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Haters And Elitists Forget That Gaming Is Entertainment

While it's inevitable that those who frequently indulge in their favorite hobby, willingly diving into the minutiae that remains out of the casual fan's line of sight, there is a line in the sand. And sadly, as we look around the Internet, we start to realize that while the fanboys continue to infest and infect, the real disappointment centers on those who were once happy gamers and have now become unhappy grouches.

Believe it or not, the hating and elitism tends to go hand in hand. Essentially, if you're the "lone voice of opposition;" if you revel in being able to be one of the few dissenters who steps up in the forum and says, "you know, this massively hyped game just isn't that good," then you are the problem. You write a novella explaining why you know more than the average gamer, and yet...your conclusion is always the same. You spend their life trying to tear down the best games in existence, and as you can see by the description, there's an obvious element of elitism involved. Now, one can easily attribute this phenomenon to the fact that too many gamers remain insecure in reality and attempt to enforce their will online, thanks to the warm, glowing safety of a video screen. There's no risk besides contending with typed words, and the level of hostility shoots through the roof.

Killzone 2 just released, and while it's not perfect - no game is "perfect" - it's certainly one of the best games of the generation. That's not really debatable, whether it's your cup of tea or not. Many didn't reward Sega for creating the original, innovative, and engaging action/RPG Valkyria Chronicles last year, but that doesn't stop it from being a top-notch title. My point is that too many debaters and arguers online seem to believe that "opinion" is all that matters; that everything in the gaming industry is subjective. But while everyone is entitled to an opinion, and one can say, "I like Army Men: Green Rogue more than I like Grand Theft Auto III," they cannot say "Green Rogue is better than GTAIII." The latter isn't opinion; it's an incorrect statement. Inherent quality is not and never will be dependent on personal opinion. You can think that cubic zirconia is prettier than that diamond...doesn't change the obvious fact that one is of a higher quality.

And so, the haters and elitists think they can just step in, examine the aforementioned minutiae in the wee hours of the morning, and then impress everyone with their vast wealth of acquired knowledge. After all, if it's all just opinion, then technically, your stance needs to be accepted, if not respected. Wrong. It doesn't need to be accepted, either. Gaming is about fun, and if the majority of people have fun with a particular product, the product has succeeded in its goal. We should learn to appreciate that, rather than pick out every last tiny negative detail we can find. Yes, I will certainly say that Killzone 2 is better than Halo 3 (really no comparison as far as I can tell), and I could list all my complaints with the latter, but why? How come I can't just say that, for the most part, I had a great time playing it? I take my job as a critic seriously so I would break it all down if I had to, but the final conclusion really only centers on whether or not I think others will enjoy the game.

Enjoy. It's a fun word to say, isn't it? Can't the haters and elitists, who were once happy-go-lucky gamers that grinned at their TVs while sampling the latest Atari or NES game, return to their roots? Can't we just remember, for one second, that the ultimate goal is to feel entertained? Last question: if we spend all our time nitpicking and trying to prove ourselves (to complete strangers, by the way), how can we ever have any fun? The people I speak of must be miserable every day of their lives...even when immersing themselves in a hobby that's supposed to make you feel good. And that's just depressing.

3/3/2009 Ben Dutka

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Comments (113 posts)

AceTatsujin
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:03:19 PM
Reply

Very good article. Fight those haters and elitists!

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:04:18 AM

LOL! The irony........Ace ma man,what's good?

Last edited by www on 3/4/2009 9:05:21 AM

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Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:08:27 PM
Reply

You know...Killzone 2 just came out...and it was over-hyped. It wasn't that good.

HA, JUST KIDDING!!!

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Scarecrow
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:09:16 PM
Reply

I actually don't care 'bout xbox fanboys anymore

The ps3 is merely 7 million behind the 360, a gap which will be closed probably this or early next year.

So in the end the 360 is a last gen console trying to capitalize in its initial run.

While it does have great games it's a laughable machine in terms of what of what it can actually offer.

Halo? Gears?

Ok so what's left Microsoft? struggling now? No big games this year? lol

Not a big FPSs fan but Killzone 2 seems like a great game. Just like Gears and some other 360 games are. So in the end it's just SHEER JEALOUSY on 360 fans who have nothing exclusive to play at the moment(and for a long time).

The jealousy is hurting them deep inside.

PS: Also shows that the ps3 crowd is actually the more educated/less trashy of the two. Lotta retarded jerks on the 360 fanbase.

Last edited by Scarecrow on 3/3/2009 11:10:36 PM

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ImTheMan
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:35:45 PM

Did you even read the article man? It wasn't about 360 fanboys it was about the haters and elitists who think their position stands above everyone else's. And everyone who falls into that category can range from a 360 owner, to a ps3 owner, to a pc owner, or even an owner of a damn leapfrog. Come on now don't start stuff.

Last edited by ImTheMan on 3/3/2009 11:36:10 PM

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:03:48 AM

Yea Scarecrow,don't start stuff.You're being a ps3 fanboy here,stop bashing 360.

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Godslim
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 7:47:11 AM

well put it this way then 360 is a bad console with next to no games that make me want it ( even though i already have one biggest waste of money ever!)

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:13:00 AM

We all know this years's the year of the PLaYStAtIoN 3 no doubt,
unmatched exclusives.MS wake up!
Lost & Damned & Halo Wars isn't enough!

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Orvisman
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:19:41 AM

@ImTheMan,

Yeah. I partially agree with you, but it seems that these days all the elitists and haters fall squarely in the 360-only-owning camp.

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Qubex
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:02:00 PM

From a technical perspective, like the PS3, I think 360 is a very capable machine. I feel if a developer spent 4 years on developing a game, similar to Killzone 2, only for the 360, squeezing every last drop out of it, we would see some impressive stuff... the 360 is no slouch... but I still love my PS3 more and would never change it for the world...

Q!

"i am home"

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ps92117
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:10:31 PM
Reply

Lol very true, but being a hater and elitest is also fun.

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:20:09 PM
Reply

Ben someone can say that Army Men is better than GTA3 and be correct if it is based on a matter of opinion. The opinion becomes a false claim if it is based on statistical inaccuracies. (Saying Army Men is better than GTA3 in terms of overall sales).

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:26:09 AM

No. "Better" is an indication of quality, and regardless of personal opinion, Army Men isn't of a higher quality than GTAIII. Just accept this.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:04:54 AM

Vertigo you are wrong.The word better stands for a lotta things.

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Phoelix
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:13:45 AM

But the inherent quality of a video game is grounded, ultimately, in human opinion. It's just like the judging of any diving or gymnastics event: judges base their opinions on solid facts. This almost always ends up where the scores for one performance/game are about the same. Which is what we want.

Ben, just saying that a game is "better" than another is a statement that doesn't tell anyone anything other than your opinion. Give us some concrete evidence why you think one game is superior--the average review scores would suffice.

Once we enter the "this is better than that" territory, we end up fighting in pissing contests where the only evidence presented is the opinions of both sides. That never ends well.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 10:23:13 AM

It's not difficult to explain how GTAIII is better than Army Men. It's not difficult to explain how the diver who went in cleanly performed a better dive than the one who made a big ol' splash.

This isn't rocket science. It's a sliding scale, in that it gets more and more difficult to judge what's "better" when the quality of two things are very close. But the further apart they get, the easier it is...and common sense, believe it or not, does exist. Opinion isn't everything and never will be.

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Phoelix
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:09:19 PM

If it's easy to explain, please do. That will give us the most information on the topic, and chances are that we will arrive at the same conclusion that you have about the quality of a game. Just asserting the conclusion isn't as effective as presenting the evidence.

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 1:58:45 PM

Gotta agree FULLY with Ben here. It is only when you let personal opinion interfere with (what should be) Obvious characteristics which display quality, that you will choose something like Army Men over GTA in quality. Thats the problem with Reviews nowadays. It should be impartial but one's passion get in the way of professionalism.

@Phoelix
You want an explanation of abstract facts. Diamond vs Zirconia was a perfect example to help you get the "Painted picture," if you will, that Ben was trying to create.

Last edited by Wage SLAVES on 3/4/2009 2:05:15 PM

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Blaiyan
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 4:20:14 PM

I completely agree with Vertigo. What game is better comes down to opinion. That's it.

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Phoelix
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 4:31:40 PM

But who decides what that quality is?

What if I think cubic zirconia is prettier than diamond? Then I'm inclined to say it's better.

"Better" is largely a cop-out when we don't want to explain what the truth really is. For example, if I were to compare CoD4 with Halo, I'd say that CoD is more tactical and teamwork is a huge part of success because it doesn't take many bullets to kill you. Therefore, it's also a lot less run-and-gun. Halo, however, is an arcade shooter with fun multiplayer matches. It's also centered around the melee attack since it's a great finishing attack.

If I preferred tactical shooters, I'd say CoD4 is better, and if I preferred arcade shooters I'd say Halo is better. But what I should really say is listed above. "Better" in this case does a disservice to whoever I'm speaking to.

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BTNwarrior
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:21:12 PM
Reply

It still pisses me off that one of my favorite game companies Valve sits in the haters section. Because I love their games, but every time they bash the ps3 it makes me not want to buy their stuff

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:26:09 PM

BTN I love Valve (been playing CS since 1999) and I have to admit Gabe's continued dislike for the PS3 while supporting the 360 which is an inferior product confuses me. Being an avid PC gamer I can forgive him though since L4Dead has rocked my world since November. Just shows that no matter how great a company is there are always going to be some errors in judgment (where the hell is FF13!?)

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ImTheMan
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:28:59 PM
Reply

Ben's top 2 favorite words: Elitist, Elitism. lol

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:08:01 PM

@ImTheMan
Dude, you have it hard here. Peeps always thumbs down your posts for no reason. Even I can catch the joke in this...(the thumbs up was me! :P)

Who doesn't like the elitist though, right?

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 3:00:49 PM

Me too :)

If you want to see blatant abuse of the thumb system post anything on gamespot.

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ImTheMan
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:41:06 PM

@wage yeah its cool but I don't care. Nobody bothers me.

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Fabi
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:29:10 PM
Reply

Great article Ben. It just seems like every other KZ2 review completely ignored the fact that the gameplay was very polished and that it's fun as hell, and more action-packed than most games.

They had to go out of their way and point out every single flaw.

Just the other day I read this LOOOONG explanation some writer gave about why Guerilla took the "easy" way when it came to making a good looking game. Saying that the only reason KZ2 looks good is because it's all architecture, and there is no foliage or round edges anywhere. Basically saying there are way more impressive games out there, which is bullshit, cause it IS the best looking console game out there.

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:34:14 PM

I still think SOTC has better graphics than KZ2 in regards to art direction, hell I think SOTC has better art direction than any game ever made even though it is a PS2 game.

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SerichA
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:50:14 PM

Very true. A better example of liking something more. Although realistic graphics obviously have a lot more effort, stuff like Okami and SotC are gorgeous and in originality produce better results to someone like me who is sick of realistic graphics (though of course no other graphic styles have been brought to higher levels, except a few here and there like Valkyria Chronicles)

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ImTheMan
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:29:53 PM
Reply

Haven't opened my kz2 yet but I'm sure its better than halo 3 also.

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JasperLoons
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:43:46 AM

Open it!

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:09:00 AM

Haven't played K2 but i KNOW it's better than Halo 3.
Yea BETTER as in:
Gfx
Gameplay
you know the rest.

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:13:49 PM

Its GREAT but takes some getting used to if you love games like Halo...like I do. I really still havent gotten used to it. Those Helgast pull off shots that you can Never do with the controls. (Dont hate out there, I play my games on Max Difficulty so back off if your rockin on Easy and want to hate.) I personally didn't like Halo3, it didnt have the same feel as the first two, so I think it is better but sadly the controls (IMO) could be a make or break for some...

Last edited by Wage SLAVES on 3/4/2009 2:15:27 PM

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chicko1983
Tuesday, March 03, 2009 @ 11:30:33 PM
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K2 is an awesome game, 'nuff said.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:37:31 AM
Reply

Ben the word "better" can be used as an adjective and thus is open to interpretation based on its usage. So someone can use the word better to describe their personal views towards a certain product (in this case KillZone2). Of course people's opinions have been shown to be grossly inaccurate when compared to the mainstream belief (your example of Army Men to GTA3) but still it is their opinion and they believe a certain product is better regardless of all the evidence you believe might show otherwise.

You give perfect evidence to this in your article when you mention your opinion in that KZ2 is better than Halo3. I'm sure there are Halo3 lovers out there that could cite just as many reasons for Halo3 being better as you could for KZ2. It is a matter of interpretation and personal likes/dislikes.

Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 3/4/2009 12:39:44 AM

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JasperLoons
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:48:34 AM

It's a thin line, but there is a difference between saying "this game is better" and "I like this game better."
I think you and Ben are arguing in different directions.
I started out playing Killzone thinking I was going to like R2 better (easily changed my mind by the end), but it was clear from the beginning that Killzone was the "better" game.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:40:49 AM

Vertigo you're the elitist and the reason for this article to start with.
I wouldn't be surprised if this article is meant for you........LOL!

jk-47 dude!

Last edited by www on 3/4/2009 6:43:14 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 10:24:58 AM

You're still not getting it. If you want to believe everything is based on personal opinion, go right ahead. I'm not about to bow to some idiot who says Pulse Racer's graphics are better than Gran Turismo 5: Prologue's because it's their "opinion."

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:13:56 PM

Don't fall into the the "What the meaning of the word is is." Trap.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/4/2009 12:14:05 PM

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:16:31 PM

F-ing semantics....heres a thumbs down for the feeble!

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somethingrandom
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:42:24 AM
Reply

The only thing to seek is fun, not elitism.

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Zemus101
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:42:52 AM
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Ben, you're my hero. I was just thinking about this stuff today while skimming through a forum on another site. It caught my eye but was mostly full of people bashing KZ2 for stupid reasons. 60% of it was people saying how they hated the controls, and obviously didn't realize they could change the control layout, for example ... they didn't like the R3 scope. My KZ2 hasn't shown up yet, I'm hoping for tomorrow morning. Although I don't know how good i'll be at the game and i'd love to have some people to play with online, but we'll see how it goes.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:57:38 AM
Reply

@ Jasperloons

The word better has many uses, one being desirability, you can't tell someone their desirability is wrong. At least not in the context Ben is trying to argue.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:47:37 AM

Words are entertainment,don't be arguing about which word's better used than "better".....let's just sit back and enjoy making statements even if it's not coherent........LMAO!

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ImTheMan
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 1:23:46 AM

FFIX=best FF ever!!!

Last edited by ImTheMan on 3/4/2009 1:25:41 AM

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Arvis
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:51:58 PM

No way, TACTICS is the best FF ever! =D

-Arvis

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 1:27:45 AM
Reply

FFVII=best FF ever!!!

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Vivi_Gamer
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:09:41 AM
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Final Fantasy VII,VIII & IX = The perfect trilogy.

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Arvis
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:52:32 PM

Ultima, I didn't know you LIKED anything...

-Arvis

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Fabi
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:25:46 AM
Reply

It's a crime, I bought both FF8 and FF9 on release day, but never finished either...

I still have em, I should really go back and pass them... Why didn't I pass them? I seriously have no idea. FF8 was so awesome.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:40:20 AM

You're insane man! (jk) You need to finish those games, thats comparable to owning a movie and never having seen the last 30 mins. Stop posting on here and go play!

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dveisalive
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:39:12 AM
Reply

I have alot of game haters, and I tell them that at least im not doing drugs, drinking, or putting my health in danger, and plus im improving my hand-eye-coordination as well!

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:11:50 AM

Yea hand-eye coordination,no wonder am like Louis Hamilton behind the wheels

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:16:06 PM

You have a lot of game haters? Like own them?

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Banky A
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:51:45 AM
Reply

Good article.
I hate elitists, I hope I will never become one.

PS: Hitler was a douche.

=D

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onsiterecording
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 3:47:51 AM
Reply

You know I've been coming to this site for a while now and it's been my number one playstation source, I enjoy all the articles but I feel my opinion differs from bens here a little bit.

Of course when someone says something is s*** but offers no explanation to why they think that, they should not be listened to. However if they say "I didn't enjoy enjoy killzone 2 because the controls feel slightly sluggish and I've had a great FPS experience the past year with COD4 and dont really need another one yet." then they should have every right to voice their oppinion, especially on a site which is not a playstation 'fansite' but more of a community site.

I think the problem lies more in determining opinion from fact, which was mentioned in the article. I have my own opinion about a PS3 exclusive (not KZ2) and it is that it's not as good as everyone else thinks, however thats my opinion, and sometimes I'd like to share it with other people, so we can talk and see each others point of view. Just because I'm to go against popular opinion or reviews doen't make me wrong or a hater. I can accept other peoples views and they can at the least tolerate mine.

Being a fan of HipHop in Australia puts me in a small group. All through high school my mates would tell me my musics s***, and that would piss me off, because they had never heard what I'd listened to, just what was on the radio and they didn't like it. They never had to like it, but to critic something they knew nothing about really annoyed me. Now I have tried, tested and completed this PS3 exclusive title plus played it's multiplayer, and in MY opinion it's nothing special despite it's reviews and popularity. Maybe it just didn't suit me. I have my reasons and the right to an opinion, just because I'm going against the trend doesn't make me a hater.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 10:28:58 AM

I don't think you understood the article. I know what you're saying and I completely agree. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions on anything, and I have no problem whatsoever with that. I'm merely illustrating that there is inherent quality in just about everything, especially in the video game world, and people who say "it's all opinion" completely devalues much of the production, and the work of the designers.

One developer can pump out a rushed, crappy game that may appeal to a few people, while another developer spends three years making a stellar game, which appeals to just about everyone. The few people in the former category can say they LIKE or ENJOY their game more, but in terms of quality, no, it's not better than the other. Which means they can't say theirs is "better."

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PS3_Wizard
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:16:41 AM

So you listen to American Hip-hop right? I personally prefer Rap.

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Fabi
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:26:44 PM

Damn, this is a little late, but I'm glad to finally see a Hip-Hop head on the site. You met De La Soul? Awesome, Rock Co Kane flow is so dope, they just needed Doom on stage :)

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ImTheMan
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:56:05 PM

@ps3 wizard rap and hip hop is the same thing. come on now

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onsiterecording
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 1:15:02 AM

Ben, sorry if I misunderstood some of the article but I'm glad I wrote what I did because it let me know what the staff felt about what i brought up. I mean this isn't China and for that Im glad, aslong as legitimate opinions are welcome. And I dont want to get off on the wrong foot with anyone here.

@ps3_wizard: ofcourse I like american hiphop, alot of the best comes/came from the States

@Fabi: I saw De La when they performed here on new years day 2008, and for old guys who performed the night before they still put on the best show I've seen. I only met Dave, he was going through the crowd after so I ran up and asked for a photo. He was happy to oblige. I have videos on my youtube site

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PS3_Wizard
Friday, March 06, 2009 @ 10:07:00 AM

@ Im The Man

You always tell others to "learn something" and call me a "oreo" and you think Rap and Hip-hop is the same thing? Thats like saying death metal and regular rock is the same. I live and breath Rap, so don't try to tell me something I know.

Hip-hop has a more commerical feel to it, more catered to partiers and the radio, while Rap has more of a underground, straight hood feel to it. Take the artists for instance.

Hip-hop artists: Common, Talib Kweli, Kanye West, Nelly, Flo Rida, Jay Z, NAS, Soulja Boy, T-Pain and a few other intellectual and/or "people" friendly artists you most commonly hear on the radio waves. Hip hop artists don't really Flow about killing anybody or selling drugs. Hell, most of their lyrics have to do with partying and the struggles of black america. Most of the people from that list make up wack ass dances to go along with their music, in a lame attempt to make black americans look less violent in the public's eye.

Rap artists: Young Jeezy, T.I., Gucci Mane, Plies, Scarface, 8 ball & MJG, Rick Ross, B.G., Tupac, Notorious B.I.G, Killer Mike, Dipset, C-Murder, Juvenile, Lil Boosie and other Real N****Z you prolly never heard of. These are the guys who often cater to the hood, rapping about Trapping (selling drugs) and reppin yo set (gang). Basically, they are the hardcore who only care about being REAL and not so much as getting on the radio to boost sales. Alot of them promote the "Death before Designer" phrase, which basically means that they will stay true to their roots and refuse to look like a bi*** and try to make there lyrics appeal to everyone.

Not to sound racist, but statistics show that the people who buy most Hip-Hop records are white suburban kids, which help boost sales for Hip-hop artist, giving them more money in return. Without the help of the suburban kids, many people like lil wayne and other rappers wouldn't be as successful, which is the reason most of their lyrics are more accessible to people outside of the hood.

There is also a different in styles. Most hip-hop artists are embracing the "tight jeans and clothes" style, while most true rap artists still wear the oversized clothes from back in the late 90's.

So how do you say it I'm The Man? Learn something?



Last edited by PS3_Wizard on 3/6/2009 10:08:26 AM

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ImTheMan
Friday, March 06, 2009 @ 9:28:04 PM

@Wizard Its the same thing LEARN SOMETHING. So Jay-Z doesn't rap about drugs? How did he get in the game then? I see you have T.I. in the rap "category", why does he say HIP-HOP IN HIS LYRICS THEN? SAME GOES FOR YOUNG JEEZY. LOL T-pain is a hip-hop artist? Why is DAMN NEAR ALL his music in the R&B category then? LOL I can see now you don't know REAL RAP/HIP-HOP MUSIC LOL. Trying to sound like you know what you talking about LOL. You don't have a clue about real N****s in the music industry LOL.

You are CONFUSED. You were comparing COMMERCIAL RAP/HIP-HOP to UNDERGROUND RAP/HIP-HOP AND STILL F*CKED IT UP!!! LOL And did you say DEATH BEFORE "DESIGNER"? HAHHAHA YOU MEAN DEATH BEFORE "DISHONOR" HAHAHAHA Go look at vh1 and wait for a biography to come on or something then come HOLLA AT ME. You are VERY FOOLISH LOL

Last edited by ImTheMan on 3/6/2009 9:40:09 PM

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Common Cence
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:28:02 AM
Reply

Hey ben I hope you don't mind but I suggested to someone to post this on N4G.

It needs more articles like this over there

Last edited by Common Cence on 3/4/2009 6:28:21 AM

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The Stig
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:32:09 AM
Reply

Really good article. I was just thinking about this the other day when I was reading on a forum about Killzone 2. People were displaying this type of elitism, but didnt know the word to describe them. Now I do.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:35:27 AM
Reply

Already predicted K2 being better than Res2 in the forums long before it's release.Since R2 was the best fps before K2,
then we can declare K2 as the best exclusive fps on ps3 thus far.
Come ending of this year if GoWIII isn't released i predict Heavy Rain or Uncharted 2 being the best ps3 exclusive.

About the haters and elitists,though they're annoying,i don't think they'll be going away anytime soon.I feel they make the games industry very interesting.That's just about it,in sports,we have different teams with their own fans who argue their lungs out in bars n all.You're asked which baseball team do you support,"oh i luv the Yankees",u are clearly a NY Yankees fanboy,you can't say you'd luv the Red Sox to win the league,u certainly want ur team to win and stand by it any day.

Did u realize people also forget sports is entertainment.Yet we still have haters and elitists in that field.
So that's just the way it's supposed to be.I don't think hating and elitism will ever go away,it's what makes the industry go round.Competition between these game makers is created partly by these fanboys.
We all know competition is good for any industry.

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Godslim
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 7:50:13 AM

r2 wasnt the best fps b4 k2 cod4 was.....and i knew as soon as i played both closed betas killzone was better....mind u i didnt like r2 at all really but loads of people like it :D

Last edited by Godslim on 3/4/2009 7:50:40 AM

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:09:02 AM

Misunderstood!
Okay yea i left out the word EXCLUSIVE.
R2 was the best exclusive ps3 fps before.
Of course,CoD4 is the best in terms of multi-plat.

Last edited by www on 3/4/2009 9:09:43 AM

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:24:47 AM

@ www

You said, "Haven't played K2 but i KNOW it's better than Halo 3."

You are the type of person Ben's article is directed to. Anyone that will make a comment like yours without ever playing the game you claim is better than another is just ignorant and signs of a flamebot.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:33:43 PM

LMAO!....Vertigo,at least the K2 demo gave me an idea and iv'e played Halo 3,it's enough to judge.
It's CLEAR that K2's graphics and gameplay is better than Halo 3,please!

Nothing personal,no need to use words like "flamebot"....relax,i was joking-47.

Last edited by www on 3/4/2009 12:37:16 PM

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Victor321
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:51:13 AM
Reply

Nicely written article Ben.

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Belazor
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:10:22 AM
Reply

The problem lies in the wording, I think.

I have a friend that loved Infinite Undiscovery, and The Last Remnant, in spite of the fact that most if not all critics slaughtered both games.

So if she loved TLR more than FF12, she would naturally say "TLR is better than FF12".

This is no different from, say, cheese. If someone likes yellow cheese more than brown cheese, they might say "I think yellow cheese is better than brown cheese", and they will assume that people are taking this comment as their personal opinion and not an attempt to establish a lexicon fact.


So I must say I disagree with this article. In my opinion, it would be better to educate people to the fact that "better" IS relative to personal opinion. "Better" is a word used to describe taste, and if someone has a taste for something (be it cheese, or video games), they will say that what they prefer is "better" than the alternative.

Last edited by Belazor on 3/4/2009 8:11:15 AM

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Jordahn
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:22:39 AM

For the most part I agree with the article. But I do not agree with the statement...

"Inherent quality is not and never will be dependent on personal opinion."

I say this because the original Siren on the PS2 has an average rating of 70%, but the remake on the PS3 has an average rating of 80%. Guess what? I like the original better. Yes, the PS3 version have better graphics and an improved sight jack system. But overall, it wasn't as creepy as the original, not making it the survival/horror game it should have been.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 10:34:38 AM

What? "Better" is an indication of quality. What IS it with everyone's massive ego these days? What made people think that what functions in their minds changes every last particle of every object on earth? The cubic zirconia isn't better than the diamond, I don't care WHAT you think is better.

The cheese thing is a terrible analogy. If both cheeses are in fine condition and edible, it all comes down to taste. Video games have a million different facets to them, some of which can be and ARE objective. Which means that some facets are rotten while others are fresh...you can SAY you like the rotten parts if you like, but you can't say they're "better."

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Jordahn
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:15:18 AM
Reply

I've been fighting elitists and haters for a long time. As long as these people can hide behind a keyboard and a monitor, they think they can do anything because of their false sense of security. And this goes for all consoles. I've been called both a PlayStation and an Xbox fanboy. But the strange thing here is that I'm really a Nintendo fanboy. I guess I must be doing something right.

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chaosrunner
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:27:09 AM
Reply

The only point of contention I have on the subject is the cubic zirconia/diamond analogy. I agree that quality (good, better, best) is objective, but the statement also seems to be encompassing value, and value is definitely subjective. Someone could, for instance, value a cubic zirconia ring more than a diamond ring, despite the fact that the diamond is a precious gemstone and would sell for more on the open market. That's because value has nothing inherently to do with quality.

But that's a long diatribe for another day. Regardless of that one point of contention, I think you brought up some great points, Ben, and I really like the series of editorials you've put out on this.

On a related note, did anyone else see this article:

http://www.gamezone.com/news/02_26_09_09_11AM.htm

It's almost like someone's been taking notes on Ben's 'why do people keep asking when the PS3 is going to catch up' posts.

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Randomhero1
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:38:38 AM
Reply

Where Did The Fun Go?

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Dr_Frodo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:50:40 AM
Reply

Diamond is of no better quality than cubic zirconia. In fact, you could make a piece of 100% pure cubic zirconia quite easily, yet find an 85% pure diamond, thus the zirconia is of higher quality.

The only reason diamond is more expensive or valued more is it's natural rarity, if it was possible to cheaply make it in a lab, it would become cheap itself. (Hence the alchemists quest)

I'm understanding where you are coming from with this article, but saying 'Game x is better than game y' is obvious opinion, it is simply a short way of saying "I believe game x is of higher quality than game y, I have played both, summed up both differences and have come to the conclusion that game y fits my gaming style better".

Although this argument can be had; I think GTA4 is of high quality (highest quality of the GTA series in fact), although it's still not as good of a game as GTA:SA. The elements of fun in the latter game needn't be stated, but imagine if both games where at the same technical level, which one would you prefer? the one with the fun factor of course.

Although there are some games that I did indeed did not live up to hype, example (I'll use generation 7 of consoles); Haze, Gears 2, CoD4, CoD5, Civ:Rev and so on, some of these are not bad games, just do not live up to the 'hype' that was imposed. There are indeed a lot of popular games I dislike and borderline hate due to how easy they are or their genericness, if a game don't stand out (I don't mean 'innovate') or pose a challenge, then I'm gonna get bored real quick.

Although there are some games labelled as 'bad' simply because the community didn't like a change in developer (e.g. Twisted metal 3, 4) and other reasons. IMO final fantasy series will (unfairly) gain more popularity than other RPGs due to it's brand name, some brands have not earned this right where some clearly do (Polyphony Digital).

Lastly, It really winds me up when a person says 'game x is better than game y' then some halfwit comes out with 'well you CAN'T do that, game x is FPS and game y is TPS'. I couldn't genre less on genres, for example, Half-Life 2 is a better game than Ratchet & Clank: ToD, yes they are different genres, yes R&C is a fantastic franchise, but I don't think any decent, sane gamer would claim the other way round.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:29:33 AM

Good comment Frodo, I agree.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:57:42 PM

When's the next Lord of the Rings?

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Wage SLAVES
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 2:27:16 PM

@Fondo
If you want to be nit picky...there is no "Natural Rarity" in diamonds, DeBeers has a monopoly and create artificial scarcity.

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Fenrir
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:54:59 AM
Reply

Well Ben another big and well written article. But my opinion differs a little. I think to argue with someone on a knownlegde level is quite ok. Even if you tease each other a little bit or make some sarcastic statements. To me this is an argue culture which is needed to get an overview on all points of view. Whatīs not needed is like you said, people who have no arguments but offends or people who just state stereotype.You know - Best way for a jounalist is to make a statement without a position. Because there are enough facts tellin the attentive reader if a something is good or bad. But if I write something from my personal point of view, it is just my two cents and I donīt need to be bound to facts just to my impressions. If somebody is odd opinion - Ok,whatever - maybe this will start an interesting discussion. And the value of a discussion belongs clear to the level on which itīs held. Haters just offend and are dull in my opinion. Elitists claim to know but being confrontated to someone with deeper knownledge they just pop. After all, to argue about a game, console or product, whether on an objective or subjective basis, is needed to reflect on nowadays quality and make it better. In the end many the developers and maybe some decission makers of companies are reading forums like this as well. And forums like this are a very good source for new knownledge, thoughts, critics and praise on new games. E.g. this is why Iīm here. :-)

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Dustinwp
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:33:19 AM
Reply

I play video games when I get off work to relax and enjoy myself. I do get sick of all the haters and people who think their so damn smart. Really most of these people who think their so smart are actually arrogant! Haters and elitists are the reason why I miss the good old SNES/Genesis days when there wasn't so much hostility.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:38:45 AM
Reply

These haters and elitists are usually younger kids. I have to admit I myself went through the phase growing up. It doesn't really upset me too much since I just view it as immaturity and something that will normally be resolved with age. However it does piss me off when I see a 25 year old man arguing about how better the ps3/360 is with a 15 year old at Gamestop.

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www
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:55:14 PM

I'd really like to see those Gamestop guys,i heard their 360 fanboys.

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coverton341
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 1:09:33 PM

Not all of them are 360 fanboys. I used to work there and I am not a fan of either console per se I love them both for what they do. The Wii on the other hand, I am a Wii hater.

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Naga
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:52:27 AM
Reply

Once a upon a time there was these Xbox/PS3/PCtards on Youtube so sad that they would endlessly spout crap how 360 has better games and how PC is better than Consoles which in truth PC to me ironically sucks compared to Consoles.

So is this why gamers are unhappy these years jealously ?
Why can't elitists and haters enjoy their Gaimz instead of posting horrible why Xbox/PS3/PC sucks videos

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raztad
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 9:55:48 AM
Reply

Hate is NEVER fun, so please dont be a HATER.

Now, you can try to measure the inherent quality of a game using certain variables, that doesnt make you an Elitist. Those variables tell how good is a game compared with other, but if you put aside the FUN factor then you become an Elitist.

Even worse, if you are an Elitist and happens to be biased against the PS3, you simply forget to properly use your variables to measure quality, and give KZ2 a 7/10, making yourself look like a fool, because the game is already out and almost everybody, except HATERs, think it is an amazing game.

Last edited by raztad on 3/4/2009 9:59:56 AM

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Diggity Dan
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:14:45 AM
Reply

As much as I agree with the sentiment of people trying really hard to bash PS3 games, and how annoying that is, I have to call you out on this line of BS:

"Inherent quality is not and never will be dependent on personal opinion"

I dont think you even believe that. Of course "quality" is subject to opinion, that's why we all have different gaming preferences. One can say that the # of polygons rendered is a clear quantifiable value, but things like the "fun factor" are impressions, prefernces, or "tastes" if you will, they're opinions.

If somebody doesnt like Killzones gameplay, dont get all worked up about it. Just enjoy your games.

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big6
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:43:47 AM
Reply

What Ben's getting at is:

==> You can like your Hyundai Pony more than your friend's Porsche 911 - for whatever reason - but you can't say that the Hyundai Pony is a "better" car than a 911. Get it? The first is opinion, the second is a statement of quality, or a quantifiable marker/indicator.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:47:25 PM

Thank you.

See? It's really not that difficult.

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Qubex
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:15:02 PM

Yeah, pretty spot on... in other words products are priced at levels that (in most cases) reflect the quality and brand of that product.; and their perceived (to some degree) value in the market...

Each product, like a video game, has a set of KPI's (Key Performance Indicators)... if the thresholds of quality etc etc are exceeded, the differences between a poor game and a superlative game are easy to see...

You can use a "margin of error" of + - 5 to 10% that could dictate personal preference and likability which is dependent on personal opinion of whether something is actually "better" or not... but usually "better" will indicate the level of quality of a product across the board... whether you personally like it or not... "GT5", for example, could be argued that it is a technically better game/product than "Forza" for example... but personally people may like either or depending on personal opinion and likability...

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by Qubex on 3/4/2009 8:15:48 PM

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coverton341
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:45:15 AM
Reply

It has been said previously in the comments here but I would like to restate it and try and elaborate.

I like Super Mario RPG better than Killzone 2.

There. I do not by any regards feel that Super Mario RPG is better than Killzone 2 but I like it better.

Here in lies the difference between elitism and personal preference.

I fully understand that better game in terms of quality, sound, gameplay, online value, production value, and a slew of other things is Killzone 2 but my personal preference in gaming leads me to enjoy SMRPG more. Don't get me wrong I love Killzone 2 but my personal tastes lie in RPGs in general.

This is way different than saying Killzone 2 is not as good as SMRPG because even if your personal gaming tastes make you like SMRPG better saying it is better than Killzone 2 is stupid. Period.

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big6
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:05:34 PM

But when making such comparisons, shouldn't one's comparisons of differing products/genres, nullify the the argument all together?

Like, I know you like Mario RPG better than KZ2, but you should really be comparing Mario RPG to other RPGs. Because that's like saying, "Playing football is waaaay better than Chess." Sure, they're both forms of recreation, but they fall under different classifications of activity.

I think all Ben is saying, is that you can like Wolfenstein 3D better than KZ2, but that doesn't mean one can assert that "Wolfenstein 3D is a better game than KZ2". That would be wrong. See the difference?

(again, you need to compare apple-to-apples, rather than fruits-to-fruits: So comparing FPS-to-FPS, rather than something like comparing Pong to KZ2... which cannot be compared, IMO)

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coverton341
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:32:06 PM

True that most of the time when comparing games you should do it in the same genre but is there any real debate that the game Killzone 2 is better than Mario RPG in terms of art sound and a bunch of other production values? I think not, even being in a different genre you know there are certain universal factors and that is the point I am trying to make even if two games are in different genres they can still be looked at with universal game elements.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:28:40 PM
Reply

Not much I can add that hasn't been said, I just hope the forumites here don't find my submissions elitist. That would harm Mr. World's tiny ego that just likes to have fun with games (And occasionally discuss them) :)

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 3/4/2009 12:31:28 PM

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coverton341
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 12:33:45 PM

ELITIST PIG DOG AMERICAN!!!

J/K

See that's what I do. I ask for a treat and honk the horn.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 1:35:46 PM
Reply

I've just been trying to point out that the word better is both subjective and relative. My better could be different than your better and thus if all you say is something is better without giving any valid arguments to why you believe it then all it becomes is a subject/relative word. Someone can say a Prius is better than a Lamborghini and be correct if they're basing it on valid variables (mpg). I really don't see how this is confusing, the FACT is the word better has many different meanings and if all you do is say the word but offer nothing else to explain its use than you can't justify its intent.

I love reading your articles Ben, I don't want to piss you off...I enjoy a good conversation and you strike me as someone that always offers that.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 3:12:53 PM

Just use common sense. Leave the word "better" out of it, and regardless of opinion or reasons, I don't believe anyone should be allowed to say that Driven is "better" than Gran Turismo 4. That's all.

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smileys_007
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 4:39:55 PM
Reply

great article, and i only have one opinion.. and that is ps3 is "better" than the xbox 360.. it's just my opinion.. that's all..

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apofisboricua
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:40:26 PM
Reply

OHHH Whats wrong with you people...you portrait yourselves as intelligent gamers but cant really understood what Ben tried to said in the article?

BEN, next time draw it! I believe some people here droped out of school and they need a visual easier explanation. LOL!!

HEY MAN!! Great article as always!!

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 6:45:59 PM

Apofisboricua, next time you intend on trying to accuse others of having a low intelligence you might want to convey a coherent thought, free of misspellings and grammatical errors.

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Bugzbunny109
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 7:51:59 PM
Reply

Here is the problem: People/Gamers these days do not reminisce the saying; "If you do not have anything good to say; keek your mouth shut!". There is nothing wrong when a person states their opinion, but when their comment shows bias in ANY WAY or some form of adversity, controversy erupts. People are quickly offended these days. We can complain about fanboyisim or elitisim as long as we want. We should ACCEPT and learn to DEAL with it.

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Fenrir
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 3:21:18 AM

You name it! We need an argue culture you yourself decide on which level you discuss or argue. If someoneīs poor in mind he will allways be a hater or elitist because he canīt be more than that.

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SubjectiveTruth
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 7:54:13 PM
Reply

Things get blurry when you try to say what the inherent quality of something is. Who gets to decide in the end? I think that inherent quality is best determined by the majority of peoples opinions...All though I find after a second of afterthought that judging it by the popular opinion does not work either.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 8:33:20 PM
Reply

I just downloaded the demo for The Last Remnant for PC and I must say it is pretty fun. If you have a pretty powerful computer and a high def widescreen monitor you're in for a treat.

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Banky A
Wednesday, March 04, 2009 @ 11:22:33 PM
Reply

This is semi-off-topic but these f00ls are hating on GOW III and PS3s' for random reasons ;)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.92599

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Diggity Dan
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 8:42:51 AM
Reply

**"==> You can like your Hyundai Pony more than your friend's Porsche 911 - for whatever reason - but you can't say that the Hyundai Pony is a "better" car than a 911. Get it? The first is opinion, the second is a statement of quality, or a quantifiable marker/indicator."**

Sure you can! One could argue that the value, longevity, fuel economy, etc are superior. It all depends on how you define "better" or define what components are subsets of the term "quality".

As much as I get the gist of the car analogy, I dont think it really applies to video game entertainment. EVERYTHING with games is subjective. All you could objectively say is that game X has more polygons per sec renderend than game y.

I think Frank Zappa said it best: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture".

Dont get so worked up about what other people think about games or how they compare them. If it's all about entertainment like you say, you wont write articles like this because you're too busy enjoying your games.

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Diggity Dan
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 8:48:51 AM
Reply

***"Just use common sense. Leave the word "better" out of it, and regardless of opinion or reasons, I don't believe anyone should be allowed to say that Driven is "better" than Gran Turismo 4. That's all."***

Why not?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 11:10:28 AM

Common sense was the first part of that sentence.

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shaydey77
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 10:19:46 AM
Reply

Hating the haters...NICE!!ha

As for the whole 'better' discussion...just put a few words after it describing your take on the word. Clearly to Ben it means quality which he has stated above whereas better to me is what I like to play personally.
Gta is better for shooting people while army men is better for green plastic.
case closed.

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Diggity Dan
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 12:30:44 PM
Reply

Driven is better than Gran Turismo 4. That is not subjective, that is a fact.

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Diggity Dan
Thursday, March 05, 2009 @ 12:44:20 PM
Reply

BTW, I looked up the definition of irony, and I found:

"the real disappointment centers on those who were once happy gamers and have now become unhappy grouches."

_____

So as long as everybody agrees with Ben's idea of what "quality" is, there's no problem, eh? :) :)

I happen to think KZ2 is awesome, and that PS3's exclusives dont get NEARLY the attention they should (LBP, Motorstorm 2 come to mind). I admit fully that I'm a PS3 fanboy. I practically wear it on my sleeve. I think the PS3 offers the best game library, but that's my feeling. That being said, give me a break Ben, games are subjective. People say Halo 3 is better than KZ2, so what? Diffrent Strokes....

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