How To Decide On A Console For Multiplatform Games

Early on in the generation, this was a little more challenging simply because developers hadn't become familiar with the new and complex PlayStation 3. However, now that we're mostly past those dark days, the multiplatform title question has become quite clear.

So you've got both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 and many times, you have the same question concerning a new release: "which version should I get?" Well, believe it or not, there's a very simple answer to this question, provided you understand how the industry tends to operate. If the game you intend to purchase was initially designed from the ground up with both consoles in mind, the end result will likely be two versions that are almost identical. Any differences at all are usually negligible for the average gamer and it might only come down to controller preference, or something like that. However, if you find that a game began its life as an exclusive project for one particular platform, it's best to simply go with that console. For instance, Bayonetta was only made with the 360 in mind at first and was then ported to the PS3 by Sega, which unsurprisingly has resulted in a lesser-quality PS3 version. Next year, Final Fantasy XIII will launch; this is a title that began development way back when with the White Engine, specifically designed with the PS3 in mind. Furthermore, with the Blu-Ray capacity that is guaranteed to be a bonus, it makes the most sense to nab the PS3 version, regardless of what the 360 fans say.

It's really not that tough. Sure, there are a few graphical differences between some multiplatform games even when they're created with multiple consoles in mind, but in all honesty, it's not typically a big deal. Assassin's Creed II, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, Batman: Arkham Asylum, etc.; these are multiplatform titles that aren't significantly better on either the PS3 or 360. In fact, these days, most aren't "significantly better" on one console or the other unless those responsible for making the game switched gears along the way. This may seem like common sense but you'd be surprised how many people aren't aware of the facts...

12/28/2009 9:32:16 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (69 posts)

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Nasty80
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:03:50 PM
Reply

Whats the difference between bayonetta on the two systems? or does it just look and play better on the 360.

Last edited by Nasty80 on 12/28/2009 10:04:45 PM

0 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:13:38 PM

I've read the PS3 version has bad frame rate issues and from the demo I played it has some of the worst screen tearing I've ever seen. Not sure if screen tearing is present on the 360 version.

0 up, 0 down

NeoHumpty
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:42:26 PM

Yeah, watching a side by side the 360 version does look a lot crisper. After some more reviews come out I may rent it. I'm refusing to buy it, though. A word to the game makers-if your product isn't ready don't release it. Spend an extra 6 months polishing it for a system, just let people know it is coming.

6 up, 0 down

I_defenestrate
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 5:04:20 AM

I've wondered this for a long time and never asked, but what exactly is screen tearing?

Nevermind, I looked it up finally.

Last edited by I_defenestrate on 12/29/2009 5:07:33 AM

0 up, 0 down

www
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 6:25:39 AM

Got both demos. 360 has richer colors and its sharper, that's the case with some other games too. Plus heard the PS3 has framerate issues. The 360 version is the one to get but I don't think its unplayable on the PS3.

0 up, 0 down

LittleBigMidget
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:13:11 PM
Reply

Alot of people endup buying multiplats on 360 for Live,Sharper Graphics,and extra content. But I always buy the PS3 version anyway

2 up, 7 down

BikerSaint
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:14:12 PM
Reply

Ben@, Thanks for the 411.

The PS3 is my preferred system and since I buy my games used, I always try to pick it up for the PS3(if both versions are available).

But just because I have heard some story's about bad game porting, I have mulled it over whether to get the 360 or PS3 version(but only for a few seconds).

1 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Saturday, January 02, 2010 @ 12:59:25 AM

You should always look to make sure... starting on one system isnt' always a def... Dragon Age: Origins should have been on par if not better on the 360 but Bioware handed it off in order to get the PS3 version working and that shows in it's crisper textures. Ghost Busters was PS3 lead and it was way better on the 360 version.

0 up, 0 down

geovanwitdakick
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:14:34 PM
Reply

hmmm, I think Batman Arkam Asylum is indeed better on the PS3 because of the exclusive Joker playability. But "significant" has a different meaning for everyone.

3 up, 0 down

Gone
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:17:34 PM
Reply

It's easy, go with the console that has a longer life cycle (PS3 10 years).

9 up, 1 down

inkme101
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:26:53 PM
Reply

i just stick with the ps3 no matter what. not fanboyism, just the right tool for the job. plus ive alway felt it was a far superior piece of hardware.

9 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:13:23 PM

Ya gotta figure years down the line just which system will still be alive and ready to play your games.

1 up, 0 down

to_far_apart
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:42:30 PM

well we know which one will last longer right? haha

I guess it all depends on what console you have. If you have a PS3, stick to the PS3, if you have an Xbox 360, stick to it's version. If you're one of the ones who own multiple consoles, then do your homework like Ben mentioned. You always want to play the game at it's best, so look for which version the game that was mainly designed for one specific console.

4 up, 0 down

Mornelithe
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:31:03 PM
Reply

PC for multi-platform, PS3 for exclusives.

9 up, 6 down

TheJackyl
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:51:08 AM

Yeah, people can give a thumbs down all they want but they certainly couldn't venture a solid reason not to buy multiplatform games on the PC.

Especially if you have a HTPC (Home Theater PC). I play my PC games on the same 46" HDTV that I play my PS3 games on. I can also sit back on my couch using my wireless XBox 360 controller and enjoy DX11 graphics while people using the console ports are stuck with DX9.

One of the biggest selling points of the PS3 to me was that you can't get PS3 exclusives on the PC while you can get Xbox exclusives.

6 up, 2 down

Mornelithe
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 7:40:17 AM

It's alright Jackyl, these folks tend to get a little butthurt when you present them with truths about the PC. Much easier to act like children than actually provide a dissenting/alternative opinion. I'm used to it though. And yes, I enjoy my DX10, and can't wait for DX11.

1 up, 4 down

HeXeN
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 8:07:01 AM

I'm kind of a trophy whore(good enough reason for you).I do however buy the so called 360 exclusives for my rig.

1 up, 1 down

Mornelithe
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 9:37:08 AM

Doesn't really matter if it's good enough reason to me, Hexen. If it's good enough for you...and increases your overall gaming experience, who'm I to stand in the way of that? I like PC's, I like what they are capable of in the right hands, and I like the fluidity of controls that are only achievable via mouse. Sure, the keyboard is a little clunky, but it offers a much wider variety of customization than a console (Until K/M support is standard on consoles). But, that's me.

I do appreciate you actually giving a response, however. Rather than simply throwing a thumbs down with nothing to back it up.

0 up, 0 down

Alienange
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 10:24:14 AM

I don't see the need for K&M for 95% of the multiplats that actually do make it onto PC. If you're a FPS nut and want to play with your K&M then that's great, but GTAIV, AC2, Mass Effect certainly don't gain anything from it. Neither do I see the added expense of keeping up with every DirectX release just to play a small handful of FPS as beneficial to me. Especially when you can teach your hands to wield the DS3 with the same lethality.

3 up, 0 down

TheJackyl
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 1:08:37 AM

Alienage, as I was mentioning with my post there is no reason to go the K&M route with your console ports on the PC. There are a ton more gamepads than you can shake a sitck at for the PC and basically any console port to PC is going to support using gamepads. I recommend getting the Xbox 360 wireless controller for the PC as that improves compatibility.

I've used my controller to play such multiports as Batman Arkham Asylum, Dirt 2, Red Faction Gurrillas, Saints Row 2, GTA IV, etc.

Hexen, you know there are often plenty of trophies to obtain with the PC versions as well. Both Steam and Games for Windows Live have support for trophies.

3 up, 0 down

godsman
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 10:58:23 PM
Reply

Well.... if by multi-platform, you mean shooters, then of course get the Xbox version. The PS3 controller is designed for ALL gaming. Fighting, racing, Platform, shooting. It cannot compete with a dedicated shooters console like Xbox. For everything else, I think PS3 is better.

In terms of graphics, developers are limited in visuals because of the cost to making these HD games. Many games, supposedly not taking advantage of the potential of the PS3 SPUs, still manage to look as good as Xbox when ported over. They will all look identical. It's the large titles that require lots of processing that really sees the differences in power.

0 up, 8 down

Alienange
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:32:55 PM

PS3 controller is just fine for "shooters." Getting FPS on PS3 also comes with the added bonus of not having extra expenses just to play online.

9 up, 0 down

Naztycuts
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:31:11 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you godsman the 360 controller is like a brick with buttoms on it. It is the most uncomfortable controller I've played with why do you think MS is developing Project Natal? They know their controller is a hunk of garbage, they wish they had a comfortable design like the PS controllers, but they dont so they would rather make it invisible. Before PS Super Nintendo had the best controllers IMO.

5 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 9:09:58 AM

I don't know if I would say the Xbox controller is a "brick". It is a better shooter controller. As for the PS3 controller, I think it's too small. My hands cramp all the time. If it comes down to it, I'm choosing the game on the Xbox because of the controller. (If everything else is identical, of course.) I don't feel like I'm going to break it everytime I pick it up or use the joysticks like I do with the PS3 controller. (For example, in Force Unleashed, when you're pulling the Destroyer down, I had my second controller out in case the sticks broke from the "Force" I was using.) I will say that I do like the PS3 controller for sports games...

0 up, 3 down

Jawknee
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:37:26 PM

I prefer the PS3 controller for FPS. The triggers on the 360 controllers are too stiff and I don't like the placement of the left analog stick. Gives me hand cramps.

5 up, 0 down

TheJackyl
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 1:23:19 AM

You know I used to agree with NastyCuts on the xbox controller being as uncomfortable to hold as a brick. But I guess I was left with that impression from the original xbox controller. After buying the Xbox 360 wireless controller for PC I've become quite comfortable with it. Honestly they are nearly identical. Only difference is the the direction pad is swapped with the left analog stick. Difference between using a PS3 and 360 controller is about 10 to 15 degrees of your left thumb.

0 up, 0 down

Scarecrow
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:01:41 PM
Reply

What are multiplatforms?

Only multiplatform I've bought this year has been Street Fighter IV

Quality > "will look and play the same for both consoles"

Last edited by Scarecrow on 12/28/2009 11:01:58 PM

1 up, 3 down

Deleted User
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:01:42 PM
Reply

The controller always was a deciding factor for me in the past. If the game played better with a certain controller, I'd buy it for that console if it was a multi-platform game.

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:12:21 PM
Reply

Go with the console that has the best exclusives so when your so-so multiplat experience is done you can buy a real game ;)

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 12/28/2009 11:15:28 PM

8 up, 0 down

rogers71
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:28:56 PM
Reply

2 years ago I would have went with 360 because that is what all my friends had but I got a PS3 at launch and have converted all my friends. We are now playing all games on the PS3. SWEET

6 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:37:17 PM

peer pressure ftw

7 up, 0 down

Alienange
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:36:27 PM
Reply

Since the 360 sounds like a turbine running at full speed I choose to buy my multi plats on the PS3. That, and trophies pawn gamer points any day of the week.

4 up, 0 down

___________
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:07:57 AM

just install them to the HDD, than it runs quiet as a kitten.

0 up, 1 down

Alienange
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:13:47 AM

Maybe, but I sure as heck wasn't about to buy a Pro or Elite model 360. Bought me an Arcade a while back for $150. That's all I am willing to pay for the couple exclusives I wanted to try.

3 up, 1 down

SvenMD
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 8:48:40 AM

Yeah, I've toyed with the idea of getting a cheap 360 over and over. But I've already played through Halo 3 with friends...and the only other 360 game I really want to play is Gears (Which I REALLY do want to play). But to me, it's just not worth it at all to actually buy the system for that.

1 up, 0 down

Alienange
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 9:56:57 AM

@ SvenMD - I hear you. It took me a while and a great discount at Future Shop to get me to buy one. There's no way this thing is worth 250-300. Funny thing, the day after I bought it, my brother's 360 red ringed. I was scared silly by that. I thought RROD was something that happened to "other people."

Anyways, Halo3 is pants. Not a good single player experience at all so I wouldn't judge other 360 games based on that. I'm not feeding the MS Live monster either so I can't talk about the online.

As for Gears, it's a good shooter until you get to the 'timed' missions and stupid berzerkers that just don't do what they're supposed to. Of course I was more interested in Mass Effect, Lost Odyssey and Crackdown than those so...

5 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, December 28, 2009 @ 11:54:24 PM
Reply

If multi-plats use the PS3 as the primary development platform they generally turn out better for everyone. Even the 360 version benefits.

3 up, 0 down

___________
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:07:25 AM
Reply

quite simple really.
only 2 questions need to be asked.
1 are you going to be playing it online?
if so, which service do you prefer?
2 which version is cheaper?
for some reason 360 games are always cheaper than PS3 games.
normally ps3 games on release are 120 bucks, but every single 360 game i have bought on release has been 100 bucks or less.
ive never picked up a ps3 game on release for 100 bucks.
one thing i really wish i kept my 360 for.
20 bucks may not be much but when your buying on average 1 game a week, 20 bucks over the period of 1 year sums up to be one hefty check.

0 up, 0 down

SvenMD
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 8:52:49 AM

That may be wherever you live - but where I live, both PS3 and 360 games are $59.99 on day one. So price really doesn't matter too much.

As far as online, again, you just have to peer pressure your friends into getting it for the PS3 and your problem is solved.

2 up, 0 down

CONTRABAND
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 2:43:27 PM

wow really? in the states the games are the same, $60

2 up, 0 down

LittleBigMidget
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:16:28 AM
Reply

Why was I downvoted? I buy the PS3 version anyway so whats wrong with that? Its not like I said "Oh yeah 360 versions are always better but I buy the PS3 version anyway.

1 up, 0 down

Naztycuts
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:40:27 AM

"Alot of people endup buying multiplats on 360 for Live,Sharper Graphics,and extra content."

If I were a gambling man I'd bet the blatant lies about Live you told got you those thumbs down Pilgrim.
They buy the games for 360 b/c they jumped the gun and didn't wait on the ps3 and many have no choice but to try and justify that purchase as if the xbox is worth defending.

4 up, 2 down

Alienange
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 10:28:27 AM

@ Naztycuts - You know what's sad though? People do buy multiplats for Live. Not that Live is better, but that they have paid for Live and don't want to feel stupid about it. If they buy games to play on Live then they think they made the right choice.

3 up, 0 down

inkme101
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:25:28 AM
Reply

to ___________

what kinda bucks r u spending? where u from that the exchange rate is double the us dollar?

Last edited by inkme101 on 12/29/2009 12:26:41 AM

0 up, 0 down

Naztycuts
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 12:42:00 AM

He's an Aussie with very optimistic and positive responses to all of the topics here at psxextreme.

6 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 2:32:20 AM

lulz @ Nasty

3 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 4:14:56 PM

Yea he's a real bright and shining example of what it means to be the happiest person on earth. Hahaha

1 up, 0 down

LittleBigMidget
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 1:04:52 AM
Reply

Really? Because I know lots of people who buy multiplayer multiplats for the 360 because them thinking Live is better

2 up, 2 down

telly
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 2:03:38 AM
Reply

Usually a case-by-case decision for me. I just read reviews from all the big sites and see which version they say is best, and then presto, that's the one I buy. Ben brings up a good point though -- this is nothing like the legendary rivalry if SNES and Genesis. Back then, if you weren't careful, you would get stuck with an absolutely wretched port of a game clearly designed to run on the other system. And I know I for one had no idea what the hell the Internet was circa 1992, so it was pretty tricky figuring out which system had the best version. Electronic Gaming Monthly was VERY handy in those days :)

Today, while one console may well have a slight edge in graphics/features/downloadable exclusives/etc., it's really not a big deal generally speaking. For example, everyone made a huge deal about the exclusive downloadable content 360 users got with Fallout 3. Well, I missed that game last year and finally got around to the "Game of the Year Edition" a couple months ago on the 360. While the DLC is decent, it just doesn't add much at all to what was already a complete game. The developers literally re-wrote the ending to allow the DLC to happen, and while it was sort of fun to run around for a few more missions, I can safely say PS3 owners who missed the DLC should certainly NOT miss any sleep over it.

If you have the option of choosing between a 360 and PS3 version, by all means, see which one has the edge. But in my experience, the supposed "edge" is never a big deal. Both consoles have great versions of multi-plat games these days -- stress out about something else. Just my two cents.

4 up, 0 down

Ricochet
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 2:56:12 AM
Reply

Thanks to the internet, we are able to "properly" discern what port is worth buying for the PS3 and what isn't. Tell us your input once you get the copy of Bayonetta for the 360 Ben!

0 up, 0 down

WolfCrimson
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 3:46:06 AM
Reply

That non-slim* PS3 in the pic, now she's a beauty! ;D *looks over to his own non-slim PS3* Hey, how you doin'?

*Never call a lady "fat", use "non-slim"

7 up, 0 down

TheJackyl
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 6:00:40 AM

How about supple or voluptuous?

2 up, 0 down

www
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 6:26:43 AM

Wolfcrimson, have you been playing Tekken 6?

0 up, 0 down

Fane1024
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 4:54:40 PM

She's got all sorts of junk in her trunk.

And she runs hot.

1 up, 0 down

www
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 6:28:19 AM
Reply

I have all multiplats on PS3 simply cause of FREEEEEEEE online ;)

7 up, 1 down

Hezzron
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 10:22:38 AM

I tend to buy all my games on the PS3 for that very same reason, free online. I have a 360, but I refuse to pay for online play.

The only time I'll pick up a multi-plat on the 360 is if it's real cheap and doesn't have any MP (or any good MP).

All that technical gab about graphics issues doesn't mean much to me.

4 up, 0 down

isaya85
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 8:28:18 AM
Reply

My console is ps3 I'm a big fanboy I'll stick with Sony to the very end, I do most my gaming on ps3, I do however like the xbox it has a few games I like can't wait to get ME2, I think xbox is a nice system but I can live without it I'm a playstation guy.

5 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 10:00:23 AM

I like it when I see comments like this one. This is a person who does prefer one console over the other, but is not so ignorant to say that "all other consoles suck!" I cannot stand it when I see stupid comments that trash other systems completely. You can hate a console without saying that it is a garbage console. All consoles in the market are selling like hotcakes because they all have something to offer. Forget the stupidity that says you aren't a fan of a console unless you sever all ties to other consoles. I'm a gaming fan. Just like this guy. I don't care how I get it, as long as I get it. A lot like sex...wait...nevermind.

4 up, 0 down

bridgera
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 11:34:41 AM

I like it when the fanboys say all Multiplats on the PS3 suck, but are awesome on the 360.

Then they point to a video that ZOOMS IN on multiplats to show slightly more pixelated details on the PS3 (for say RE5).

Oh yes, those screen shots we had to still capture then ZOOM IN ON THE PICTURE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE, really make the difference between a game sucking and being awesome.

Then anytime a multiplat looks better on the PS3, they merely say the game sucks entirely.

On Topic: Some of the older multiplat games that didn't have trophies, but had achievements make me lean toward the 360 side for those.

2 up, 1 down

Milo
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 1:46:22 PM

lmaoooooo @ AudiaK " a lot like sex...wait...nevermind" You made my day XD

1 up, 0 down

Arvis
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 3:33:34 PM
Reply

Actually, I'd make the argument that Arkham Asylum IS significantly better on the PS3. Not because of graphics, but because of content. The Joker challenges are awesome!

-Arvis

1 up, 0 down

dachemists
Tuesday, December 29, 2009 @ 8:42:39 PM
Reply

i've choosen PS since launch, and will continue to choose PS, now as for a 360 or PS3 versions, i cant say, i dont really want to own a 360, i'd rather spend $50 on a something (real), than the ability to play games online,

i know when they port games from 360 to ps3(vice versa) and they dont put the time into it (telling me, 'take what u get ps3 buyers', plus HALO developers have jumped ship, and that really tells me something, if ur #1 title is starting to fall apart (the hardware too since launch), then things arent as good as the numbers show

i'd rather have a game/system that lasts 10yrs or so

0 up, 1 down

Deleted User
Saturday, January 02, 2010 @ 1:04:46 AM

you should get your facts straight... Microsoft allowed Bungie to go independent and most of those "identical looking games" have better frame rates on the 360... some engines just run better on it's hardware that's just the way stuff works

0 up, 0 down

just2skillf00l
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 12:04:30 AM
Reply

Don't own a 360 but from what I can tell, the graphics from multiplats are basically identical. However, when it comes to playing online, PS3 is free sir. And free is very appealing! But to all their own...but who can just stroll by something free!

Last edited by just2skillf00l on 12/30/2009 12:07:01 AM

1 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Saturday, January 02, 2010 @ 1:01:34 AM

there are benefits to paying though I would rather have free online gaming

0 up, 0 down

Robochic
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 12:35:28 AM
Reply

With me doesn't matter I only buy for my Big fat PS3 :)
Just trying to convince my friends to only buy PS3 for multi so I have some more friends to play online :) but apparently they like Live better :(
I honestly cant' see the difference in quality for multi but get back to me when FF13 comes out.

1 up, 0 down

Arvis
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 3:03:37 PM

Yay Snoopy!

-Arvis

0 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, December 30, 2009 @ 5:35:22 PM
Reply

I still see Final Fantasy and Metal Gear, even Tekken as franchises home to Playstation. I say this because they offer preferential treatment to the Playstation platforms. Honestly, can a Final Fantasy fan anticipate, or rely on, a non-playstation unit to deliver their cutting edge games with new releases? Look at MGS for example. Xbox fans celebrated a small victory by having MGS2 ported over to Xbox several years ago. Yet, MGS, MGS3 and MGS4 are no where to be seen. They're just now getting served up a multi-platform MGS spin-off series. All the while Peace Walker is only for PSP, and the demo is fantastic. Also, seeing that the listed titles are created out of Japan I anticipate a losing effort on MS's end to try and secure these titles on their platform in the coming years. I understand that these third-party publishers ultimately control the release of their games, but I see these incremental 360 releases as a supplemental effort to sap a little extra revenue rather than a serious initiative to broaden their core audience.

0 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Saturday, January 02, 2010 @ 1:00:18 AM

It's not like Peace Walker has a comparible platform to port to

0 up, 0 down

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