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BioWare Bosses Gone, Pachter Blames "Whining" Gamers

BioWare is currently working on Dragon Age III and there's every chance we'll see a new Mass Effect at some point.

But bosses Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk have announced their departure, and analyst Michael Pachter thinks he knows why. In a recent Pach-Attack episode (which is well worth a look), the Wedbush Morgan analyst pulled no punches, saying Muzyka and Zeschuk's leaving means future BioWare products "just won't be the same." And who's to blame? The "whining fans," who freaked out over Mass Effect 3. Said Pachter:

"That really could’ve been the straw that broke the camel’s back for the doctors. I think you guys who were out there whining vocally about how BioWare screwed you out of a happy ending, should really look in the mirror and wonder how you’re not getting anything like those games again with the doctors gone. You might get good games, they won’t be the same. That is like making a Godfather movie without Coppola being involved. It’s just not the same.

Your whining just pisses everybody off. It pisses off creative people. You’re not getting any enjoyment out of that. You have lost two super creative guys. You chased them off. Shame on you."

While it isn't necessarily the lack of a "happy ending" that annoyed gamers, I take his point. I and many other journalists and industry people were embarrassed at the hostile and altogether overly entitled outcry from gamers concerning the ME3 issue, and I've made it plain I have zero respect for the ME3 fan base that reacted in such a fashion. I'm not saying this contributed to the departure of Muzyka and Zeschuk but Pachter is 100% correct when he said that such whining "pisses off creative people."

It's important to have a voice. It's also important to shut the hell up when you're blatantly being selfish, nasty, and downright adolescent about a video game. More having fun, less complaining. Thanks.

Tags: mass effect 3, me3, bioware, michael pachter, mass effect fans

10/8/2012 10:52:51 AM Ben Dutka

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Comments (89 posts)

Lord carlos
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 11:48:32 AM
Reply

Ha
All the whining over Resident evil 5(tank controls ect.)made capcom change things up for resident evil 6 like HUD layout,upgrades,inventory & hell even the producers & music director who were there since resident evil 4.....and what did we get???....more WHINING.
I'll give this mass effect thing a go when the collection is released on one disc!

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ace_boon_coon
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:06:35 PM

RE6 is terrible. The zombies shoot now; That's not good. They could have gotten rid of tank controls. Just look at dead space.

Last edited by ace_boon_coon on 10/8/2012 1:06:55 PM

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Vivi_Gamer
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:14:18 PM

Didn't that happen in the later areas of RE4 & 5 too? I do agree that it is annoying though.

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Lord carlos
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:21:14 PM

ACE
A zombie learned how to shoot in Day of the dead so i dont see the prolem there,its mostly just aimed in your general direction anyway.
Ultima
Technically the enemies in re4 & 5 are not zombies but a body snatchers type deal with parasites. Knit picky i know :)

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Comic Shaman
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 11:53:49 AM
Reply

Listen, if you're a creator, you have two options here with a situation like this.

1) Expect a sweeping change in the way fans express themselves to suddenly manifest.
2) Learn to roll with the punches.

I'd work on 2, myself.

This is not a spoiled gamer thing. This is not a Mass Effect community thing. This is not even an internet thing. This is how passionate fans have always, always reacted when they are disappointed.

Ballet fans rioted in Paris in 1913 when Stravinsky's first performance of "Rite of Spring" played. Rioted in the streets. BALLET fans, mind you... if there was ever a high-brow crowd, it's ballet fans.

Folks have been throwing tomatoes at the stage since the dawn of entertainment. No quantity of editorials or blog rants will change that truth. Creators have to learn to deal with it the way they always have -- take your shots and move on to the next project.

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PoopsMcGee
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:00:03 PM

Well said.

No use whining about whiners...

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Beamboom
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:34:10 PM

Good post, Shaman. Interesting point.

Last edited by Beamboom on 10/8/2012 12:34:34 PM

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556pineapple
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:39:04 PM

I agree. There have been riots at ballets, theaters, and operas for hundreds of years. Hector Berlioz's Benvenuto Cellini was met with riots and anger, and even the musicians performing it said it was impossible to play. It even continues to this day, albeit in larger scope on a smaller scale. Whenever a veteran band releases a new album with an altered sound or style from before, fans get all ticked off. The difference we see is that in every case, except BioWare's, the creators did not re-do or amend their work to appease their fans. They held their ground and said take it or leave it. I'm afraid that BioWare has now set a precedent that reinforces the selfish ideals of this already entitled generation.

We need more people like Pachter to shamelessly tell people how it is. It may not change society at a whole, but maybe it will at least open a few eyes.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:56:35 PM

You make no point, my friend. None whatsoever. Just because the riots and the tomatoes happened doesn't make it okay. The riots weren't okay. Such hostile, violent, and immature reactions - regardless of the crowd in question - aren't okay.

War is something that happens all the time in history, too. Doesn't mean it's okay.

Edit: I would like to add that I'll bet every penny I own that I could dig up newspaper editorials reacting to behavior of those ballet fans, and I guarantee the writers would call out such reprehensible behavior as journalists correctly did with the ME3 fiasco.

There's only one proper response to any of that- Grow the fu** up.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 10/8/2012 1:10:46 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:11:10 PM

Thank you Shaman, my response to Pachter and those who think people that expect what was promised them for their money are somehow "entitled" need to grow up and get over themselves.

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Comic Shaman
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:55:47 PM

You're correct, Ben, that it doesn't make it okay. I am 100% with you on that.

What I am saying is that from a creator's perspective, you have a choice at how to handle it. I speak from experience. I have been on the receiving end of inappropriate, whiny feedback from people who didn't give a rat's ass that I put my heart into my work.

From the creator's perspective, you have a choice. You can stick with it, or you can pack it in. Because right or wrong, you ain't changing fans.

If Patcher is right and Muzyka and Zeschuk really did quit over fan feedback, then I don't have a whole lot of respect for that decision. I think Patcher is probably wrong, though... it has been known to happen.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:02:55 PM

I understand that. But if the fans have every right to be disappointed, the creators have every right to be disappointed in the way those fans expressed their dislike. If the creators feel like they're only catering to a bunch of ungracious children, I can see them becoming awfully disillusioned with the whole thing.

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Beamboom
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:09:03 PM

It's not a question if one have a *right* or not.
Shamans entire point, at least how I understand it, was only that it's how fans always have behaved and as an artist you just have to be prepared to tackle it, rightfully or not. Only that.
And I think that is a pragmatic but good point.

Does it justify anything? Nope. And it's not like I disagree with your sentiment, Ben. As a Bioware fan I find this whole story to be really painful. But Shaman did put it into an interesting perspective, at least for me. :)


Last edited by Beamboom on 10/8/2012 2:30:08 PM

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xenris
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:36:33 PM

I had people complain about fight scenes I choreographed for theatre after I was praised for making their Hamlet fights unforgetable. I mean its not the same but yeah it sucks having people say your prior work was better but you know what. I looked at videos and realised wow what was I thinking.

As a game developer you have to be able to be humble enough to take both criticism and praise, just like any creator does.

Here is the thing and its my only problem with the whole ME3 thing. The doctors, casey hudson, and others FLAT OUT LIED about what ME3 was going to be. It was a bunch of PR nonsense. So passionate fans got upset, and some overly zealous fans got a little too worked up with threats etc.

I'm not saying the threats were justified or anything like that. All I'm saying was the huge disappointment with long time fans definitely was and not everyone who was pissed exploded with rage.

I'm not mad at the devs in this case I'm mad at EA, because the obvious influence they had on ME2 and ME3 from ME1 is obvious and people who haven't played it will soon discover what I'm talking about. Or not but the fact is people loved ME1 for being a space opera RPG with slight shooter mechanics, and were really upset when it got flipped around with the sequels.

I am pretty sure the doctors left because they are tired of the industry and EA. The drop in quality from Dragon Age 1 to 2, and ME1 to 2 is pretty obvious to old bioware fans.

I mean I remember fans complaining about things with baldurs gate games. Your going to get complaints and leaving the industry because of something that has happening forever is suspicious. Either the doctors have no spine to deal with criticism or and much more likely they were sick of EA getting their hands in their creative process.

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Akuma07
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:20:55 PM

One thing people don't seem to take into account, is that modern society now has a cancer, it goes by the name "Trolls".

There are people who live their entire lives now trolling the internet. Look at 9gag for example? These people are pathetic losers, the kind who are probably worthless pieces of crap in real life, so they take their anger out from behind a keyboard, they consider themselves keyboard warriors.

I need not rant any further on the topic, we have all had our taste of them.

The point I am trying to make is that whenever we see a bunch of people complaining about something (such as ME3) there is no way to know how many of those people actually do feel that way, or whether they are just jumping on board to be a part of the crowd, or just for the fun of being trolls.

Everyone needs to remember that, taking community feedback into account is one thing, and sure they have every reason to be disapointed at the communitys hatred, but they should not have taken it to heart so much.

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Jawknee
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 11:54:26 AM
Reply

LOL!

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Vivi_Gamer
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:14:40 PM
Reply

I would like to shake this mans hand. The revolt against the Mass Effect 3 was down right appalling. Fan's quite simply do now have the right to bully developers into tweaking a games story to there needs. If there was a massive flaw in the gameplay I might even accept that. For instance if there was a game full of bugs, the developers serve it. But to complain at the story arch is just wrong.

The problem is the internet has given the public a voice and because of this they abuse it. A bunch of 'fans' who have no experience within the industry should have no control what-so-ever on the development of a game. They didn't go through the education and training all the development teams have gone through to be a part of it. They should not be criticized by a bunch of lazy, loud mouths.

But it's not just unfair on the developers. I have to say it really makes me embarrassed to be a part of the gaming community. I do not want to be a part of a culture that whines and moans. While I like a lot of the people on this site, you look at the comment sections on all the IGN topics and it really is embarrassing, they just go on senseless tirades or post irrelevant points all the time. I'm not saying all the gaming community is like this... but it does seem like a majority unfortunately.

I still never understood how this was a bigger issue than PS3 owners never getting to experience the 1st game. To me that was a much bigger issue, I cannot just start as series from the 2nd game, especially a heavily story driven game like Mass Effect. But everyone else seemed to look past that, so I am even more surprised on how they brought this issue up, at least my complaint was genuine and not just being an immature loud mouth who thinks they can control everything in life.

To me this is one of the worst moments in history for gaming. I will forever look upon this series and the majority of it's fans as spoilt.

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Highlander
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:38:10 PM
Reply

I don't get this at all. The folks behind the games should not be punished because a vocal minority get's their kicks trolling the Internet about their annoyance over some aspect of a game that they feel is wrong. Game makers need to stand up for the artistic integrity of their games and ignore the ramblings of the Internet hive mind - aka "The Eye of Mauron" to it's own devices.

Burnout Paradise fell victim to this. The guys at Criterion got into trouble with EA because their vision for their game ignited whiny gamers across the internet, and those whiners made noise that was far greater than their numbers would lead you to expect. Burnout Paradise was made easier and 'dumbed down' as a result. NFS Most Wanted looks like all the 'lessons' of that experience have been taken on board with all cars being available from the start instead of you having to earn them as you go.

Now, I don't have a problem with gamers complaining about the lack of support for a game, or the cynical provision of DLC that's already on the disc waiting to be unlocked. There are good consumer rights reasons for those complaints. But whining about a game being too hard, or that someone that plays it for 200 hours has a car you don't have on day 1, or because you don't like the ending, or because the character's boobs aren't big enough (or are too big), etc... That's just whining and game makers should ignore it completely.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 12:57:26 PM

Absolutely. Just ignore the few idiots and move on. Bowing to whining is beneath the guys at BioWare so I HOPE that isn't why they left.

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Vivi_Gamer
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:21:50 PM

It was a bit more than simply whining though, there were campaigns and even charities rising against them, because of the internet 'fans' revolted against them very strongly. The internet gives any senseless moron a voice where they raise their opinions like they rule the world. It reminds me of that scene in Annie Hall where Woody has the snobbish film lecture behind him rambling on screaming his opinions in everyone's ear only multiplied beyond millions.

I cannot blame Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk at all for leaving. I have tremendous sympathy as they did not deserve the backlash they got one bit.

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Underdog15
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:33:43 PM

I dunno, Ultima... I don't think excessive whining somehow graduates into a higher form. It's just tenacious whining.

On the other hand, I do think from the sounds of it when it happened, that Bioware did briefly lose sight or forget exactly what it was they promised people. In hindsight, it would have been better to just not have promised anything. That was a logistical error on their part. It's hard not to expect a backlash in those situations.

The hype-monster is what's to blame. Too many details and promises before release is never a good idea. Case in point....

If I created the game, I'd first be ticked at the PR staff who hyped and helped promise a tall order. (Look back... those promises are pretty steep for the technology involved!) Second, I'd be ticked in general that no one could appreciate work I am clearly proud of. I'd feel like quitting too. I probably wouldn't, but I'd definitely sulk for a month or so. lol

Eh, I dunno. I'm torn between the two camps. They both have legitimate points. Fans definitely over-reacted, as I'm fairly certain it was not a bad game. But Bioware clearly bit off more than they could chew with their adverts. That was an oversight. Perhaps a bit too prideful.

Of course... putting myself in ME fans shoes... FFXIII-2 has a shitty ending as well... even with the secret ending and all paradox endings.... I felt ripped off, too.

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Killa Tequilla
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:42:15 PM

Highlander, you have to understand that some of these developers, with their sweat, blood and tears work very hard to get these games out on due date. Who knows how hard they had to work or if they even slept. Heck, I myself would have left after having put hard work into something just so no one can appreciate the final product.

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Highlander
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:16:25 PM

Killa, I completely understand the hard work that they put in and have great sympathy for the way they must surely feel when the voices of 5000 anonymous Internet critics are whining in their ears like a chorus of Harpies. I just think that at the end of the day, you kind of have to expect that reception now, and ignore it. Otherwise you may as well give up artistic vision and make games by committee and focus group.

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:25:01 PM

Guess sometimes, it's not the consoles or any hardware or software that's limiting the developers potential.

Sometimes it's the fans.

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pillz81
Thursday, October 11, 2012 @ 5:15:31 PM

And many times, it is the publisher that is limiting the developers potential.

Kowtowing is kowtowing. Whether it is EA putting pressure on the devs to change this or that of a game, or the whiney little girly men, using outcry to force the dev to "make amends" to them.

I guess who, what and the way you put pressure on the devs matters as well.

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ace_boon_coon
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:09:29 PM
Reply

I agree sometimes things get out of hand, but fans should have the right to voice their opinion especially if they're spending their hard earned cash. Real fans should not have to deal with games that are dumbed down way too much. RE6 is the latest example.

Last edited by ace_boon_coon on 10/8/2012 1:10:44 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:12:23 PM

Damn right.

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SirLoin of Beef
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:21:42 PM

Indeed. Players should be able to voice concerns about the games they're paying for. However, from the things I've read over at the BSN (BioWare's community site), a number of people went too far with their rantings, etc.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:24:16 PM

I understand, but when lunatics take it too far and start sending in death threats, it's up to the adults in the room to rise above it and not get dragged into the gutter.

My big question regarding all this: "WHO ARE THE PROFESSIONALS HERE?"

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:42:41 PM

You can always voice your opinion. Death threats, boycotts, and freaking out with offensive, childish rants is not how you voice a mature opinion.

Nobody ever had any issue with gamers expressing their displeasure. I never once said they weren't allowed to do that. What people had a problem with was HOW they went about expressing that displeasure.

In a word and to repeat- Embarrassing.

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:26:37 PM

Voicing their opinion is one thing though.

But ME3 had it's reputation and popularity smacked with dirt just because some people simply point out that it's a bad game when it's not.

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jdt1981
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:39:51 PM

I'm glad you clarified that Ben because after reading this article I mistakenly got the impression that you were calling out ALL Mass Effect fans who expressed disappointment over ME3.

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oldmike
Tuesday, October 09, 2012 @ 7:30:59 PM

so you think boycotts are childish?
Here i was thinking that not giving them your cash was the only way to make a change

its the same with Fable 3 dont lie to me and think i will buy your games

they let me down with DA2 then ME3 with the endings they shipped with were a joke filled with plot holes and massive logic flaws

you can tell the guy that made the ending was not the same guy that did the rest of the games

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ace_boon_coon
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:15:37 PM
Reply

If the guys can't take the criticism then they need to leave the indusrty all together. Bioware was good until they joined EA. Bioware is still good, but their gaes aren't as good pre EA.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:19:01 PM
Reply

He has no evidence; it's more likely they are just done with ME and want to move on.

BUT, if so, then GOOD. These guys ran the RPG out of Mass Effect and out of Dragon Age so they gotta go anyway. Games won't be the same? GOOD

Now, as far as the whining thing goes it has nothing to do with entitlement. This is a product that people pay for, the creators made claims. It's no different from when the ET game was lambasted except everyone has a voice now.

Creators can't be MADE to do anything, Ninja Theory isn't changing Dante back are they? Resident Evil isn't going back to horror is it?
Final Fantasy won't be good again will it?

Customers just tell what they want, that's it. They have that right, so get over it Pachter.

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Underdog15
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:35:14 PM

truth. For all those games mentioned.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:43:23 PM

See my post above. Having the right to express vs. how you express is it the point.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:02:10 PM

Until we are willing to crack down on freedom of speech, yes even stupid speech, we don't get to decide how people respond.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:03:26 PM

I didn't say we do. I said we can certainly decide on what's appropriate and mature and what's not.

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Beamboom
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:20:15 PM

... But was it these guys who thinned out the RPG out of those games? Or was those decisions made further down in the chain, while these guys focused on the main arc, story and characters?

I don't know, but I would guess the latter. But we'll see in time, what happens without these guys at the helm.


Last edited by Beamboom on 10/8/2012 2:21:17 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:36:32 PM

I'm not sure we'll ever know the correct answer to that, Beamboom. :)

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BikerSaint
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:37:27 PM

World,

I'm not taking sides here, but some of the high-ups still at Bioware have also said that it was the reason both Bioware bosses left, so that's where Pac-man got his thinking from.

Also that they've both left the whole gaming scene for good, & are now intent on moving to other endeavors that aren't gaming-related.

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Beamboom
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:09:23 PM

It will be incredibly interesting to see the next few Bioware games in these regards. I know what I hope, but don't know what to expect, at all.

Last edited by Beamboom on 10/8/2012 3:11:53 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:11:12 PM

Okay, if that's the case then good riddance, there are dozens of talented people that are much more grown up who would like to have that job.

People complain about you screwing up? "Oh I'm taking my toys and going home!" Seriously? Come on.

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Akuma07
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:34:22 PM

The unfortunate thing about this is that none of us are really qualified to sit here and say that they were wrong for leaving BioWare for this reason. None of us have been in a situation where a AAA million dollar project you just spent a long time working on has been released and received death threats and the like because of it.

And if you have, then shame on you for being so disrespectful.

It is all well and good us sitting here complaining about them because they aren't mature enough to say "Okay, here is another death threat, no worries, what is next on the list?" Like seriously, you have no idea the kind of psychological toll that can take on a person until you have experienced it.

By sitting here whining about them leaving because they couldn't take the whining, makes us just as bad as the people who whined in the first place.

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pillz81
Thursday, October 11, 2012 @ 5:22:33 PM

"By sitting here whining about them leaving because they couldn't take the whining, makes us just as bad as the people who whined in the first place."

Well look at this: Pots and kettles banging together.

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tes37
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 1:27:05 PM
Reply

I don't agree with Pachter. His reasoning sounds just as childish as the backlash from the fans. No amount of whining will get me to walk away from my passion. I hope Muzyka and Zeschuk's departure was for other reasons.

I'd be afraid to hire someone who just ups and leaves when the pressure gets a little heavy. They should be better than that.

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RICHIECOQUI
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:02:57 PM
Reply

This remind me when mafia 2 came out the fanboys started "Whining" that the grass on the ps3 verison of the game was not green!! Or the childish console war " the xbox 360 is more powerful then the ps3!!" WHO CARES!!

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:13:48 PM

It doesn't remind me of those things at all.

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CaptRon
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:22:05 PM
Reply

Quite frankly if you make a sh*tty game you should be made aware of it. People have the right to complain. I think ME was garbage from the beginning and I don't give a damn about Bioware.. But if you can't handle critisism then get out of the business.

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Akuma07
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:38:39 PM

Can you handle death threats?

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maxpontiac
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:29:09 PM
Reply

I can sum this up with three words PSXE.

The Internet Sucks.

It has provided a platform for the entitled people to stand on a soap box and yell

"ME-ME-ME-ME!!!"

Well, sorry, that is more than three words.

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556pineapple
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:41:05 PM

The internet is simply a conduit for people to show their true selves with the protection of anonymity. The internet is the way it is because of the true problem: human nature.

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BikerSaint
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 2:53:34 PM
Reply

Gamers DO have the right to sensible complaining.

But I certainly don't agree with the complainers that went overboard with their ragehate, like making those death threats & turning Bioware into the BBB for fraud.

BTW, I "think" the complaints were also misguided as to who they were also directed to.

I believe Bioware was the wrong place & the wrong target, and that it should've been directed at EA, as EA probably forced Bioware's hand into rushing out a product that didn't include ending choices for all the prior actions gamers had earlier in the ME franchise.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:13:55 PM
Reply

Let's say there was a groundswell of thoughtful fan reaction that said, moreover, "Well I disagree with that non-ending, it didn't deliver on the promises made and overall didn't make any sense when the whole trilogy is taken into account."

Would there have been any attempt at all to fix it?

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GuardianMode
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:34:59 PM

I dont think they can fix the ending. Its pretty much set in stone. Its not that I disliked how the game finished,its the feeling of "What the! Is that it?"...

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:47:09 PM

They already released a free DLC pack with some extra ending stuff.

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oldmike
Tuesday, October 09, 2012 @ 7:40:50 PM

they did try to fix it have to say the blue ending is kind of cool
but none of the ending seem to fit the story
its like some new guy came and made the ending as it did not fit

still love how some say it was a art full ending as its the same as a game SE put out one year before and was done better

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Bevel
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 3:37:55 PM
Reply

"The riots weren't okay. Such hostile, violent, and immature reactions - regardless of the crowd in question - aren't okay.

War is something that happens all the time in history, too. Doesn't mean it's okay." -Ben Dukta

I would like to point you that you have tried to draw a parallel between a fan response to a video game, and an event which has geopolitical implications, destabilizes markets and tears families apart. There's a name for this kind of hyperbole, Godwin's law. And what is the conclusion that we should draw from your parallel? You haven't made an argument for why there is something fundamentally harmful about this kind of reaction because Comic Shaman has pointed out that it's been going on for centuries, and yet people still create art. All your post accomplishes is to say that you, and other people are unhappy. You've provided no insight in to the implications for future occurrences of this "fan outrage", and no clarity regarding what might solve the problem. What your post amounts to is a justification for your frustration at the frustrated fans, and the same goes for Pachter.

In the end, what is the difference between you and the people who were responsible for the ME3 debacle except the target of your raw frustration?

Looking at history you will find that classics stand on their own, without the help of PR departments and in spite of whatever controversy surrounded them at the time of their conception. ME3 doesn't need anyone to defend it if it's good. (I don't think it is)

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Highlander
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 4:07:42 PM

Not sure that is a correct use of Godwin's law. Godwin is about the invocation of a specific element from a specific power that participated in a specific conflict in a pointless and gratuitous comparison that makes no contribution to the discussion. Unless I missed something, Ben didn't do that. Mere hyperbole and exaggeration are not traditionally what Godwin's law is about, if they were, one would never cease citing the 'law'. Godwin is about a specific over the top hyperbolic comparison that people use when losing an argument. Oddly enough, invoking Godwin invalidly is also considered an automatic loss of the argument. :P

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 4:12:38 PM

Implying that I reacted to the fans the same way the fans reacted to BioWare is insulting. Furthermore, rational individuals don't need to justify themselves for calling into question the irrational behavior of others. No, they don't.

I also never defended ME3, nor did anyone who called out the fans for reacting like children. Nobody said BioWare was in the right, nobody said they didn't at least in part falsely advertise their product.

Immaturity and stupidity on any scale, whether it be reactions to a video game or violent reactions to political or religious conflict (i.e., war), should - and thankfully will be - always called out by those who don't appreciate such embarrassment to humanity.

Maybe you'll realize that your post is the only thing seeking justification. If I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to defend what you're defending.

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Bevel
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:00:30 PM

@Ben:
You called Shaman 'friend' after stating blankly that his point was nonexistent.

The argument you proceeded to make did not back this statement up.

You called in to question the "rightness" of the people who reacted strongly to the ME3 endings. However, that didn't invalidate his point because his point had nothing to do with the morality of rioting fans. As such, your post just ended up being a statement of your own opinions on the matter, disguised as a response. That's what I was saying earlier.

So to put it simply,
Person A: "Fans have always overreacted"
Person B: "You have no point. Fans overreacting is wrong"

As you can see, person B has not addressed Person A's point even though he is calling it wrong. When you said that wars were wrong you just added another thing you disagree with, without justifying your original challenge.

This is how your post is no more meaningful than a frustrated fan. If the Fan argues about promises which weren't delivered, he has a point. If he just says he doesn't like the game, It's just his opinion.

For the record, I don't agree with the fan response to ME3's endings either.

EDIT:@TheHighlander
You're right that I had an overly liberal intepretation of Godwin's law. Sorry about that.

Last edited by Bevel on 10/8/2012 5:01:54 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:11:05 PM

I'm not interested in going in circles. I have no reason to defend anything I've said about the matter, because I stand behind it and it doesn't require repeating.

The point was initially irrelevant because saying something just "always happens" doesn't mean anything to me, nor does it justify what happened. That's what I was pointing out. It had nothing to do with me, so stop trying to make it sound like I was attempting to defend myself.

I have no reason to. People reacted immaturely. It was embarrassing. Those are facts, and they don't change, regardless of what rationale one chooses to use.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 10/8/2012 5:11:29 PM

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Comic Shaman
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:34:42 PM

I can be friends with someone who disagrees with me. I'd better be able to, or I'd be in pretty sorry shape.

My point was never to justify fan behavior or to suggest rudeness should go unopposed. I was looking at the behavior of Muzyka and Zeschuk as creators, or at least of Patcher's (possibly dubious) interpretation. It would be a wonderful world if people could always conduct themselves like reasonable human beings. Until that happens, though, a creator has to deal with the reality of absurdly rude fans.

Creators take flak. Look at George Lucas... that dude has absorbed unbelievable quantities of rage his way. Whether I agree with a given criticism of Lucas or not, I respect the fact that he doesn't pack it in. Same goes true for practically any successful creator you care to name.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:52:49 PM

Right. You don't see Lucas going "F these crazy Star Wars fans!"

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:57:26 PM

It's easy to put up with fan rage when you just so happen to pilot one of the most popular franchises on the planet. Lucas can just roll himself up in his money and tell everyone to go screw themselves. ;)

I think it's quite within the rights of creators to feel more than a little slighted when they're getting death threats.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:29:55 PM

I like to think you aren't doing your job right until you get a death threat or two :)

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:54:19 PM

That's only because by then, you usually have enough fans to piss at least one person off to the point of insanity. ;)

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:12:20 PM
Reply

You think you have the right to whine just because you don't like certain part of the game?
Think you can do a better job?
Think you're qualified for it?
The game doesn't suck but you hate one part of it and you whine?
You think you're doing the industry a greater good by whining?
And you dare call yourself a gamer?

Immature and childish can't even describe.........

Last edited by Snaaaake on 10/8/2012 5:13:30 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:59:30 PM

- As the consumer, yep. I didn't like Douche Cole McGrath.
- Yeah I can do better, change him back.
- As the demographic I am qualified to bring him back.
- You're damn right.
- Cole was returned and everything turned out best for all parties involved.
- You're damn right again.

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:06:03 PM

Well, after reading my post again, realised I should have been clearer and forgot a few important points. I apologize for it.

ME3 was labelled a "bad" game by many and a lot of more dogs*** abuse was thrown at it. That's not a proper way of voicing your opinion.
Not the way to behave as the consumer.

The Cole transformation certainly didn't get too much insult to the point people are accusing it of being a bad game, it only generated negative feedback and the developers certainly took it with open arm.
Not ME3, those fans hurt Bioware's feelings.

It's two different things World, it's two different things.

Last edited by Snaaaake on 10/8/2012 6:11:28 PM

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jdt1981
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:47:28 PM
Reply

It's ok to voice your disappointment with a game or any art but some ME fans crossed the line over ME3. I too was disappointed with the ending in ME3 but I didn't troll the Bioware forums threatening boycotts, insult the developers or make any demands, I simply moved on...

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:06:33 PM

Well said mate.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:56:23 PM
Reply

People are always going to cross the line, yeah as a creative guy it hurts like a sonofabitch but you need thicker skin; you've got to consider the source. Gaming is far from unique in this respect.

I'd rather there be overboard outcry and rage than quiet acceptance of the destruction of what we love. I only wish my fellow Final Fantasy fans had the balls to do what the ME fans did.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 5:58:13 PM

I will never want to be part of any group that acts that way. Sorry. I grew up too long ago.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:06:15 PM

Like it or not, you already are part of many groups including video game journalists as a whole. Sometimes the fringe accomplishes things that centrists can't.

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:08:11 PM

They're really just a bunch of kids dreaming of becoming keyboard warriors...........

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:25:38 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing they've accomplished is to make me even more hesitant to admit to other journalists which field I'm in.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:30:20 PM

Exactly.

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Akuma07
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 6:35:54 PM

The people who consider themselves keyboard warriors, are people who are pathetic in real life, they would rather stroke their e-peen all day long then go outside and get a life.

They are worthless excuses for human beings and should not be allowed to live outside a box.

Last edited by Akuma07 on 10/8/2012 6:36:08 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 7:00:25 PM

I disagree, I think everyone should be able to live the life they choose to live.

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Snaaaake
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 7:19:07 PM

Well, as much as I hate those kind of people, I feel that you're a bit.......too harsh with that comment akuma.......

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YashaZz
Tuesday, October 09, 2012 @ 7:46:51 AM

Even though Akuma said it in a rough manner, it's the absolute truth. What a pity.

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FxTales
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 9:16:54 PM
Reply

Our university had talks from various people from the design industry. One was a concept artist from Weta and he made the point that you have to get used to your work being turned down, criticised and to overall just expect that you will fail more than you will succeed.

If you're not cut out for the industry then you shouldn't be there. However I can totally acknowledge that they took a very brutal and public criticism of ME3. I wouldn't have been able to deal with it either.

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Raze22
Monday, October 08, 2012 @ 11:03:39 PM
Reply

I find it funny. What a coincidence it happen this year as well. Whining now equals constructive criticism? If they left because of that. Good riddance. Constructive criticism has made even the best in history grow stronger and over come. I though am not in favor of people being mean about it either. Key words constructive, not douchebag.

I also believe most of those fans would not have responded as they did if ME3 was made as it was originally intended and didn't have so much money hungry involvement. Btw, it wasn't because of the fan out lash. It was more than likely them making decisions they didn't want to make.

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___________
Tuesday, October 09, 2012 @ 4:24:31 AM
Reply

oh god this moron pisses me off!
the DRs have been in the industry for half their freaking life, as if their going to throw away their career just because of the backlash ME3 rightly recieved!
this isent their first tango, this is not the first time they had fire lit under their feet.
im sorry but if you leave your life passion just because of fan backlash you seriously need to have a look at why your where you are, and seriously grow some f*cking balls!

they much more likely left because of the stranglehold EA is putting on the studio.
the flop of star wars, a game said to be the highest budget game in history!
and its been a MASSIVE flop!
so you can only imagine the words EA had with them.
EA owning bioware is the biggest injustice since M$ bought out rare, and $ony sold off crash and spyro!

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YashaZz
Tuesday, October 09, 2012 @ 7:44:42 AM
Reply

Wow, I've just fell in love with Mass Effect, and this happens.

Thank you, kind gamers, this really did it for me...

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SmokeyPSD
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 @ 1:57:28 AM
Reply

Hang on. Key creative minds had already left before Mass Effect 3. This is how this all started...

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Id00urmomma
Thursday, October 11, 2012 @ 1:54:49 PM
Reply

Sorry but you make video games, the players are mostly children, under 20, and you make games that are suppose to be top notch and the best possible, so get over your "creative" selves.
YOU ARE IN A BUSINESS TO PLEASE YOUR CUSTOMERS. That is your only job in America to kiss butt and make some money, period, I don't like it, no one does, but don't call your customers whiners. That is just as, if not more childish and stupid because that is biting the hand that feeds you. People have a right to make their own product, but they also have the right to criticize and condemn a bad product or a bad business decision too.
Make a good real product that people want or get the f out of this business in the first place, because there are way too many half-good games that long forgotten companies have made, and very very few great ones that deserve to be in history books...

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