Volition's Red Faction: Guerilla Maxes Out Xbox 360

I think we all understand that developers have a ways to go before they fully push the PlayStation 3's immense capabilities, but there has always been some question as to how much further designers can push Microsoft's Xbox 360, which is less powerful on paper. Well, Volition claims they've already "maxed out" the 360, and they're actually looking forward to the Xbox 720.

In a recent interview with GamePlayer, Volition's Rick White spoke at length about developing their new project, Red Faction: Guerilla for the Xbox 360. Here was White's response to the question, "so you're saying that RFG is pushing the hardware as far as it can go? Squeezing every drop of juice out of the Xbox 360?":

"Yeah, we've got it to the point where we can't even put an extra vehicle into a world, because it'll blow the memory. Every little change we make we have to be hyper-critical about it because it could just bring the whole system down. We evaluate every little change in the game, and then we run our tools on it to make sure it isn't going to break the game and then we move forward, so it really is about pushing the engine as far as we can, and pushing the hardware as far as we can, and then looking at what is the next set of hardware thats going to come out. Where can we take it then? You know were already thinking about if we had XYZ X number of years from now, what would we do with our engine?"

Of course, this makes everyone wonder: if they're maxing out the 360 now, will more developers turn to the PS3 or simply wait for the next 360? The latter solution doesn't really make much sense - businesses exist to make money now; not later - and we're already starting to see evidence of the PS3's hardware superiority with games like MGS4 and the upcoming Killzone 2, Uncharted 2: Among Thieves, and Gran Turismo 5. If you want to read the entire interview, feel free (some good stuff there), but the biggest news is right here. Let the debate begin...

Related Game(s): Red Faction: Guerilla

1/2/2009 Ben Dutka

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Comments (75 posts)

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Deleted User []
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 9:56:31 PM
Reply

He may be right...I mean im not a shill and I admit I wouldn't mind bluray on the next one.

Graphics dont bother me but that dont mean anything if there isn't space.

0 up, 3 down

SHADOW [Moderator]
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:43:04 PM

Me thinks you misunderstood something. They're not talking about running out of space on the disc they're talking about running out of available RAM. If they were out of disc room simply put out another disc, you can't put more RAM in your Xbox though. Really bad news as far as I'm concerned.

0 up, 0 down

N a S a H
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 5:16:24 AM

Yeah but I think(I THINK) the PS3 can make up for that by installing directly onto the HDD. Maybe. :)

0 up, 0 down

Jed
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:03:08 PM
Reply

For the time being this is going to be a bad thing for gamers.

Developers have been trying to make multi-platform games identical on each console. This way they don't alienate a the crowd who gets the version that doesn't perform as well.

It didn't matter when games were crappy for the ps3, because not many people had ps3s, and they really didn't know how to make them better.

Now that the 360 is maxed out, the 3rd party devs will stop there. If they made a game better on the ps3 than on the 360, than they would piss off all the 360 owners, which there are more of, and loose money.

I really hope this does not limit ps3 games in the future, but my better judgement tells me it will.

Hopefully devs that want to raise the bar will continue to make progress with the ps3.

0 up, 0 down

Troy Powers
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:07:54 PM

Thankfully Sony has kick-ass first party devs!

Even if third party developers continue to make games for the lowest common denominator, eventually that will make their games look like crap in comparison to the likes of God of War 3, Uncharted 2, etc. Eventually, they're going to have to get on board. I can't see many companies wanting to release inferior products and just wait for the next generation of Xbox to roll around.

4 up, 0 down

Scarecrow
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:51:25 AM

+1

Sony's first and second party devs will take things further.

0 up, 0 down

bamf
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 6:49:04 PM

@ troy
I have never thought about that before. For multiplatform devs I didn't see why it would be in their best interest to put money and time into making the PS3 version look better if the 360 version looked good enough anyway. But you make a good point.
Companies like EA arent going to want their games looking outdated to Sony's 1st party games on PS3. SO will these 3rd party devs work to make their PS3 titles superior over the 360 versions so they are comparable with Sony's 1st party games?

0 up, 0 down

Troy Powers
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:04:44 PM
Reply

In the words of that great superhero, Handi-Man...

"Uh-oh...sounds like twouble!!!"

3 up, 0 down

Jed
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:22:51 PM

10 points for the handi man refrence

0 up, 0 down

Troy Powers
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:25:29 PM

20 points to you for even knowing who handi-man is!

0 up, 0 down

MetalHead09
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:29:48 PM
Reply

sounds like 2 things are going to have to happen, either microsoft comes out with a new xbox now or xbox owners are going to have to buy a ps3 to get the REAL next gen gaming if indeed the 360 is on its last legs as far as output.

1 up, 1 down

Qubex
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 10:52:32 PM
Reply

Well, I have been posting here for over a year, and some of my posts have hammered the same point over and over again...

The ISSUE with PS3 is not what it can't do.. IT CAN DO A HECK OF ALOT... THE ISSUE has ALWAYS been MEMORY...

The PS3 is a very powerful 64bit computer... it is only hampered by lack of MEMORY... if we had 2 to 4 gigs... the developers could do almost anything graphically... HIRES TEXTURES, 1080p graphics as standard (with decent optimised code)... the ISSUE has been memory...

Sadly!

Q!

"i aM hOMe"

1 up, 1 down

LCF
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:08:43 AM

Um Q with the PS3, RAM is not the problem.There is a reason why the Cell is called "Cell BE (Broadband Engine) The coding runs at such a rate of speed that it does not bottle neck.Hell the RSX got alot of unused ram just for drawing purpose.You keep thinking conventional CPU and its not.The problem that most dev. are having is learning to break every aspect of the game up into the SPEs.Thats tough because some physics programs rely on one another.Not just physics either,texture and so forth.

Past consoles had RAM issues.The 1st playstation had this problem most of all.Need to stop thinking typical CPU with the Cell.Its funny no dev ever complained publicly about RAM issues,even on the X360.

2 up, 0 down

Qubex
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 5:08:47 AM

Fair point LCF... are you implying then that if game developers wanted they could simply stream anything off of a the blu ray disk - in / out pre-buffered - in order to give the higher quality textures desired on tap in real-time... because at the moment, I haven't see much evidence in the excellent texturing department yet... Killzone 2 is very promising... Uncharted was good from what I can tell... but why we suffer from bad texturing the COD games? On the PC, because of the resolution selections, the games always look crisper... surely FPS should be 1080p as standard!

Q!

"i aM hOMe"

0 up, 0 down

HUSO
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 7:02:27 AM

Q, console ram is less only if u compare it to PCs. but u should realize that its not meant to be compared to the PC, OS on the consoles take up almost a negligible amount of RAM. also u have to take note of the fact that the ps3 has 256mb XDR RAM as main memory clocked at 3.2 GHz and another 256 mb GDDR3 clocked at 700MHz same as the 360. I believe quality over quantity always wins. and taking into consideration that the PS2 was able to throw out a game like GOW2 with only 32 + 4 MB of RAM, think wats possible by pushing the ps3 to its limits.

1 up, 0 down

Aftab
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 7:58:37 AM

From what I hear, when it comes to textures, RAM can be a big problem. That is why Cliffy B from Epic urged Microsoft to increase the RAM in the 360 from 256MB to 512, despite it costing Microsoft an extra billion dollars. He won his argument by showing what Gears would like in both cases.

Regarding the difference the Cell can make in texture load, I have heard of texture- streaming, but I'd like to hear numbers as to how much more throughput it can offer.

So far what I've seen from games, is that the 360 is better for textures, and the ps3 is better at draw-distance, and number of on-screen objects. Th 360 does better bright colors, while the ps3 does better blacks. I've seen certain exceptions. Uncharted has the most beautiful textures I've seen in any game, and Ratchet has the brightest colors. And, Ninja Gaiden 2 shows that the 360 can handle a lot of simultaneous on-screen activity. Problem is, since these are exclusives, it's hard to make a full comparison.

0 up, 0 down

Aftab
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 10:02:21 AM

Furthermore, the most significant bottleneck of the 360, besides it's statistical reliability, is it's disc medium, DVD-9. Less data means lower overall resolution, or playfield size/content. RAM seems to be the bottleneck of the ps3, even with it's faster XDR, though they have seem to found clever ways to get around it.

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, January 02, 2009 @ 11:22:21 PM
Reply

Why are they wondering what the next xbox can do when they could just use the raw power of the PS3 for future games. (Use the bloody cell the way it was meant)

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 1/2/2009 11:34:29 PM

0 up, 0 down

King James
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:41:38 AM
Reply

So.....Red faction = Red Ring of Death?

Irony.

Last edited by King James on 1/3/2009 12:42:37 AM

2 up, 0 down

Scarecrow
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:52:32 AM

LMFAO! :D

0 up, 0 down

Scarecrow
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:52:51 AM
Reply

Poor Microsoft, the 360 is officially dead.

3 up, 1 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 3:03:07 AM

lol

Yep..you nailed it!

0 up, 0 down

DIsmael85
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 1:04:07 AM
Reply

It was just a matter of time before we started seeing more articles like this. Gears 2 already pushed it, and now this. This is why I kept arguing with people over and over about the blu-ray to DVD. But then again, you cannot expect people being cheap to understand that they get what they pay for. I look forward to seeing what games come out this year for the PS3, can only look better.

1 up, 0 down

jerocarson
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 1:08:49 AM
Reply

i wonder what microsoft would be doing to Volition's Rick White for making that statmenent. lol. just 3 years and it's maxed already.
microsoft had better concentrate on windows and leave gaming for sony and nitendo

1 up, 0 down

karneli lll
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 1:41:46 AM
Reply

Gears 2 pushed the 360 to its max? gears 2????? oh my,microsoft is in a pickle. An xbox 720 will spell suicide for ms

1 up, 0 down

Aftab
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 9:52:46 AM

I have Gears2, and MGS4. MGS4 is full grade higher in terms of graphics.

1 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 2:36:51 PM

It should be. lol

0 up, 0 down

isaya85
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 4:10:25 AM
Reply

Thats why M$ will be announcing the xbox720 at this years E3 they knew that the 360 couldn't compete with PS3 when it finally started picking up steam thats why they released 360 so early M$ just dont have what it take to be in it for the long run, so mock my words xbox720 E3 09

PSN ID Biggest_GMoney

1 up, 0 down

Qubex
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 5:10:36 AM

Is that a fact?... and will it be called an Xbox 720... naff name I have to say!

Q!

"i aM hOMe"

Last edited by Qubex on 1/3/2009 5:11:02 AM

0 up, 0 down

HUSO
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 7:04:20 AM

no they won't, if they do 360 sales would dwindle and everyone will be waiting for the next xbox to release.

0 up, 0 down

Phoelix
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 11:58:30 AM

Interesting point HUSO. If you're right, would Microsoft intentionally hush any information about PS3 games improving in quality while 360 games remain capped? I wouldn't put them above it since they lied about RRoD. All they really seem concerned about is making money.
I can see a lot of angry people if they announce a new XBox this year.

0 up, 0 down

SHADOW [Moderator]
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 1:55:39 PM

See now that is an unfortunate typo. "mark my words" and "mock my words" have completely different meanings and change your post from a prediction to a plea for flaming. Anyway that made me laugh. Had to point that out.

0 up, 0 down

Scarecrow
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 2:06:00 PM

And watch people buy ps3s like crazy when that happens.

0 up, 0 down

tanner1
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 4:39:15 AM
Reply

@ Q 256Mbit m8 ur on about nintendo 64?

0 up, 0 down

HUSO
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 7:11:51 AM
Reply

its a really stupid comment coming from a developer. the comment is solely based on the current engine which they are using. if they changed their methods of programming and optimized the engine some more they'd defintely be able to draw some more juice out of the xbox360.

and i sure do hope this game is nothing like Saints Row 2. that game sucked big time.

1 up, 0 down

Aftab
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 9:57:11 AM

Just what I was thinking. It would've been more credible statement if he they said that maxed out a particular engine on the 360, instead of the 360, itself. However, seeing how that Gears2 wasn't a significant jump from Gears1, I think we have already seen the best of what the Unreal engine can do.

0 up, 0 down

DIsmael85
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 11:47:34 AM

If they had changed it to optimize the game for the 360 then there would still need to be cuts, maybe a graphics degrade would help them get those extras in the game. Do some people realize that to get more you need more space? I wonder how hard this is for some to comprehend. They are trying to make the game look good and still cram more onto a 9GB DVD. A "DVD"!!!! That's all you get. People were shooting Sony and Blu-ray down, and all it seems like is as we move on with games getting better and better, we need that extra space. It's like a computer, the more stuff you put on it, the more space you will need. I don't understand how this does not make sense to the masses and that only a few can grasp this concept. It's as simple as saying you cannot fit 2 gallons of water in a 1 gallon jug. *shakes head*

0 up, 0 down

karneli lll
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:07:09 PM

Huso, why is it a stupid comment? It's the truth, they cant add anything more without messing it up.

0 up, 0 down

FallenClyro
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 8:35:54 AM
Reply

Hey this is good! Their obviously working hard on this game and to push it to the 360's max must mean that it's going to be a very compelling game. Looking forward to this.

0 up, 0 down

Zorigo
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 9:06:23 AM
Reply

ha. i must say the game looks good. and also MS are advertising the 360, when the 720 comes out, if it does anytime soon, it will have screwed all it's customers and people will be so pissed off that ps3 sales will go thru the roof. the thing that interests me is they can't enhance the game anymore coz it's too much for the 360. imagine MGS4 on the 360 if it weren't exclusive, overtime!

0 up, 0 down

isaya85
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 11:27:25 AM
Reply

Ok so I guess yall really think M$ got what it take to go the distance with PS3, Ok if I'm wrong then i'll give everyone that commented bellow my first post that disagreed with me $50 but I really think I'm going to be the one saying I told you so

PSN ID Biggest_GMoney

0 up, 0 down

Orvisman
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 12:28:21 PM
Reply

Hey, slightly off topic, can someone tell me why every 360 exclusive game I have and every 360 version of the multiplat games I own on the PS3 are 1080p while most of the PS3 versions are 720p max?

I know some multiplat games are 1080p on both consoles and some PS3 exclusives are 1080p, but EVERY 360 game is listed as 1080p on the game box. Is this true 1080p or is M$ft fudging things a bit?

I thought BluRay was the only current medium capable of true 1080p HD output?

0 up, 0 down

Aftab
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 2:54:30 PM

It's just misinformation. Those games are actually native 720p, but upscaled. The ps3 does that as well, however, Sony didn't advertise it as that. If you check recent 3rd party titles like GTA4, MGS4, Deadspace, and POP, they all show 1080p being supported on the back of the covers. And if you check 1st party, and 2nd party titles like Resistance 2, and LBP, they don't show it. It has something to do with Sony not wanting to risk any potential legal battles, no matter how far-fetched.

0 up, 0 down

ps92117
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 2:58:23 PM

well that is odd considering that before in order for 360 games to go 720 they needed hdvd and that was as far as they went 720, it is kind of hard to imagine that they could go 1080 with dvd, well its just hard 2 blive but i dont know much bout it lcf seems to be very tech savy maybe he knows

0 up, 0 down

somethingrandom
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 8:36:56 PM

They have been struggling to compress things on to DVD on 360 for a long time. Better compression has helped them fit massive amounts of information on the DVD, but I'm sure they're about to see the limit on that too.

0 up, 0 down

djjake
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 1:10:06 PM
Reply

i don't really give a s*** if its maxed out the 360

all i care about is that i hope the driving it a hell of a lot better than saints row 2

i just hope they don't hold back pushing the game on the ps3 because of the 360

i mean they f***ed over the ps3 in 06 and 07 i dnt see why 360 uses shouldn't suffer now

0 up, 0 down

Sir Shak
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 2:40:45 PM
Reply

never heard of this game

0 up, 0 down

ZubraZap
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 4:43:09 PM
Reply

My interest just peaked for this title..

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 4:45:56 PM
Reply

I have a feeling most games will start holding back. So that they can both look the same on each console.

0 up, 0 down

Phoelix
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 6:53:27 PM

I hope not. It will be a sad day when video game businesses completely ignore innovation and improvement just for the sake of money.

That's part of the reason why I like Sony so much; they seem to not care about the money as much as they do releasing a quality product.

0 up, 0 down

Troy Powers
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 10:42:29 PM

God of War III won't be holding back.
Uncharted 2 won't be holding back.
Killzone 2 DEFINITELY ain't holding back.

So, other devs can shoot themselves in the foot if they like. I've got the feeling that in 2009 I could get by only buying PS3 1st party exclusives and not miss a thing...ESPECIALLY if 3rd party devs intentionally cut corners just to make multi-plat titles look the same.

3rd party exclusives may be dead, but Sony 1st party exclusives are gonna BURY Microsoft this year. Especially if the 360 really has peaked.

1 up, 0 down

Phoelix
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 11:55:12 PM

Barring another Haze-esque debacle, I believe so, too.

Have you ever wished there was a second you that was rich and could do nothing but play video games all the time?

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 3:08:24 AM

Im not expecting it to happen to a large scale. But as long as the 360 sells more here its going to be their priority first.

Its not always good..just business.

0 up, 0 down

King James
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:03:32 AM

Ha, U wish they looked the same, Josh.

@Phoelix
All the time, bro.

Last edited by King James on 1/4/2009 4:05:23 AM

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 2:35:31 PM

I think its the other way around. I think YOU guys wish your games looks alot better for over twice the price.

Anything else?

0 up, 0 down

Phoelix
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 6:53:37 PM

I have never purchased a PS3 game for over $120, and I don't plan to anytime soon.

?

0 up, 0 down

crazypony92
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 5:17:10 PM
Reply

Hmm Interesting...

0 up, 0 down

BeezleDrop
Saturday, January 03, 2009 @ 8:15:22 PM
Reply

Haha it figures josh the sex box guy is the first to respond to an article that pertains to his liking. It's about time they actually "max" out a game for that console. Red Faction looks great either way. But it may have to wait in line for 09.

1 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 3:09:49 AM

So thats what really matters to you? Im sure a ton of great games will come out for 360 next year that have NOT "maxed" it out.

0 up, 0 down

King James
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:07:14 AM

U damn right Josh, A lotta multi-plat, disposable games that no one will remember in 3-4 years.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 11:19:19 AM

Not exactly.

0 up, 0 down

ec0li
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 2:15:12 AM
Reply

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

discuss

Seriously, this doom and gloom talk about the 360 is funny. PS3 on paper is definitely the stronger machine but to say that 360 is done for and MS needs a 720 now to compete is ridiculous. It's crazy what one interview with one developer can do to rile up the fans.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:09:36 PM

Yeah no kidding.

0 up, 0 down

orangpelupa
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:36:55 AM
Reply

dev always maxed their engine. but when they come up with new idea or with more advanced engine. the game will look better.

btw if PS3 have big RAM. maybe normal GDDR3 1GB RAM rather than 256MB XDR RAM. PS3 can have game with wonderful textures and many assets on screen. . . . streaming textures from BD or 5400rpm hdd is not an option. its too slow.

btw
look at the MGS4 demo that run 60 fps with many dust. it runs on the Ps3devkit...

hmm, maybe that what make kojima dissatisfied. MGS4 look a lot better on the ps3devkit.

now anyone know the devkit spec? from the MGS4 trailer, it look the devkit have stronger hardware.

0 up, 0 down

Aftab
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:34:47 PM

If texture-streaming is not feasible, than how come Uncharted has the best textures in the industry (don't take my word for it, play it)? It even has less pop-in than Gears. And regarding on-screen assets, GTA4 on the ps3 shows more vehicles and people on screen than the 360 version.

RAM seems to be more of an issue for developers who simply wish to port a game over from the 360. Instead of streaming the textures, in a RAM space that is half the size, but close to 5 times as fast, they simply reduce the texture in quality to load it.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 11:18:51 AM
Reply

Is this whole thread jealousy becuase the original had TWICE the amount of ram as the PS2?

Funny thing is. I never hear about how those games where any less..

0 up, 0 down

Wage SLAVES
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 12:57:26 PM
Reply

Cliffy B said they practically did it with Gears 2...and now 360 has been brought to its knees by Red Faction. Everyone wants that to happen to their system but not SO soon.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 4:11:17 PM
Reply

http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=6810

This article should be read.

0 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 9:14:48 PM

Nothing in OXM should ever be read.

0 up, 0 down

ec0li
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 10:37:25 PM

Actually all fanboys should read the article so they get can get a clue. Maybe we should stick to reading only Playstation centric sites and mags because anything pertaining to Xbox is bad, bad, bad. Ah well, what the hell do I know. I just read a variety of sources and perspectives so I can be not as well informed.

Come on Mr. Dutka, your last statement was not exactly fair.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Monday, January 05, 2009 @ 1:25:12 AM

You have to admit..This game will be AMAZING for how much it takes to run it. Im sure you will agree?

0 up, 0 down

ec0li
Monday, January 05, 2009 @ 1:38:02 AM

We shall see. I'll go as far and say that the PS3 version might run better if Volition's help from Sony might actually be helpful. This is what Sony should have been providing 3rd parties from the start instead of 3rd parties having to ask for help from Sony. It could have prevented the inferior PS3 ports in the past and stopped the perception that the more expensive PS3 is not as good as the cheaper 360. It was game after game after game and was a snowball effect.

0 up, 0 down

Wage SLAVES
Tuesday, January 06, 2009 @ 8:27:52 AM

On OXM: That is the only article with that comment in it. So I call fanboyism...

Last edited by Wage SLAVES on 1/6/2009 8:29:24 AM

0 up, 0 down

ec0li
Tuesday, January 06, 2009 @ 4:01:17 PM

So basically you're saying that an official guy from Volition telling their experience with both the 360 and PS3 fanboyism? The annoying fanboyism is how everyone jumped on the Gameplayer interview and were spewing out doom and gloom about the 360 just because it was the only one mentioned about how the developer was having a hard time yet they experienced the same problem if not worse with the PS3.

0 up, 0 down

Mrizzle1991
Sunday, January 04, 2009 @ 10:00:04 PM
Reply

Lol ben funny this website is much better anyway

0 up, 0 down

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