Full PS2 Backwards Compatibility To Return To PlayStation 3?
See Full ImageEveryone is talking about the need for a PlayStation 3 price cut, but let's not forget that Sony loyalists have been craving another feature for the past few years...
It was included in the original 60GB PS3 machine that launched back in late 2006 in North America, but it was the last console to boast the graphics synthesizer chip that emulated 99% of all PS2 software. The next PS3 switched to emulation and only handled a certain percentage of PS2 software and as it stands now, the standard 80GB PS3 doesn't support PS2 games at all. However, Sony just got finished saying at their E3 press conference that they'll continue to produce their last-generation machine and according titles as long as its relevant in the marketplace, so the call for PS3s to play PS2 games hasn't died. So with all this talk of a potential slimming of the PS3, might they also re-institute what that lacking Emotion Engine did? What if the cell processor could finally support the latter? Well, according to a US patent filed by Sony, this may no longer be a dream. The schematics you find via that link represent the evidence: Figure 4 is "an example of a host system based on a cell processor that may be configured to emulate the target system." The target system in this case is Figure 3B; the Emotion Engine.
So, what do you think? Has Sony finally decided to listen to all the fan demand for the re-implementation of backwards compatibility for PS2 software? Will the new PS3s - slim or not - have the capability the very first systems had? It now seems likely. We'll definitely keep an eye on this and keep you up-to-date...
6/29/2009 Ben Dutka
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Comments (Beta)
King James
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:40:01 PM
0 up, 0 down
Karosso
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:43:22 PM
My 80GB MGS4 edition so far has played everything I have thrown at it, and I do still play quite a lot PS2 games on it.
Most likely you were one of the lucky ones that got the 80GB with BC.
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Jawknee
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 2:06:43 AM
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King James
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:38:37 PM
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Wouldn't it be cool if Sony could do this with a firmware update?
Last edited by King James on 6/29/2009 9:43:05 PM
6 up, 0 down
Karosso
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:46:36 PM
GoW1, 2 looked amazing and I'm happy I waited to play those games after getting my PS3 and HD TV!
2 up, 0 down
King James
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:08:54 PM
1 up, 0 down
xnonsuchx
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:09:33 PM
Last edited by xnonsuchx on 6/29/2009 11:10:09 PM
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souljah92
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:37:27 AM
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King James
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:21:07 PM
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:45:46 PM
With the progressive scan, every line of the image is sent with every frame so unlike interlaced images, each clock tick a full image is sent, and builds line by line - progressively, without having to be merged with another image.
Normally in fast moving video, progressive scan will look far sharper and clearer. Interlaced video sources tend to have slightly smudged edges, and with poor de-interlacing you can see tearing where the individual lines are visibly shearing apart as part of the image visibly moves faster than the other.
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Superman915
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:39:59 PM
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Last edited by Superman915 on 6/29/2009 9:40:35 PM
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Karosso
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:54:36 PM
Just as a side note, many PS2 titles did support progressive scan and Widescreen on the PS2 itself, so if you had it hooked correctly to a HD TV it looked amazing. Try Prince of Persia:SoT and GoW1 and 2.
1 up, 0 down
therabbitkinge
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:47:45 PM
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0 up, 0 down
Qwarktast1c
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:13:26 PM
oh well it's all good, so no worries
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BigBoss4ever
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:49:20 PM
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to make this fair, sony should refund all the consoles without b/c and replace them with the new consoles that have the emotion engines.
Last edited by BigBoss4ever on 6/29/2009 11:29:10 PM
1 up, 7 down
Qwarktast1c
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:11:12 PM
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spiderboi
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:02:27 PM
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xnonsuchx
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:15:50 PM
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HeXeN
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:49:21 PM
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recks1jtp
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:49:46 PM
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therabbitkinge
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:49:57 PM
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1 up, 0 down
Cunn8780
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:52:33 PM
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Zet
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:56:54 PM
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godsman
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:57:40 PM
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Superman915
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:03:25 PM
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2 up, 0 down
Karosso
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:05:33 PM
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2 up, 0 down
mackid1993
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:10:51 PM
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0 up, 1 down
LimitedVertigo
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:15:24 PM
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SnipeySnake
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:15:52 PM
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SnipeySnake
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:21:41 PM
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200$ Very light psp 3000 with touch screen, slid text pad where the screen is, second analog stick, and removable R2 and L2 buttons and camera
( http://psp2hacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/psp2concept2ac4.jpg ).
*drools*.....
Last edited by SnipeySnake on 6/29/2009 10:22:49 PM
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ffrulez
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:24:33 PM
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migabyte
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:37:06 PM
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3 up, 2 down
migabyte
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:21:58 AM
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BikerSaint
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 10:47:06 PM
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Got a couple questions for anyone in the "Tech-know" fields(such as our resident guru, Highlander).
Q1. Are there any differences in a PS2 game playing between an emulator, and the actual Emotion chip itself?????
Q2. I've heard that the emulator in those older 80 Giggers only played about 80% of the PS2 games, so is that correct that it won't or can't play the full 100% of PS2 games? And if so, then why?
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WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:06:05 PM
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:35:40 AM
The difference is that with the 80GB systems some high profile games - such as soul Calibur III - don't work well, or at all. The problem is that some really good developers used the GS hardware in ways that are not standard. These non-standard methods, sometimes exploiting hidden functions or undocumented features of the GS often helped performance greatly. However the software emulation of the GS is based on the specifications and PS2 platform specs. Many of these hidden features or shortcuts are not emulated, and so some games will fail to run, or run with issues - such as poor performance.
Sony has updated the emulation several times improving it as they go. Even so the emulation only covers 80-85% of all PS2 games.
6 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 11:04:48 PM
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Kevadu
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:04:44 AM
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mustang750r
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:16:09 AM
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I noticed a couple of people saying that the progressive setting is "better." Well I beg to differ. If you set the upscale on the picture looks more smoother and defined than opposed to having the standard 480p on. I've tested this on a few of my games like GoW and the picture looks beautiful.
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:27:18 AM
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Alright, here goes.
The Cell BE already emulates the Emotion Engine, and in fact does a fairly excellent job of it too. It's been doing it for about two years, and every BC system sold in Europe and all the 80GB BC systems sold elsewhere has it built in.
The problem chip for a fully software backwards compatible solution in software isn't the EE, it's the Graphic Synthesizer.
The Cell is almost tailor made to emulate the EE since the EE features a single general purpose core and two math units which the SPEs on the Cell are well suited to emulate. So emulating the EE on the cell is relatively straight forward, of course the trick is to do it sufficiently fast enough that the emulation can execute the same millions of instructions a second that the EE processor itself can do.
The original 20GB and 60GB systems include the entire PS2 chipset resulting in a backwards compatibility that matches the slim PS2.
When Sony brought the original 80GB units with backwards compatibility they did away with the Emotion engine and Graphics Synthesizer chipset and replaced it with a software emulation of the EE and a partial emulation of the GS along with a specially designed custom chip that emulates the functions of the GS that couldn't easily be emulated by software.
The compatibility in the 80GB units has improved greatly since it was originally launched. When it first arrived the compatibility was something like 80% of all PS2 games ever released, but there were many key titles that didn't work. However firmware updates have improved the compatibility of that emulation. I don't know the compatibility figure now, but I do know that there are fewer high profile titles that don't work, and fewer games that have glitches.
When Sony yanked the BC solution completely in a fit of pointless cost cutting, everyone expected that they would make good on their stated intent of doing BC completely in software. They haven't done it yet, although lots of people remain hopeful.
The biggest hurdle is that the GS chip is a tad on the unique side, and has a very, very wide data bus in it that results in peak bandwidth (how fast it can shunt data around from place to place) that is difficult for a software emulation to match. The Cell and RSX have hardware internally that is capable of handling that requirement, however it's difficult to balance that requirement with the rest of the emulation. Many of the online articles you can find on the topic talk in depth about this, and it seems like it's a hurdle that may not be overcome. However there are other methods, for example emulating the graphics of the PS2 at a software level, and not simply emulating the hardware.
Some point to PC based emulation as an example and say that Sony must be able to do it. One thing to remember is that even with all the ridiculous GPU hardware and the latest quad core systems from Intel, there is no PS2 emulation on PC that plays more than a handful of games in anything like real time. Even the best PC based emulation is incompatible with or unable to run, more than 90% of PS2 games.
I'm not sure when this patent is from, the linked article didn't contain a patent number, but this seems suspiciously like one of the early Cell patents.
It's entirely possible that Sony has solved the technical problems with the GS emulation, they have had the time to work on it, and heaven knows that no one else knows the PS2 better than they do. Personally I think that either they have solved it, or they know how, and eventually PS2 compatibility will arrive via a PSN downloadable application that they'll charge something like $20 for. The new emulation will more than likely be able to play downloadable PS2 games as well as PS2 games on DVD. This is pure speculation on my part, but it makes the most sense as that way Sony can transition not only PS1 and PSP games to PSN, but also the very lucrative PS2 library. It makes too much sense for it not to be on the agenda at some time.
7 up, 1 down
Xbox_Killer
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:08:57 AM
Thanks for the info.
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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:31:51 AM
BTW Highlander I think you should talk to Ben about possibly writing some articles. You not only know what your talking about but you take the time to explain it to us common folk.
2 up, 0 down
TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 2:34:02 AM
Thanks. Ben is a far, far better writer than I.
Besides, I'm happy to contribute from the peanut gallery when I have the time. Less pressure and no deadlines. Plus when I'm wrong about something, the worst that happens is I have to apologize for my error.
3 up, 0 down
CH1N00K
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 8:13:35 AM
Either way though, I'm still loving it, and it's good to go back and play the classics once in a while, but if I didn't have that option? There's still lots of PS3 games that keep me entertained.
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:05:18 AM
Way, way, way back...Sony said that they wanted to do PS2 and PS1 compatibility in software without the use of hardware, but the software only PS2 compatibility wasn't ready when the PS3 was nearing launch. So Sony went with the option of including the PS2 chip set on the PS3 motherboard. It's not a very elegant solution and does add cost and complexity. The 80GB systems were a step in the direction of software based PS2 compatibility, but it wasn't as good as hardware, and it still included some hardware, and so there was still some additional complexity and cost. Once that hardware was removed, PS2 compatibility could only be provided through software.
The full software based PS2 emulation either isn't ready, or Sony isn't ready to release it. For everyone with 40/80/160GB PS3s that do not have any PS2 hardware at all (not even the helper chip). You need to understand that a fully software based PS2 emulator *would* work just as well for you as any other PS3 model, so don't worry. So long as PS2 compatibility is provided through software *ALL* PS3 models are are covered.
2 up, 0 down
BikerSaint
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:46:58 AM
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He's always coming through in the clutch when this non-techie bonehead only holds a vowel, but still hasn't any clue.
1 up, 0 down
Ultimadream
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 2:22:42 AM
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0 up, 2 down
neostorm
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 2:30:31 AM
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TEG3SH
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 2:56:44 AM
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u really really really know what u're talking about man
thanks for all the clarification mate
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RustEDalex
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 6:07:35 AM
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www
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 7:47:14 AM
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Game Over
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 8:32:06 AM
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slayerkillemall
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 8:47:44 AM
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although it be nice to retire the hardware and be able to play all on my ps3,i doubt it would happen anytime soon,maybe after 2010 ....
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Ricochet
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 9:03:01 AM
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1 up, 0 down
TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:09:46 AM
Removing the PS2 BC hardware from the PS3 may have saved approximately $30 per unit, but it cost them (Sony) sales and was a PR disaster when it was done.
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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 9:10:47 AM
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:33:05 AM
There definition of playable is;
"You can get from 'new game' to 'end credits'. This is regardless of FPS, it simply means you could with a great deal of patience, complete the game! eg: Slow, but stable!"
Just over 50% of titles they list are classified as 'playable'. Which could mean anything from a couple of frames per second to running at the original frame rate. No where on the compatibility list for 'playable' games do they make claims regarding how many games play at the original speed.
There are a dedicated bunch of people working on that emulator, but even with well configured PCs most 'playable' games seem to run slow, and require considerable reconfiguration of the emulator to run at all.
For an emulator to be useful on the PS3 it has to simply work, without having to be reconfigured every time. It has to play games at the original frame rates, or not at all. I personally find it bogus to claim a game is playable when it's not running at anything like the original frame rate, or has regular glitches that were not present when the game was played on the PS2.
That's not to say this emulation isn't quite an achievement, it's just not ready for prime time. The very fact that with all the hardware resources of modern PCs this emulator still can't do the job should be a good illustration of just how hard it actually is.
2 up, 0 down
Alienange
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:20:11 PM
Last edited by Alienange on 6/30/2009 12:20:25 PM
1 up, 0 down
LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 5:21:12 PM
I don't sit at the desk. I sit on my comfy couch and play using my wireless 360 controller while viewing the game on a 52 inch plasma.
Dumb-ass
0 up, 1 down
LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 5:23:08 PM
I didn't mention it to imply it's what the PS3 should utilize nor do I think it's perfect. It's better than nothing though and I've been able to play a majority of my PS2 collection with far better graphics and with a wireless controller. I agree it isn't for the average joe as it can be quite technical.
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 5:38:53 PM
Yep, but it's still quite an achievement and does show that something can be done. I just wish I had a PC with enough grunt to run it.
1 up, 0 down
LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 5:59:32 PM
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Ricochet
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 7:16:11 PM
I'd buy a PS3 60GB version (Asia version), problem is that it's also "region" based meaning that I can't play US or PAL PS2 games, which would suck.
Backwards compatibility is needed as games like GOW3, MGS4, The last Guardian needs some background knowledge before these games can be truly appreciated unfortunately most of those games are PS2 based and I can't find any online retailers that sells these games that will ship internationally.
Just in case you haven't noticed, playstation.com is having a GOW survey if fans are willing to have GOW 1 & 2 in BLU-RAY bundled with GOW 3. I know I do!
Last edited by Ricochet on 6/30/2009 7:16:44 PM
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TheHighlander
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 10:48:00 PM
Yeah, I know, Linux....sounds too much like work...
1 up, 0 down
LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 @ 1:06:00 AM
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Danny007
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 9:45:57 AM
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Alienange
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 12:17:54 PM
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If that goes through then all PS3s will get it as a dlc/firmware update. That would be a dream for me. Love my ps1,ps2,ps3 games. All on one system? Do it Sony dooo iiiiit!
1 up, 0 down
Russell Burrows
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 1:06:37 PM
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Recent events have the PS3 Operating System going to lower and lower RAM needs.
Hence.
It becomes easier to dedicate freed system resources to other tasks like emulation.
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RadioHeader
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 3:38:23 PM
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1 up, 0 down
twenty8nine
Tuesday, June 30, 2009 @ 11:39:18 PM
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Dancemachine55
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 @ 4:33:01 AM
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"Can it play my old PS2 games?"
I sadly say no, and they wind up buying a Wii.
THIS STATEMENT IS A WAKE-UP CALL SONY!!!!
KEEP B/C IN ALL CONSOLES FROM NOW ON OR YOU WILL LOSE POTENTIAL SALES!!!!
AND PUT B/C IN ALL PS3'S TO SELL MORE CONSOLES!!!
Sorry to use all caps like that, but I need this to get Sony's attention. They have lost so many PS3 sales just because it can't play PS2 games!!! They don't seem to realise just how important this is!!!!
1 up, 0 down
Dingodial
Wednesday, July 01, 2009 @ 1:35:42 PM
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1. Who they hire for their commercial team
2. Taking b/c out of the PS3 when they could have just used a hard drive with less memory (to cut production cost)
3. creating a netbook that they think people are willing to pay $900 for
1 up, 0 down
stevev363
Thursday, July 02, 2009 @ 4:55:56 PM
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denny
Thursday, July 02, 2009 @ 6:59:36 PM
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hdmi output so can hook one to the tv and the other one to your high end receiver so you don"t have to turn on your high end receiver
all the time to watch tv that would be reel
nice sony please.
0 up, 1 down
shootu
Friday, July 03, 2009 @ 12:45:27 AM
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1 up, 0 down
Lordnicon
Friday, July 03, 2009 @ 10:17:56 AM
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Backwards compatibility is great and I dont think sony would take a huge decline in ps classic game sales simply because many people either dont have their old ps1 games or they dont always work properly and as of now, nobody is selling ps2 games via the psn and I dont think they will.
Anyway, pardon my rambling but B/C is a must for me and im sure there are tons of other people that would like to enjoy it.
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Zemus101
Reply
Monday, June 29, 2009 @ 9:36:00 PM
Last edited by Zemus101 on 6/29/2009 9:36:13 PM