Don't Worry, Lightning Return's Story Will Actually Be Complete

Oxvial
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 1:39:46 PM
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''Lightning Return'' Return? more like when she gonna leave? shes always there I'm tired of her.

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Ultimadesires
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 1:54:34 PM
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So does that mean this game wont have multiple endings, I was under the impression it would due to how open they are trying to make.

I bought the XIII-2 character DLC when it was half Price - I have still yet to even play the Lightning DLC so I guess I haven't seen the real ending. Is This game stated to be early next year I have only ever seen 2013 on the adds.

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Nas Is Like
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 1:56:29 PM
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I'm not worried. Frankly, I couldn't care less anymore.

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Lawless SXE
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 2:03:58 PM
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I couldn't even finish XIII-2. Those dragons suddenly appearing was like WTF?! But it's a good thing that the next one is actually finished. Does that mean no DLC though? Or will the DLC add in a party or give you control of different characters? 'Cos, come on, it's going to have DLC.

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Ultimadesires
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 2:14:16 PM

Ugh I really wish it didn't have DLC :(... but you're probably right... XIII-2 felt utterly chain up due to having DLC in that coliseum - Just look at VI, VIII & X they all had similar coliseums and they didn't charge extra... In my eye DLC is the biggest downfall of grace within the industry this generation.

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Oxvial
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 2:19:49 PM

''look at VI, VIII & X they all had similar coliseums and they didn't charge extra''

Just imagine especially on VI(Snes version) if they charged extra gamers would go nuts xD

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 4:41:33 PM

What dragons?

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Underdog15
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:36:48 PM

I think I know what Dragon's Ben. Caius' dragons. And he probably picked a bad spot to quit on the game. ;p

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Lawless SXE
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:38:59 AM

Yeah, those damn things that appeared once you beat Caius. I quit because I tried about twenty times to beat them, taking well over two hours and eventually just gave up. Mind you, it's probably the last battle of the game's campaign, but it got to me...

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Underdog15
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:24:19 PM

You know those odin weapons or whatever you get? They power up with the more artifacts you find. Find more artifacts, and those weapons improve. Another option is to find a better monster. In the Steepe, throw the moogle at some flowers a little north of the camp. With a little running around, you'll see some flowers nearby that have little (pyreflies??) floating around. Throw moogle at it, and you get a pretty sick monster.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 2:32:15 PM
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SE lives in a peculiar bubble, here in the real world people don't like it when you make them pay to see the ending of the game. For some reason they needed that proved to them in order not to do it this time?

Now they gave Light a terrible outfit so you'd have to buy her a new one via DLC. Seriously who are these people?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 4:44:11 PM

Square Enix is secretly run by chimps who toss darts at charts with potential answers on them.

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 3:10:20 PM
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I can only imagine the kind of meltdown you had with Dirge of Cerberus, Ben.

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Underdog15
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 4:14:20 PM

Different circumstances.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 4:42:57 PM

Very different. It was a spinoff, it was marketed as a spinoff, and it didn't stop them from putting out FFX, FFX-2 and FFXII, which were all amazing in their own way, and in their own way preserved the greatness of the franchise.

Now we're supposed to believe Lightning Returns is actually NOT a spinoff and part of the series...? And we have nothing else to fall back on? The core of Final Fantasy is dying or dead...

No, the meltdown is NOW. ;)

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 12/27/2012 4:43:13 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:22:23 PM

Tossing up Dirge of Cerberus is a straw man, it's not the same as what is happening now.

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:34:23 PM

@Ben:

Nah. I think you overeact about everything Square-Enix. Yes, it's true that this gen has been really average at best when it comes to S-E's games. That FF XIII's series was a disappointment on many levels, and that they had a really difficult time giving fans any games to keep their appetite satiated.

Yet, FF XII was a great game by almost every standards (maybe you didn't like the change in the battle system... I don't know. I personally enjoyed it greatly. And wish the Gambit system would be brought back in some form when Ito gets at the helm of an other FF).

XIV was a really big flop on just about every levels, and S-E couldn't let it die, due to pride and the legacy of the series. So it halted the productions of other titles.

That being said, I don't see all this doom and gloom that you're so obstinately spreading everytime you can. For me, it's only a single gen, in fact, 2 titles, that weren't up to par with the rest of the series.

For all we know, Versus could turn up being the best in the series since VI or whatever title you think is the epitome of the series so far.

Lightning Returns could also be a really good game. While not necessarily a spin off, The game isn't called Final Fantasy XIII-3. So you take it however way you want.

My problem with your approach here is that you condemn a title before you actually got the chance to play it. At your age, you're still building incredibly emotional expectations and get into the products with biased preconceptions and expectations. "This has this title, so it has to be this, this and that. Or else it's shit."

While I understand where you are coming from, and to some degree share you concerns, I believe having a more optimistic and open-minded approach to each products I get my hands on help in discovering new play and game styles.

Every titles in the Final Fantasy series has been different. Yeah, this gen they tried to shake things up a lot, made some mistakes, did some things right, adjusted some... What I saw is that they've at least tried to evolve their gameplay, even if they didn't get the result, critically, that they wished for.

I'd rather have a company like S-E, willing to get out of their comfort zone, than getting the same shit year after year, with a different coating, like CoD does.

Give them time, and I'm sure they'll get back on their feet. After they finally cement the direction in which everyone, them and the fans, agree the series should take in the foreseeable future.

Last edited by Hynad on 12/27/2012 5:39:09 PM

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Underdog15
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:43:40 PM

Well, Hynad, aside from being very condescending, I think you misunderstand that you actually agree with Ben more than you realize. (He agrees 14 was a flop, and he would agree 12 was amazing. At least, that's what I've read him say.)

But it's not like Lightning Returns is just a spin off. It completes the story of the first two. So it's in no way like Dirge of Cerberus. FFVII did finish it's own story. The two really are not comparable.

And it goes beyond 1 or 2 titles. Look at Front Mission, Kingdom Hearts, and the Dragon Quest series, for a starting point. The first was a flop, and the latter two are handheld games. Hardly full and complete entries. Additionally, Versus 13 has become vaporware, and the things the company says about the franchise in general is concerning. (They don't seem to have any direction of any kind) And don't write off 14's failure as if it's separate from this generation.

SE has done well in SOME other games, but there's a reason they continue to post losses year in and year out. While there may be a glimmer of hope from time to time, they simply are a company floundering and making up losses on the success of the past.

The facts of the matter indicate that concern is not "overblown", and analyzing these facts and feeling rather grim about it all is hardly indicative of a juvenile mindset. In fact, it's probably insulting, and ironically, less thought out. :(

Last edited by Underdog15 on 12/27/2012 5:43:56 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:05:25 PM

Well Hynad, just about everything you said there is wrong. I mean, dead flat wrong...sounds like you know nothing about me, nor have you read anything I've even written in the past about Final Fantasy, so I'll break this down nice and simple for you.

1. FFXIII wasn't even that much of a disappointment to me, as I gave it an 8.6 and personally invested 120 hours into it. I said it was a step back for the series but that's about it, and you agree with that, anyway.

2. I loved FFXII. I've always said I loved FFXII.

3. I don't spread doom and gloom. I also never said Lightning Returns couldn't be good. In fact, I've said multiple times that it could be great. It just isn't a Final Fantasy title. I've never condemned it from any other viewpoint.

4. Every title in FF has been different. You're right. But they've also all been RPGs with core mechanics in common. That only differed significantly in FFXII, which was still very much an RPG in every sense of the term. There is nothing "role-playing" about Lightning Returns, as far as I or anyone else can tell, and it is NOT a spinoff like Dirge of Cerberus; it's a major franchise entry.

That's a problem, my friend. That's why everyone is annoyed. You can't honestly believe I'm the only one. I have no biased preconceptions nor am I emotional. I'm simply basing what I see now on what we once had, as everyone does.

If you wish to turn a blind eye to that, feel free. I can't really bring myself to adopt that head-in-the-sand mentality.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 12/27/2012 6:06:31 PM

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:08:27 PM

I agree that S-E has under-delivered this gen. But I'm also willing to believe the reason they state why.

I have no reason not to believe them. Versus isn't vaporware. Its development has been slowed down due to FF XIV's struggles. That's the reason they gave, and I don't have a reason not to believe it.

I wish they had done better this gen. That FF XIII's development would have gone smoother, and that the final game had included more of what they originally had in mind.

Yet, I don't think XIII and its sequel are bad games at all. In fact, compared to most other games, it fares quite exceptionally well, design and gameplay wise. That being said, I do agree that XIII's series isn't up to par with the best in the series (IV-VI-VII-VIII-IX and XII). Even if I do prefer XIII over X on most accounts.

S-E is almost done with fixing XIV. So work on Versus should finally continue full steam ahead. They have to, because this gen can only drag for so long, from now on.

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:34:11 PM

@Ben: I didn't mention XII to mean that you didn't like it. I mentioned it because, to me, it was a really great FF title. My argument being that XIII and it's sequels, are just a small number of games. The XIII series isn't representative of where the series is going.

So:

- XII: a great Final Fantasy title

- XIII: a great game, but not a great Final Fantasy title

- XIII-2: A good game that fixes a lot of the problem that were present in XIII, while not elevating itself enough to be a great Final Fantasy game.

- Lightning Returns: Can't comment yet. Haven't played it. I'm intrigued but not hyped.

- FF XIV: Originally pretty bad. But they brought a good director with a good track record to fix it up. Preserving final judgement until I play A Realm Reborn.

So yeah. So far, Square-Enix didn't deliver the greatness that we got from XII and many titles before it. They still provided good experiences in their own right.

You say I have my head in the sand... because I'm optimistic? Because I'm not stuck in nostalgia?

Because I take a wait and see/actually play and then judge approach?

It's the way you condemn the products before playing them that have me say you're spreading doom and gloom.

I specifically stated that I agree that the Final Fantasy series have seen better days. But it's the way you word your opinions about it all that makes it seems like you're so bitter and emotional about all this. You sound unreasonably harsh everytime you write about them, and don't seem to be willing to give them the benefit of doubt. Only because of what? 2 games? XIII and XIII-2? I'm not counting XIV, since you don't even give a damn about online games.

In any case, I don't share you pessimism about the series. Even if the last few games didn't live up to the greatness of the series' legacy.

It happened in the past. Not for an entire gen, but it did happen. And they got back on track. It's just taking them a bit longer this time.

As I said, Ito will be back at the helm. He never made a bad game so far. And of course, Versus is bound to finally happen.

Last edited by Hynad on 12/27/2012 6:34:49 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:45:13 PM

Dude, what are you talking about? How in God's name could I give them the benefit of the doubt? Why? What have they done in the past seven years to make me grant them that respect?

They have earned no respect and little appreciation from their fans this generation. No, I don't see why I should be optimistic about that. And if you honestly believe FFXIV is the sole reason Versus has taken THIS long, you're just deluding yourself. It's the very definition of vaporware. We've seen and heard basically nothing concrete about it in many years.

No, this never happened before. Final Fantasy has never strayed from being an RPG. The series has never once pissed off 99% of its fans this badly. Two games? Try three. Lightning Returns isn't a Final Fantasy, either, regardless of how it turns out. That's an entire generation's worth of subpar FFs that the fans didn't want.

I have no idea why you're talking about "benefit of the doubt" here. Square Enix has earned no such thing. Sounds to me like the only one being biased is you. I'm merely looking at the facts.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 12/27/2012 6:46:06 PM

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:50:57 PM

What sense of self-entitlement you do have. xD

I believe you have the stats at the ready, about those 99% you speak of? Or do you base this number on what you see on the internet forums, which we all know is a haven for the vocal minority?

In any case, whatever. You believe the series is finished. I don't believe so. You're bitter about S-E, I'm not.

2 different approaches.

Last edited by Hynad on 12/27/2012 6:53:22 PM

1 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:59:50 PM

That's fine.

But please don't speak to me of entitlement. I'm the #1 attacker of that, as evidenced by my stance on the Mass Effect 3 ending issue. If Square Enix makes a great game in Lightning Returns, fine. I might even play it. But how they've treated Final Fantasy fans this generation is undeniably atrocious. That's not up for debate.

You can say the 99% stat is exaggerating if you like. I'd like to think I've had my finger on the pulse of the FF community for a very long time. And if you could find me ONE DAMN fan who has loved Final Fantasy for an extended period of time and who ALSO loves the look of Lightning Returns, I'll give you money.

Let's leave it at that.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 12/27/2012 7:01:21 PM

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Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:13:37 PM

I've been a fan of Final Fantasy since the very first game, when I played it at the age of 9 on the original NES. And I'm intrigued about Lightning Returns.

All the while feeling like a return to form is overdue. But that's just because unlike during the older gens, we haven't been spoiled with countless titles! That being said, I feel that XIII (and it's sequels) are the only games that didn't fully live up to the series' legacy. I blame Kitase and Toriyama for that. I've long said that they're out of touch with what made the series what it is. (heck, I was saying this about Kitase's team when I played FFX, which was a real disappointment to me back then). I don't like their stubbornness to make the game so limited in scope and freedom of exploration, unlike Hiroyuki ito's team. But I'm not going to question the reasons they give us.

I'm not an insider of their company, so pretending like any other reasons are any better than what they said would be thinking that I know better than them, and this, I don't. Neither do any of us here. Making up reasons why things didn't turn the way we wished it would have, screams of entitlement and bitterness to me.

In the end, I share your disappointment so far this gen. Just not the negative attitude towards the series' state or the hopelessness about its future.

But yeah, let's leave it at this.

Just know that I don't post much when I agree with you. Now, considering we don't argue weekly about every single editorials you write, I hope you won't take my relative stance against you as a perpetual one. ^_-

Last edited by Hynad on 12/27/2012 7:17:39 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:30:30 PM

Like I said, all that's fine. I can guarantee that the obstacles facing Versus go well beyond the company dealing with FFXIV, but you can choose to believe otherwise if you wish.

And just to clarify, this is more a Final Fantasy issue than a Square Enix issue to me. S-E has had their name on some great games this generation, after all.

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frylock25
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 4:34:10 PM
Reply

until we move past this whole thing with 13, FF is dead to me. i have no interest in all of these 13 expansions. 14 has already proved to be a waste so until 15 i dont think i really care about FF anymore. not like versus will ever come out.

1 up, 1 down

Hynad
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:38:31 PM

Rumors has it that Hiroyuki Ito is handling FF XV.

The guy is responsible for VI, IX and XII.

So I believe the series will fall right back on track with that title, if those rumors turn true.

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Underdog15
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 5:47:12 PM

Yeah but, SE has to support him. Tetsuya Nomura is a fantastic director, writer, and designer, but even he is having trouble getting FF Verses XIII realized.

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tes37
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:01:46 PM

There seems to be a pattern there. From VI, he worked on every third installment. XV would continue it. Probably doesn't mean anything though.

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ImTheMan
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:55:34 PM
Reply

So can someone please explain to me the difference between this and Dirge of Cerberus seeing as how that game also had Final Fantasy in the title? And was panned by everybody.

Is it the fact that this game is being marketed as a sequel?

Did I just answer my own question?

Am I asking too many questions? :)

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:00:39 PM

Dirge of Cerberus was a spinoff. It wasn't actually part of the Final Fantasy series. Lightning Returns is...and it ain't Final Fantasy by any stretch of the imagination.

It's as simple as that.

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ImTheMan
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:05:05 PM

How was it not a part of the Final Fantasy series and it had Final Fantasy in the title? It seems like it picked up a few years after VII. I have it but I never played it so I guess I'm a little confused.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:29:11 PM

Dirge isn't in the main chain of numbered games and was never supposed to have an RPG battle system. Fans expected DoC to be a TPS.

XIII and it's sequels all are a part of a main game and they keep destroying the battle system to make it more actiony. Fans expected XIII to be a continuation of greatness from the past, and it's like this long drawn out train wreck that moves further and further away from what FF fans want from their games.

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ImTheMan
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 6:57:59 PM
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Honestly the title doesn't seem that bad as it isn't an actual numbered entry. Wouldn't that have been worse? Regardless of them saying it's a sequel they at least knew better not to name it Final Fantasy XV. So just calm down guys...er Ben...

Last edited by ImTheMan on 12/27/2012 6:58:23 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 7:32:08 PM

It has a number and main protagonist heroine, so no matter how much it continues to leave FF fans behind it takes the whole franchise with it.

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ImTheMan
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:14:23 AM

But Dirge of Cerberus had a number too... -___-

Last edited by ImTheMan on 12/28/2012 1:15:03 AM

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Underdog15
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:36:47 AM

Dirge or Cerberus didn't have a number. Only in the Subtitle. Go look at your copy. It's

-DIRGE OF CERBERUS-
(Final Fantasy VII)

Like... FF7 is the afterthought. It's thrown in to indicate the world it's from.

This is FINAL FANTASY XIII : Lightning Returns. Either that's the full main title, or Lightning Returns is the subtitle. Branding is extremely important for this reason.

I'm not sure if you've played any of the 13 series or DoC, but if you have, the distinction should not be difficult to pinpoint. VII ended on it's own. It had it's own system and story, and it is what it is. DoC wasn't necessary to the FFVII title or universe. It served as something different set in a world fans love with a character most loved but didn't get a chance to get to know well enough. It was a nice little add on, but it was by no means necessary.

If we look back to X and X-2, FFX also ended just fine on it's own. FFX-2 was again, an add on, but it was not a "spin-off". If you remember, FFX ends with a hint that there is more to come. And the sequel, a proper numbered title and sequel as indicated by X-2 (not a subtitle, like DoC... DoC is not FFVII-2) it was a continuation of the FF proper name. And the battle system lived up to what it should be. It was different, yes, but it stayed true to itself.

Here's the difference, FFXIII and FFXIII-2 are proper numbered titles that stay loyal to itself, if not the FF franchise 100%. But you have to remember, that Lightning Returns is absolutely necessary to the story. If you beat FFXIII-2, you will see what I mean. It's an absolutely necessary part of the story. In order to finish the story we set out in RPG-land, we have to change up genres and live in a world of DLC and deadlines.

In short... SPIN OFFS are not necessary pieces to the story. They are... well... spin offs. lol. DoC is clearly that. But Lightning returns is necessary.

Also, DoC came like 8 years after FFVII ended. It was a REALLY late afterthought.

SPOILER
FFXIII-2 ends with a To Be Continued... and we have to return for... a Spin off? Really?

/End SPOILER/

Anyways, I'm not really sure what's so hard to understand on the issue. It's pretty obvious, I think. And it's obvious enough to most people that it's all over the internet, and SE is making excuses for it.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 12/28/2012 1:38:40 AM

0 up, 2 down

Hynad
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:52:48 AM

Nope. The title is in fact:

LIGHTNING RETURNS: Final Fantasy XIII.

Same way as it was for Dirge of Cerberus: Final Fantasy VII.

3 up, 2 down

Underdog15
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 1:26:25 PM

Hynad, stop ignoring the main points and arguing semantics.

A spin off should be a spin off. Not completely necessary to completing the story. I'm not explaining again, because I already did at length. It's beyond me how people can't grasp that.

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Hynad
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 3:11:06 PM

The original game was self contained and didn't need any sequel.

Just like FF VII didn't need Advent Children or Dirge of Cerberus. Or like FFX didn't need X-2.

Point being, XIII-2 may need a sequel, but Lightning Returns doesn't pretend it's supposed to be an ATB kind of FF. The meltdown is overblown.

2 up, 0 down

Underdog15
Saturday, December 29, 2012 @ 10:05:32 AM

FFX ended showing the need for a sequel, actually. And FFXIII-2 still needs an ending. Why "spin off" a necessary ending by placing the game in a completely different genre? It doesn't make sense. It's like making the next Metal Gear Solid entry a sandbox city crawler with swords and no cut-scenes longer than 30 seconds.

0 up, 2 down

Underdog15
Saturday, December 29, 2012 @ 10:09:39 AM

No one... NO ONE makes a sequel in a completely different genre. Spin offs, sure. But you don't make a sequel to a game a completely separate genre. People don't want to move forward with a genre they aren't fond of, and people don't want to have to go back to learn the past story by playing a genre they don't care for. One way or the other, you just don't do that. Gran Turismo isn't going to become Death Track. Little Big Planet isn't going to become a 3D action rpg. Valkyria Chronicles isn't going to become a FPS or TPS. And a required sequel to FF shouldn't become what it isn't.

Even if the game is good, people are going to wonder wtf it is. And it won't score well because of it, guaranteed. Just wait for the headlines from ign and other sites.... about how it's struggling to find an identity, and that it's lost, unable to commit to one genre or another and is left floundering with half baked ideas from both sides of the fence, but no concrete identity that works.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 12/29/2012 10:11:23 AM

0 up, 2 down

homura
Thursday, December 27, 2012 @ 9:13:15 PM
Reply

The story will be complete. I can't wait to watch it on YouTube. WooHoo!

1 up, 0 down

___________
Friday, December 28, 2012 @ 4:43:44 AM
Reply

seriously doubt this is accurate, but EB has this up as 12/12/13.
why is JP getting it early 2013, and we have to wait almost a full YEAR!?
doubt its true, but if it is there going to have one hell of a angry mob to answer too!
EB also has the walking dead survival instinct set for march 20th, now thats defiantly fake no way in hell its THAT close too release!
we still barely know anything about it.
wish that would change really soon, im actually really interested to see what its like.
really enjoyed TWD so im really anxious to see this.
hoping and assuming it will still have the gripping sickening sequences.
still cant get over what you have to do to get into the house, i mean come on thats a bit TOO far!

1 up, 0 down

Gamer46
Saturday, December 29, 2012 @ 2:42:22 AM
Reply

Sadly this series has gone completely down the tubes to the point where I'm surprised anybody even cares anymore. Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts have become average (some would even say below average) series and FF is just complete trash at this point. If it wasn't for some rare smart decisions like investing in games such as Deus Ex, Sleeping Dogs, Hitman and Tomb Raider, SE would be the biggest laughing stock in the industry aside from maybe Capcom.

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Don't Worry, Lightning Return's Story Will Actually Be Complete

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