoles, Highlander...that a static platform is supposed to both make it easier for devs to not have to consider myriads of hardware configurations and allow (force) devs to spend more time optimizing their code. Some PC devs, instead of welcoming the challenge, just seem to feel frustrated it's not a PC (and bi*** and moan about how limited consoles are) and think they're successful if they just get their PC code ported over and running, avoiding looking at it much further as much as they can. It's kinda pathetic, especially when those devs claim to be as awesome as they think they are.

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Akuma07
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 10:35:39 PM

The number of companies that complain about it is nowhere near as much as it used to be. I think only Bethesda and Crytek do these days.

I mean, if Valve can triumph and produce awesome games for the PS3 than anyone can, I mean those guys HATED the PS3. Does anyone remember Gabe Newells numerous comments about the ps3? then seen see him standing on stage at a Sony conference announceing the PS3 would be the lead console for Portal 2?

The fact that they haven't fixed their issues they created with the PS3 Skyrim really shows the kind of talent they have in Bethesda management.

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Knightzane
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:24:30 PM
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I think its funny because from what ive played the DLC kinda blows. Its short and is about 4 hours long. Sigh... MS has dat moneys that bethseda sure loves.

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CrusaderForever
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:50:29 PM

Microsoft is hurting right now. I was on the IGN forums and there were Xbots saying "Why are there so many more PS3 articles than X360"? First response was "Because Microsoft doesn't have any exclusive games coming out". Another response, "Because M$ only makes games for XBLA and Kinect".

Microsoft is a dumb company because they have massive amounts of capital and don't seem to buy devs that could give them some exclusives. Microsoft is complacent and it's going to catch up with them even though they are a US console.

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CrusaderForever
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 12:43:12 PM
Reply

Poor Bethesda, reminds me of Star Wars being in the hands of Lucas!!! You just wish you could take the content and give it to another outstanding dev like Level 5, Rockstar or even Capcom since Dragon's Dogma turned out really good.

I own Skyrim and have played it for 4 hours. I was just getting into it when I heard all the buzz about the save games. So I stopped and thought I would wait for Bethesda to fix. I am going to go through Skyrim but it will be with the cat in a room full of rocking chairs mentality which sucks. :(

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:11:47 PM

To their credit the various patches have made things better, just not fixed it. The good news is you can still pump in over 70 hours before you start to notice problems.

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bigrailer19
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 1:10:10 PM
Reply

I sincerely love Bethesda games. They are arguably some of the best in their respective genres. There is no arguing that.

But as developers I just can't stick up for them. My love for their games simply isn't enough. Now let's be clear I havnt had the same types of game breaking issues as others admit they have with either Skyrim or Fallout 3. Sure my game froze once in a while but nothing like the complaints ive heard. And honestly I don't remember Elder Scrolls 4 and the Shivering Isles expansion having as many issues that have come up since Falliout 3, so why the poor releases now?

But it goes beyond these issues with a game itself. I can't stand that they seem to disregard PS3 fans. I hate times exclusive content. We purchased their game too, and therefore should get treated the same. The long waits for the Fallout 3 expansions was ridiculous, to have them perform like they did. I never had issues with Fallout 3 but the expansions were horrendous. I couldn't finish them. Shame. Now this? Come on! They just don't treat their fans or customers like they should and that speaks more volume about what type of company they are, than their developing skills.

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kraygen
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:00:49 PM
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I bought skyrim for my pc specifically because they flat out fail when it comes to ps3. The sad thing is, they really don't even care.

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Snaaaake
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:02:50 PM
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Not an excuse when even Valve did theirs.

SCREW BETHESDA AND THEIR BUG FEST!

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Jawknee
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:11:26 PM
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This is by far one of the most inept and incompetent developers in the industry.

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Oxvial
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:16:56 PM
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I knew this was going to happen, I'm happy that I'm not a fan of their franchises I only bought Oblivion and returned the game in less than 3 days.

BTW I thought this was Arnold, I'm impressed Ben finally isn't defending Bethesda o_o!

Last edited by Oxvial on 8/31/2012 2:24:54 PM

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BikerSaint
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 2:24:57 PM
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Things like this is why I don't buy Bethesda games until after they've reached the "used" $10 bargain bins, and only for their GOTY titles.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 3:03:10 PM
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It's too bad Bethesda's name will be on Dishonored as publisher, they should take it off to help sales ;)

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Axe99
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 6:21:33 PM

Aye, too right - for me, a 'Bethesda game' is ambitious in scope, but on a technical level poorly designed and implemented. It's got to be a corporate/cultural issue, because they do it again and again, regardless of of platform. I never buy a Beth developed game at launch (on PC or PS3 - note that Dishonored is only published by Beth), and Skyrim has only reinforced that approach.

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Akuma07
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 10:36:33 PM

It is a corporate issue for sure.

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matt99
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 3:37:55 PM
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Most of bethesda's games are amazing...if they work. Which usually means PS3 users don't enjoy the full potential of Bethesda's games.

Also, go Highlander! You should write an article detailing exactly why (technically speaking) Bethesda's excuses are invalid. And then we can get every ps3 user to email, tweet and even mail it in to bethesda...just so they know we can see through their BS :P

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BikerSaint
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 9:19:18 PM

Everybody needs to re-tweet & Facebook this thread, and put it on any other social sites as well.

Then once Bethesda sees the groundswell of displeasure against them being displayed everywhere, then hopefully it just might shame them into hiring some people that actually know the PS3's architecture well.

And I've already done my part to spread this across the net.

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Lawless SXE
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 6:43:27 PM
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I guess I get to eat my words from a few days ago. Any problem can be solved with enough dedication and if you have a team of hundreds; well then it falls to either laziness or utter ineptitude. Sure, Skyrim was screwy at launch, but they managed to create a workaround to get it running and now they claim to not be able to get the DLC running at all in spite of the fact that they managed it with Oblivion and Fallout 3 (with questionable quality, but it still ran). BS. The engine is obviously tailored to a PC architecture and that causes them problems but it's no excuse. Most every other developer has managed to get their s**t sorted out in the past six years but Bethesda is sticking to the same worn out ideas that everyone suffered from in the beginning. Just do the bloody job.

TL;DR. Bethesda suck. I'm going to need proof that they can do their job properly before picking up their next game as they deserve to lose out.

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Hynad
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 6:47:54 PM
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I think many of you fail to realize the unmatched scope of that game, and how limited the RAM in the PS3 actually is. 256 of RAM, and 256 of Video RAM is utterly ridiculously low for that kind of game.

If Sony had made its memory shared between the CPU and the GPU like Microsoft did, we wouldn't have as much problems with third party games looking and faring worse on the PS3.

But of course, the faults for the PS3's architecture falls on Bethesda's hands. -_-

Last edited by Hynad on 8/31/2012 6:52:01 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 7:02:16 PM

That's why you load the bulk of it onto the Cell cores like everybody else :P

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Hynad
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 7:03:40 PM

Wow, you sure don't know how it works. ha ha!

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bigrailer19
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:00:38 PM

I don't fault them for their developing skills as much as I do their business practices. I've had either really good luck with the majority of their games or people are blowing this out of proportion. Honestly I think it's a little of both, but I'm not saying people are lying in any way.

But regardless, yes Skyrim and all Bethesda games for that matter are huge. But so are a lot of other games that run pretty good. LA Noire was pretty big, and actually had more going on in the map than the long stretches of scenery in Bethesda games. I mean there is a lot of open world games that run just fine. But I see where you're going, I really do. Nothing compares to their games in the size and scope.

But let's be fair. We don't hear many developers or anyone else now at this point, saying anything about having difficulties with the PS3's or it's architecture except for Bethesda and... You!

Last edited by bigrailer19 on 8/31/2012 8:07:57 PM

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Rogueagent01
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:09:21 PM

Ok...then explain why they have very similar issues on the PC side? You don't have those restraints there and yet they have logged almost as many bugs.

Yeah...try like Bethesda to put the blame on Sony though 99% of the other developers make their games run just fine. Why don't you just blame us the fans as it has to be our fault too for wanting to collect everything in the game, or because we want to play as a mage.

Bethesda is without a doubt one of the most incompetent developers that has ever been in the industry. I have games from them going back to the PS1 that have game breaking glitches, this did not start with this generation it just finally affected enough people to make it known to the general public. Bethesda's ideas have always been grand in design, it is just that they literally have no clue how to execute it properly.

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Dustinwp
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:27:21 PM

Please...enlighten us than Hynad! Or do just criticize people for not knowing things you, yourself have no answers, too?
I have heard numerous developer interviews suggesting exactly what WorldEnds says about the Cell cores to solve the PS3 memory issues. Naughty Dog being one of them. But I guess you probably know more about game development then Naughty Dog? Am I right?

Last edited by Dustinwp on 8/31/2012 8:32:13 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:28:46 PM

Hynad apparently just defends anything PC-related to the death, and that includes developers who should've stuck with PC, too.

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Hynad
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:51:01 PM

Nope, Ben, I don't defend PC to the death.

I do defend reason though. Something that is obviously alien to you, since you blind yourself to anything that isn't your own extremely biased (allegedly) view on any given subject.

You're quick to jump at Bethesda with the only argument being that "other devs managed so they have no excuse... bla bla bla...". But no other devs out there ever tried to achieve what they achieve with the Elder's Scroll and Fallout series. You, and many others here are quick to blind yourself to that fact in favor of your own arrogantly biased agenda.

And don't you fool yourself. Rockstar's open world games don't come close to relying on the kind of data memory that Elder's Scroll requires.

Last edited by Hynad on 8/31/2012 8:53:10 PM

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Dustinwp
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:08:06 PM

@Hynad
Or maybe it's your bias towards Bethesda that's the problem. Considering the fact, that their software hasn't really worked that well on any platform at launch. Not even PC which is their bread and butter. Say what you will, but Bethesda's track record speaks for it's self! You can't disprove facts, dude!

Last edited by Dustinwp on 8/31/2012 11:09:15 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 3:41:11 PM

Hynad, if you can't understand logic, that's not my problem.

Blaming Sony for any issues Bethesda has in terms of completing solid, reliable products is both inaccurate and idiotic. That's like blaming the stove because I can't cook.

The sooner you figure that out, and the sooner you quit with your little jabs, the sooner I'll have more respect for you.

And I'd just love to know how you think you know everything about what GTAV offers. I guess you can see the future, too.

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Hynad
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 8:31:34 AM

Little jabs? Well, if you hadn't started yours against me, I wouldn't have responded with mine.

Now, what logic are you referring to? The one where I mention the difference in architecture between the PS3 and the 360? Which I mention is mostly due to Sony's choice no to have shared RAM...

Or do I have to go out of topic and mention the many bugs, inherent to most every Bethesda games ever conceived, that also happen to be completely unrelated to the issues at hand here (the memory problems of the PS3 that have been proven to be problematic with many game types this gen...).

Sure, I can play your game, and you can decide to play semantics and ignore any valid point I bring. The truth is, the PS3 is an incredible system for some types of games, with Sony's first party being exceptionally good at showcasing the potential. But it is also not so good for other types of games, where the 360 is just better suited for. You can go on and mention every clichés like "the devs are lazy" and whatnot. But at this point in the gen, I think you've been fooling yourself more than long enough. :(

It's really sad to be labelled as a PC nuts, when I'm just as crazy about Sony and most of their products as the next guy here. Yeah, I do play on the PC on occasion, but it has never succeeded in replacing a console for me. Much less the PS3.


Last edited by Hynad on 9/2/2012 9:08:28 AM

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Beamboom
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 12:44:21 PM

Don't mind Ben, Hynad. His vision turns completely red whenever he spot the letters "P" and "C" beside each other. It's of course a bit rich of him to blame others of any sort of bias when it comes to PC gaming, but oh well.

Just ignore those parts. Take it from someone that's been around here for a while. He'll never change.

Sorry Ben, but you know this is true. :)

Last edited by Beamboom on 9/2/2012 12:46:42 PM

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Highlander
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 7:58:12 PM

Hey Hynad, the PS3 is as limited as the 360, so perhaps you would care to explain why Bethesda can make it work there? It's not a case of one platform being more difficult or different. Neither of those excuses can take the blame for poor coding and bugs. It's simply that they put more effort into that platform.

I have heard more console gamers saying something along the lines of "If Sony had made its memory shared between the CPU and the GPU like Microsoft did, we wouldn't have as much problems with third party games looking and faring worse on the PS3." than I have had hot dinners in the last 6 years. 1) Shared memory architecture has it's own difficulties. 2) the PS3 memory is shared by the CPU and GPU, it's simply not a single pool of memory. 3) having a hard partition between system memory and GPU memory should be pretty familiar to any PC coder since that's how the memory architecute in PCs has been since forever (except of course for low end systems that use highly inferior integrated GPUs). 4) the system architecture of the PS3 was built around the Cell doing a lot of graphics work. That's why both CPU and GPU have high bandwidth access to system memory. The original PS3 design did not have a GPU, the Cell was to have done all of the work. The GPU was added later to lighten the load on the Cell and add GPU specific hardware.

The fact that certain developers have yet to figure out that you use both CPU and GPU in cert with each other in the PS3 is not the architecture's fault, it's the fault of developers too stuck in the paradigm of past system architecture.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 8:31:32 PM
Reply

Everyone defending Bethesda is seriously missing the point.

Nobody is saying the points about the PS3 limitations aren't valid. What we're saying is simple- You make a product. You deliver it to certain consumers. You can't deliver the same experience to some of those consumers. Hence, it's YOUR DAMN FAULT.

Bethesda does NOT get a free pass in any way. To do so would be to admit it's flat-out okay to be lazy.

And by the way, GTAV will be just as big if not bigger than Skyrim, from what we're hearing. Let's just wait and see if Rockstar has the same ridiculous issues with the PS3 in producing that game. Place your bets now.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/31/2012 8:32:25 PM

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Lawless SXE
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 9:07:53 PM

GTA V will, perhaps, be just as big, but there really won't be the same level of interaction. You won't be able to enter every building, get random items from lockboxes and carry around an inventory consisting of thousands of items, dropping them where you will. You won't be able to talk to just about any NPC and engage in dozens, if not hundreds, of quests extraneous to the main storyline.

I'm really not defending Bethesda anymore, but comparing Skyrim to GTA V simply because the map could very well be of a similar size is ridiculous. The two games are VERY different in their core goals. A better comparison would be Dragon's Dogma, or another RPG of similar archetype, no?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 9:13:19 PM

And based on what I've seen, GTAV will be leaps and bounds better in terms of visuals. There's also no knowing what we can carry or what we can go in; there could be a gigantic amount of inventory and a lot going on. There's also not much going on in the world of Skyrim; it's VERY empty all in all.

I don't think the comparison is ridiculous at all.

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Lawless SXE
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 9:49:55 PM

It just seems that it is wise to base our assumptions, for that is all they are, of GTA V on previous iterations of the series. It may be open for more world interaction, but I can't believe for a second that it'll be on the same scale as Skyrim. GTA V will have pedestrians walking the streets and cars driving about. It'll have planes and so on and so forth, but how much of it will actually feel dynamic rather than simply being dropped in there? It's a far cry from Skyrim where you can happen upon animals attacking each other in the wild and cause a war between orcs and bandits by leading one group to the other. Add in the dragon battles.

Yes, Skyrim is a, largely, empty land but it has a spark of life that no GTA to date has managed to capture. Perhaps ridiculous was the wrong word, but I don't see the two as being on an even footing on the grounds of world interaction which is the area that seems to be causing Bethesda grief.

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bigrailer19
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:30:11 PM

Im siding with Lawless here but I don't know how either of you can say Skyrim is empty. It's anything but. I'm 100 hours in and still finding locations. The map is crazy big and it don't take long before you stumble upon something if you decide to take off on a trek across the map. I agree that GTA might have more going on being in a city, having streets and cars and all. But Skyrim is anything but empty.

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Beamboom
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 2:30:15 AM

The Skyrim environment is much, *much* more complex than the GTA worlds we've seen so far and what is reasonable to expect from GTA5.

The GTA world is more comparable with the Saints Row, Infamous and Assassins Creed type worlds.


Last edited by Beamboom on 9/1/2012 2:31:30 AM

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Zeronoz
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 4:55:05 AM

I have to side with Ben here! (Perhaps Ben`s empty differs from mine but..) Skyrim is kinda empty. Just because you encounter dragons/bandits/creatures on your travel doesnt mean its a living breathing world. RDR is a near perfect example of a living breathing world. You encounter wild animals, bandits and fellow travellers. Granted both are of a different genre but deep inside it, both games offer something similar. Not to mention that I think there is little character development in Skyrim. Hence, you are not anchored in the world. Basically, I`m more in-tune with Marston than I`m with the Dragonborn. I care for Marston (The ending pisses me of to the point I stopped playing only to find out that its not over).

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Lawless SXE
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 5:59:47 AM

Zeronoz,
I'm not sure how you can detract from Skyrim in one sentence, then praise RDR in the next when very similar features are present in both. You meet bandits, wild animals and travellers in Skyrim in much the same way as you do RDR. Besides that RDR is smaller in scope, telling a directed story whereas Skyrim is about offering what can be referred to as a life substitute.

We're not arguing about character connection or any such thing, but world complexity and, to that end, Beamboom is right.

Also, bigrailer, yes, there are plenty of areas to explore and things to happen across, that's what I meant by a spark of life. You can't deny however, that there are vast swathes of emptiness in this miraculous creation.

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Hynad
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 12:11:27 PM

In Skyrim, if you drop something, if you stumble upon something and it moves, the game keeps its location in memory. It also keeps track of countless choices you make that dynamically alter the events in the game's world. Among many other things.

GTA? Yeah, sure, it's a crowded city. But all of it is randomly generated every time you get in and out of a "zone". Unless it's part of a scripted event.

No, the 2 are not similar.

Last edited by Hynad on 9/1/2012 12:13:03 PM

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PHOENIXZERO
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 4:54:26 PM

Skyrim's keeping track of damn near everything is why the PS3 version suffers from so many problems, the PS3 simply does not have the RAM to properly handle it. No Rockstar game comes close to do that, hell most of the time things reset once they're out of view, including cars appearing and disappearing with a turn of the camera which has been an issue that's plagued the series (and a number of other similar games) since GTAIII. Sony's biggest mistake was the PS3's wonky architecture and once again not offering the amount of RAM they should have with going that route. At least with Krazy Ken no longer in the picture the PS4 won't suffer the same issue.

That said, Bethesda annoys the shit out of me.

Last edited by PHOENIXZERO on 9/2/2012 4:54:57 PM

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Akuma07
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 10:37:28 PM
Reply

These guys might just be the next Valve.

Except Valve managed to listen to their fans, shut up, and fix their s**t, and now they make awesome PS3 games.

Then again....I don't see Bethesda ever doing that, so maybe they are worse then valve.

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playSTATION
Friday, August 31, 2012 @ 11:12:11 PM
Reply

They should pay Naughty Dog to show them a thing or two about programming for the PS3.

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Beamboom
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 1:39:23 AM
Reply

People, please.

It's not to give Bethesda a free pass to accept that the scope of their games, in particular with Skyrim, is unparalleled.
To create a persistent world that remember the exact location of where you happened to throw, push or kick every single little object in the game, well this is ambitious to the extreme. This is not seen in any other game on the Playstation. Not one. Think about that.

Yes, they release some of the most buggy games out there. True. BUT! They also release some of the most *complicated* games out there. And those two factors come hand in hand.

I don't say that you all should forgive everything "just because". But I do ask that you please, please also acknowledge the challenge of creating something with the complexity of Skyrim.

They *could* narrow the scope of the game and make it more like other games out there. It would be easier, safer and would lead to less bugs. They could be more "like the rest" and focus more on frame-rate and responsive controls.

Instead they go all out to create something that simply is not seen anywhere else!

Now, I don't say we should just accept bugs and errors. Neither do I say that you all should just suck up and shut up.
But just like I try to avoid calling every footballer who ever missed the goal in the pro leagues an "amateur" or "idiot" just because I don't understand football, I ask you to please stop being so judgmental just because you don't understand programming.

The Bethesda developers are not lazy, they are just crazy. They should probably have said "that can't be done" to the project managers, but unlike others they instead say "hmm - it's madness, but we might be able to pull that off!".
And voila, we get one completely unique game after another. That's not too shabby, is it?


Last edited by Beamboom on 9/1/2012 1:47:04 AM

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Rogueagent01
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 3:45:51 AM

They have consistently overreached their abilities, and I will never give forgive them for that. If they had any common sense what-so-ever then they would simply try to build the same game in a smaller world so they could actually find the breaking line in which the game goes from buggy to a disaster. Not only that but they have also screwed PS3 owners over this entire generation. That is another reason they get no pass from me, they show no care for customers, just the checks that a company will write them.

There are always developers that go beyond what most do, but most still understand the limitations of the systems they are programming for, or at the very least the limitations of their employees, Bethesda does not. It's tough enough to get their games to run smooth and bug free on a PC let alone a PS3 and that to me is because of their own incompetence, and the fact that they want to go bigger every time even though they still haven't ironed out the wrinkles of their coding.

Last edited by Rogueagent01 on 9/1/2012 3:48:36 AM

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Beamboom
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 4:24:11 AM

Good post, Rogue. I do agree with most of what you say there, and at least you set things in a rational perspective.

Yeah, I agree it looks like they seem to bite over too much. Their projects could probably earn from being held back a bit more to find that sweet spot you mention, the balance between complexity and execution.

But at the same time... Wouldn't that mean that we risk Skyrim ending up like just another Kingdoms Of Amalur or Dragons Dogma? Would we really want that?

With Skyrim they tried to shoe-horn a friggin' BUS into a shoe box. At least they deserve some cred for *trying*!


Last edited by Beamboom on 9/1/2012 4:56:34 AM

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Lawless SXE
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 6:02:04 AM

Credit where credit is due. They deserve that much for their worlds. And at least they openly admit to not being able to do it this time around rather than simply releasing a subpar product. I'm still not 'happy' about it, but you take your small victories where you can.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 3:38:18 PM

I don't care, Beamboom. I really, really don't. I know what they create better than most. If you can't do it correctly, you CAN'T DO IT. All designers have absolutely out-of-bounds ideas that just don't work because we don't quite have the technology to properly bring those ideas to fruition. They understand how to both shoot for the stars and accept reality.

If Bethesda can't do both, we don't blame the hardware. We blame them for poor preparation and overstepping the bounds.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 9/1/2012 3:43:11 PM

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Rogueagent01
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 4:55:38 PM

I think if they were to take an approach on a upcoming game and instead of releasing this huge open world, release small fairly priced DLCs that interact within eachother they would probably do a much better job. They just need to find another approach to the games as they are making great games that ultimately have even greater issues. I know that my idea above is probably not the right one, but at least I am trying to think of a better way to bring the games to the console, where unfortunately I don't think they care.

And I gave them credit in a post earlier that stated thier games are always grand in design. And as much as I hate them I own a boatload of Bethesda titles, which to me, gives me the right to call them out on the crap they've done, be it bugs/glitches or their poor customer ethics.

Hopefully the next generation of systems will be more accepting of their games but seeing as they still have issues even on high end PCs I don't think it is going to make that much of a difference.

And Ben I really like that line "They understand how to both shoot for the stars and accept reality." That is what it is all about, and anyone here who builds or creates anything should know that as a law. We must always understand our limits, strengths, & weaknesses and play to them.

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Akuma07
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 6:45:17 PM

Beamboom.

I AM a developer, and I DO understand programming.

I can tell you that the way Bethesda handles the PS3 is lazy at best.

If you make a commitment to bring a product to a target audience, then it is your ethical responsibility as the developer of said product to support it and make sure it runs the way it was intended to.

Ben's argument is in regards to the clear incompetence Bethesda shows towards the PS3. They can't get their heads around the PS3's programming and then when it starts getting hard and the community starts getting angry, they simply point the finger at the hardware. This generation is nearly over, they have had plenty of time to get their heads around it, if they can't hire PS3 experts, then their devs should have BECAME PS3 experts.

I don't blame the developers and designers at bethesda, I am sure they are doing the best they can, I blame the management and people in charge of the direction.

There is an architectural flaw in their 'persistent' world, which also causes several game breaking bugs. Their system of persistence is sloppy, and could do with optimising.

They should have experts of all platforms they want to release on, that is just common sense. But they are choosing to disregard the PS3.

Unfortunately in this world, business ethics is almost completely meaningless. To be honest, Bethesda could have released this game on all 3 platforms, and then never fixed a thing, and it still would have sold as well as it did. People are blind, and that is why companies get away with this.

Last edited by Akuma07 on 9/2/2012 6:49:29 PM

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Beamboom
Monday, September 03, 2012 @ 12:16:31 AM

@Akuma:
I simply refuse to call any fellow programmer who creates something that is *unseen* in any other game in existence for "lazy". It's too derogative a term for such a developer.

Had they been lazy they'd go create some oldschool shooter or platformer, or recreate a "HD version" of an old game. That's lazy. That's easy money.

The way I see it the core of the problem here could rather be that they tried fitting into a machine a game that was too big.

I can only imagine how they at one early stage *thought* they would be able to do it, and then as development progressed they started hitting a brick wall they were unable - for *whatever* reason but "laziness" - to work around.

Maybe they should have just ditched the PS3 version altogether. But do keep in mind now, that for the vast majority of gamers out there, Skyrim works just fine. For many of them, this is one of the finest gaming experiences they've had this generation.
Should Bethesda just have skipped the PS3 version of Skyrim? When all taken into account, I don't think they should. Even with the flaws it contains.


Last edited by Beamboom on 9/3/2012 1:09:01 AM

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___________
Saturday, September 01, 2012 @ 3:44:46 AM
Reply

simple fact of the matter is if you dont have the ingredients you dont bake a cake!
if bugthesda cant release a ps3 game on the same quality of its counter platforms then it should not make the game on ps3 AT ALL!
simple as that!
ok they dont have enough cash, or dont want to spend it on hiring new guys i could not care less what their problems are!
simple fact of the matter is if your going to make a product you need to make sure it works the same EVERYWHERE!
if you cant afford to spend x on bringing the ps3 version up to speed than cancel the ps3 version and put those saved resources into making the other versions better than what they already are!

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Gabriel013
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 3:53:06 AM
Reply

This is a disappointment though I'm at the stage of not wanting to play it on my PS3 anyway. The main issue I have is when I go to the map, my fan goes into overdrive and I'm worried my PS3 might overheat again. I've already had to have it repaired once.

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glodwenn
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 8:41:00 AM
Reply

Isn't there a lawsuit or something the ps3 fan's can slap them with?

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Bariikade
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 1:13:11 PM
Reply

...

Last edited by Bariikade on 9/2/2012 1:14:04 PM

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LazyVigilante
Sunday, September 02, 2012 @ 1:32:59 PM
Reply

wow...loved the whole discussion and enjoyed the article immensely...haven't seen PSX this alive in recent times...everyone seems to have a few valid points for or against Bethesda.Man, folks here are actually knowledgeable! I don't play skyrim and didn't play any of Beth's previous games but I sure hope the problems get solved for all you fans/players out there :)

PS: also I like how the fellow folks here often concur on some things and radically differ on others...seems like they're being honest instead of siding with what one guy or a mate of theirs' says...a sign of a healthy forum.

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Beamboom
Monday, September 03, 2012 @ 1:50:47 PM

Wel, in fairness we do find both categories of people, both the "one siders" and the "independents". But the mix is good. And above all, most people seem to respect other opinions than their own - even if they may never agree. And *that* is a quality not found everywhere.

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SS4
Monday, September 03, 2012 @ 4:22:06 PM
Reply

Pff, ive played all elders scroll game on PC as they should be played and the way they developed Skyrim with a 50/50 console/PC approach was terrible and disappointing.

And the half arsed PS3 version is not helping. Multiplat is really a plague in the gaming industries since too many are lame copy/paste on different systems with different architectures which gives horrible result more often then not.

Hopefully multiplat goes out the window next gen or dev should be whiped into shape to make a proper version for the console they are working on or just not release it in the form of subpar copies like we saw way too much this gen . . .

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