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Are We Bored With Real-Time RPG Mechanics Yet?

I believe my first RPG was Hero's Quest on my old Tandy/IBM. Since that time, I really have no idea how many RPGs I've played, but I can tell you I played about 25 of them on the PS1 and PC during my college years (oh, shut up) and although I basically try to play any great game that comes out, I still have a soft spot for the role-playing genre.

Now, one of the reasons I adored the PS1/PC era is because I could strike a really nice balance between real-time and turn-based combat mechanics. This continued into the PS2 era, too. For instance, I could go and play Suikoden III, Legaia 2, and the old-school Legend of Dragoon on the PS1, and then I could play Kingdom Hearts, Valkyrie Profile and any number of the Forgotten Realms RPGs (Balurs Gate 2, Icewindale, etc.), and get very different experiences. And of course, I realize that with the advancement of the industry, most all developers wanted to move past turn-based, which many began to consider antiquated but I've always said offers more in the way of strategy and other valuable elements you can't find in real-time. Despite my personal feelings, I've played plenty of fantastic RPGs that use real-time or real-time/turn-based hybrid battle systems. And I completely understand the need to push forward with new ideas and continually embrace new concepts.

However, has anyone noticed that with the complete lack of turn-based (on consoles, at any rate; I know there are many on portables), the RPGs are starting to feel awfully similar to one another? I think three RPGs sort of leap to mind; the first being Final Fantasy XII, which was the first true departure from turn-based for the franchise, not counting the MMO that was FFXI. After FFXII, I started to notice that a lot of RPGs were using variations of that same system...and now, years later, I play Dragon Age: Origins, which is great...but still basically the exact same mechanic as FFXII and in fact, most other Western RPGs of the past decade. Then we get White Knight Chronicles ths year; I've only played a little of it at a friend's place, but that was enough to see it's basically a carbon copy of everything we've seen before. And what will Final Fantasy XIII and Resonance of Fate be like? Oh, I expect some differences and variations, of course, but hey, it's all starting to blend together.

The last turn-based RPG of the generation - I think - was Lost Odyssey. I loved that damn game. No, I don't want all my RPGs to be turn-based but I think it can have its place in the genre, even today. I refuse to believe I'm the only one who loved LO and I refuse to believe that we've fully stretched the limits of turn-based. I honestly believe we left it behind too quickly; in this rapidly advancing industry of ours, I really don't think we gave it enough time. Think about how much can be done with it! I know developers don't care, anymore. I know we'll likely never see it again. But everyone always tells me that people were getting "bored" with the turn-based RPGs of yesteryear, which is one of the biggest reasons we "advanced" into real-time styles. ...okay, but aren't we bored with these "new" mechanics now? Aren't we sick of it? I'd like just one developer to acknowledge that there's still a huge audience for turn-based, and that the genre is once again growing stagnant with all these supposed improvements.

2/17/2010 10:04:35 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (129 posts)

perestroika
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:41:12 PM
Reply

the more rpg's with real time combat the better. i really dont like turn based gameplay [not only rpgs but strategy games too].

i can only remember playing 3 turn based rgps the first two fallout games, and anachronox. anachronox is a game i liked, but didnt finish because its turn based. and sure, you can get used to it, but i cant stand it. i'm so used to playing games where i can move around freely, turn based feels like a step backwards to me.

obviously there are many , many people that love turn based gameplay stuff, and even though i dont like it, i think its good to have something for everyone.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:50:22 PM

How can you say you liked a game than within the same sentence inform us that you never finished it because of the gameplay?

That's like me raving about a movie and then telling you all I couldn't finish it due to the editing.

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bigrailer19
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:00:54 PM

LV-

I understand what he is saying. He may very well have liked the story and the direction the game was going but due to the gameplay he couldn't play through it.

I know a lot of RPG's are awesome games that are turned based like Valkyria Chronicles. At the same time I barely got through the demo because the turn-based isnt entirely for me. Just cause I dont like the controls don't mean I cant appreciate the game.

Last edited by bigrailer19 on 2/17/2010 11:06:21 PM

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:08:42 PM

Either way, I'm so angry at his comment I don't even know what to say.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:13:00 PM

That's not what he said trailer. Don't finish his thoughts for him. I took what he said and asked for an explanation. We're not discussing controls here, were discussing battle mechanics.

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bigrailer19
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:25:58 PM

Yeah sorry I should have edited that better, I didnt mean to say controls. Either way I know what he means. I should have let him finish though sorry.

I was just saying that if im catching his jist then I feel the same way. I appreciate that gameplay and some games that offer that style. I simply have a hard time connecting though.

Btw you've given me a nickname. I like!



Last edited by bigrailer19 on 2/17/2010 11:28:41 PM

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Akuma07
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:24:45 AM

Real-time is seen as the 'future' i guess.

I personally miss all the turn based FF games, they were real cool, especially the ATB ones.

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perestroika
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 3:22:33 PM

about anachranox. i loved the setting of the game, and the dialog, the story [at least what i got into so far, but i really hated the gameplay. i dont think there is nothing wrong with that, and no, i cant really say if overall game is good or bad because i didnt finish it, and of course, i have my weird distaste for turn based gameplay.

does that make any sense? or i'm just at explaning things? :)

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Riku994
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:43:15 PM
Reply

I want a LoD game, be it a seuql prequel or remake, that has the exact same battle system as the original. ADDITIONS FTW!

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WolfCrimson
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:24:18 AM

Hu.. Ha .... Ha... HHYAA!! VOLCANO!

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Banky A
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 7:09:44 PM

Blazing Dynamo!!!!!!!!

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Zemus101
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:43:27 PM
Reply

I am certainly not bored with RPGs at the moment. I grew up playing the likes of Chrono Trigger/Cross and lots of Final Fantasy, as well as Front Mission and the like. Today though, I find it just as varied. I can play Fallout or Borderlands, Dragon Age or White Knight Chronicles, Crisis Core or Dissidia on the PSP. With FFXIII and Resonance of Fate (as you mentioned Ben) coming up soon I don't think I"ll be bored for awhile. As for any games that are going to drastically change from those I've mentioned, I have no idea. What will FF Versus be like? What about a new Kingdom Hearts? Front Mission Evolved? No idea... hopefully it keeps changing as we go along and the RPGs stay varied and fresh.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:46:09 PM

I have no problem with there being little to no change. WRPGs are a change and I don't like them. FFVersus has already been described as an action RPG, bla.

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Beamboom
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:23:42 PM

Just a thought, doesn't Fallout3 with it's VATS attack system have a turn-based flavor to it?

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:43:40 PM
Reply

I grew up an avid turn based gamer and having said that I LOVED FFXII's battle mechanics. The one thing that irks me about WKC is its battle system is very similar but lacks the polish and depth of XII.

Turn based isn't dead, it's just not flourishing as it once was. Sales of turn based games surely don't reflect that consumers are bored so I see no reason for the gameplay style to die. It's quite prevalent on handhelds.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:44:10 PM
Reply

From day one. When I started playing these RPGs with battles that felt like Street Fighter matches, I was disgusted. I don't find those types of battles fun one bit. Not for an RPG.

I agree that there should be strategy to an RPG. Lost Odyssey is a brilliant example of an RPG that was turn based and not only involved some serious strategy in many of the battles, but made those battles look a ton cooler than the fast paced, incomprehensive camera angles and out of control support characters found in the "new" RPG models.

FFXII and WKC seem to try and strike an easy medium between the two, but I'd rather just have really cool turn based fights. When I first saw Kaim pound the ground as he ran towards the enemy, I was in heaven. You can't do 'cool' like that in real time battles. And I think that it sucks that games like this are near non-existent now.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:48:37 PM

Turned Based = Chess
Real Time = Checkers

Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 2/17/2010 10:48:46 PM

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:53:53 PM

I'd agree, but checkers doesn't suck.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:00:14 PM

Agreed, it has its place. In between more serious things and against simple minded people (mainly kids).

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Highlander
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:06:37 PM

Of course checkers doesn't suck, but neither does Chess.

Just as you can't really say that either turn based or real-time combat systems suck.

But the industry has made it clear that turn based on home consoles does apparently suck, and is not going to happen. What I find odd about it is that the hand helds are games on the move when you have short bursts of time, and consoles at home are for longer gaming sessions. Considering how you play real-time combat vs how you play turn based, you would think that the hand helds might be better suited to real-time and home consoles to turn based - simply because of the time factor.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:11:26 PM

Aren't Checkers and Chess both turn based?

Anyways, I agree that both are good. Replacing turn-based with real time is, as Ben suggests, getting tiresome. Unfortunately when it's time to shop around, you don't have the choice right now, and that, is what sucks.

Last edited by Alienange on 2/17/2010 11:11:51 PM

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:15:52 PM

Good point Highlander in regards to the time issue with handhelds.

Of course chess/checkers are both turned based games but they're vastly different in regards to complexity. That was the point I was making in comparing...well you know what I meant!

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Highlander
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:22:19 PM

Checkers to me flows a lot more than chess. Unless you are a novice playing a 'pretty good' club player, the game will be slow as each player consideres their next move. Checkers flows as a player executes a series of jumps to capture pieces. In checkers you spend less time considering your next move because all pieces are the same and move the same, you are playing in a more reactive and less pro-active manner. Chess is all about planning and proactive attack or defense.

I think the analogy of Chess vs Checkers is very apt.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:30:12 PM

So I get a cookie?

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:30:14 PM

Nah. You're talking about the speed of the games. Turn-based rpgs aren't necessarily slow. In fact I'm pretty sure Lost Odyssey had me sweating a lot more than any Tales game ever did.

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Highlander
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:56:18 PM

LV get's a cookie.

It's not the Speed of play Alienage, I think checkers is a completely different style of play. In checkers there is so much less to consider, each piece moves the same way, and unlike chess, you can chain your moves together when taking several pieces at once. Whenever I've played checkers the pace has been very back and forth, and reaction driven, there is more immediacy and less forethought in checkers compared to chess.

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Hezzron
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:46:01 PM
Reply

Turned based gameplay came about out of necessity. The older gaming systems couldn't handle any real-time processing. The industry is always pushing for realism, weather it be graphics, sound and gameplay. Turn based battles just don't appear to be real enough.

Is turned based gameplay fun? Depends on what you like. I personally could play Civilization until I pass out. Will developers keep making turned-based games? Depends on how they sell, which at the moment doesn't seem to be too well.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:01:48 PM

I don't care how it came about, it equals strategic gameplay versus button mashing.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:12:21 PM

Ah Civilization... not an RPG, but definitely turn-based heaven.

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Bromus398
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 10:59:52 PM
Reply

I'm all for keeping rpg's diversified gameplay-wise. I was raised on turn-based jrpgs (I had the first Final Fantasy when iI was 3), and while the market certainly became a bit of an saturation in that style, I still prefer some good old fashioned turn-based level grinding.

FFXII was fine for using a more MMORPG battle style, I feel like it only worked because of how quick and energetic the whole thing felt. Couldn't say the same for Dragon Age, the combat always felt FFXII trudging through a swamp.

I'm hoping FFXIII's battle system works out to be awesome, though I honestly wouldn't mind a return to some more turn-based FF action. This whole influence of "inventive" western rpg styles on my jrpgs is starting to kill me. Can't say I hope they make another Fallout 3 styled game, I was a bigger fan of Fallout 1 & 2's style. Though I guess those and the Diablo series were the only western rpgs I dig on. Not big on Dungeons and Dragons rule based stuff at all, or really most of Bioware's stuff outside of the first Knights of the Old Republic.

But I digress and ranted long enough. In summation, i'm happy has long as they keep making a wide variety of rpg battle styles (and don't pollute my favorite series with them).

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WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:01:12 PM
Reply

DEATH TO REAL TIME in RPGs!

That is all.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:13:35 PM

*grabs pitchfork*

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:16:56 PM

Ya let's rape all of them!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:20:18 PM

Ok! You start!

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:48:41 PM

::hijacks school bus::

Okay your turn.

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Vitron
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 2:05:21 AM

Sigh... you guys are insane, *cocks shotgun*

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Scarecrow
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:02:27 PM
Reply

They're both good systems
What I like 'bout turn based though is that you can control all of your characters

I think the problem with turn-based is that there are limits to it (attack, wait, attack, wait)

They can improve it of course (like FFX did) where you can attack more and more times depending on how fast your characters were (this adds strategy and more complexity).

I'd definitely like to see it back though.

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main_event05
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:19:20 AM

True that. Can you guess how much magic i used in FF12 (Besides the espers). None, well except outside of battle to cure. The attacking sucked, and gambits made it worse.

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Kevadu
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 2:22:47 AM

I used magic all the time in FFXII. It was very useful, especially after you learn to regenerate MP just by walking around...

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SvenMD
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 9:18:13 AM

I never used magick either. The gambit system just takes over and you smack the hell out of everyone.

It takes TIME to use magick, and by then, most of the enemies are dead.

The only magick that was worthwhile was one that hit tons of enemies and you would regain your MP by the damage to multiple enemies....but unfortunately NOT WORTH THE EFFORT.

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Scarecrow
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 9:55:23 AM

Magic was awesome in that game. I used it all the time

Then again, I made sure to magic up my characters as much as possible. Lots of damage

You could make your character whatever you wanted to make your character into, in FFXII. Loved that.

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piratedrunk
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:07:04 PM
Reply

I'm certainly not bored with real-time but I would like to see more turn based. The more variation there is the better. I really like the look of the battles in FFXIII personally I am glad they change it up all the time.

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Milonakis
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:08:13 PM
Reply

Maybe they should make God of War turn based.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:17:47 PM

Welcome back spammer. I see you dodged the ban hammer last night.

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Juanalf
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:15:07 AM

@LV

That was unnecessary and pretty ironic considering this entire thread is filled with your broccoli alien.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:31:32 AM

Prevalent posts by the same user is not spamming.

Spamming can be one or many posts which flood a thread with the hopes of disrupting conversation. I've never done that and I'm damn sexy too.

Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 2/18/2010 1:33:33 AM

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SvenMD
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 9:21:30 AM

LV never spams

Everything is VERY important.

Last edited by SvenMD on 2/18/2010 9:22:15 AM

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kraygen
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:13:35 PM
Reply

Personally i think that these half turn based, half real time rpgs are less realistic than doing a game one way or the other.

In turn based its clear that whether you are hit or not, when attacked is based on your characters stats, how well they can dodge or avoid that particular hit and the same for when your character is attacking.

In a real time action game your hit is dependent upon where your character is on the screen compared to your opponent and whether or not he/she can "physically" reach the opponent.

The problem with this mixture of real time and turn based as in White knight, is that whether your attack is successful or not is determined by your stats as in a turn based game, but on screen, visually you can be no where near your opponent, but still hit because location has nothing to do with your success. So with this setup it seems to me that it would appear very unrealistic because your character with an apparent short range attack and hit something a mile away.

I feel either one or the other can work well for those who enjoy that type of gameplay, personally i like them both. I enjoy white knight very much but would prefer that it was all turn based as the combat visuals can be a little silly due to its current setup. Anyway i agree with Ben, some of us love turn based and i'd love to see it come back strong. Strategy rules.

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spiderboi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 3:19:53 AM

Off-topic: nice avatar :)

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Robochic
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:14:13 PM
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To me it depends on the game, like baulders gate no way you could have that turn based but FF crystal chronical games are great as turn based can't see it any other way.

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Geobaldi
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:49:20 PM

Baldur's Gate was originally turn based. And much more enjoyable that way in my opinion.

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Kevadu
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 2:23:58 AM

Baldur's Gate? What on earth are you talking about? It was always realtime with pausing.

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Geobaldi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 4:49:10 AM

Yeah the game was realtime primarily, but the way I played it I kept it in turn based mode for most of the game. You had the option of either playstyle.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:17:22 PM
Reply

No Ben. No. You are not the only one who LOVED Lost Odyssey. It was actually due to your constant raving about it that I bought and played it. The game's a turn-based masterpiece.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:18:55 PM

If I hadn't bricked my 360 modding the hec out of it I'd have taken Ben's advice as well. I need a t-shirt that says "I bought a 360 and all I got was Banjo Kazooie"

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Highlander
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:19:38 PM
Reply

Turn based allows time to think and plan, you can be losing the fight and alter your strategy to win. You can manipulate the system and how you use it to your advantage.

In real time systems there is a large element of button mashing and timing. It's reaction time more than strategy. Because it's real time you don't have the time to pause before your next move and think about it, you don't have time to rewrite your strategy and battle plan half way through when you analyze your enemy only to find out that it's weak against fire, but nearly immune to ice. In a real time system if you try to change your strategy mid-stream your enemies are still whacking away at you. In a turn based system you have time to think without the pressure of knowing your characters are standing there like punching bags while you think.

I don't understand why turn based as a game mechanic is dead. I was never sure why the impression that it was somehow boring became prevalent. Just because gamers who already don't like a genre, continue not to like a genre, does that mean we should completely re-work a genre or abandon it? If we do, what about the gamers that DO like the genre? Oh, that's right, they're screwed, change or die so to speak. What a bunch of BS that is.

The video game market is beg enough that there is room for many genre and many styles of play. Why do JRPGs have to go realtime? Isn't there room for both? There's room for first and third person action games. There's room for more than one kind of fighting game, more than one kind of racing game. Turn based RPGs are part of the very foundations of gaming today, and yet we're supposed to just toss them aside because real-time is inherently better and turn based is inherently boring and sucks?

What utter crap. If this is the way gaming is going to go we'd better get used to a hell of a lot more sequels and clones and fewer games each year since there. Mediocre, safe games that appeal to the masses but do little more than hit the tick boxes on the feature list and get decent, but not outstanding reviews.

Yay.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:23:27 PM

Reading what you wrote made me think of Mega Man for some reason. They tried all kinds of things with Mega Man. They completely dropped the play mechanics that made the series beloved in the first place. What's happening now? Back they go to side-scrolling 8-bit action and people are loving it all over again.

I'm kinda hoping that's what's happening with RPGs.

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Highlander
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:28:28 PM

oops - typo alert!

"The video game market is beg enough that there is room for many genre and many styles of play."

Should be

"The video game market is BIG enough that there is room for many genre and many styles of play."

That's what I was hoping too Alienage. I have hoped (and still cling to a tiny shred of hope) that things will "come full circle" and turn based will make a come back. However, I am not sure the hope is warranted any more.

Last edited by Highlander on 2/17/2010 11:29:51 PM

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:32:01 PM

Just look at the latest Sonic 4. Ben loves to campaign for innovation but sometimes developers just need to realize certain games have already been perfected gameplay wise and build around that idea.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:33:42 PM

Yeah... and that come back HAS to be on the consoles. I tried some of the hand-held stuff and only Dragon Quest IX did it for me.

I'm sure they'll come around...

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SnipeySnake
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:29:42 PM
Reply

I like active time bar (ATB) system rpgs.

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Alienange
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:33:54 PM

I like you. You're funny.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:44:03 PM

I like you, you're cute naked.

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BikerSaint
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:38:41 PM
Reply

Ben,
You had a Tandy too? Cool!!!!

PSSST, speaking of Tandy's, I'll bet that a few of the youngest gamers her, probably think we're talking about Peanut Butter Tastykakes.

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Roach721
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 4:58:08 AM

I used to have a Tandy 1000 RL,leisure suit larry2 and startcontrol were some good classics.How about the Commodore 64 huh.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:17:40 AM

I know most people have no idea what I'm talking about. LOL

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Nerull
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:44:23 PM
Reply

That mechanic is why I love dragon age and why I could stand FFXIIs story.
I can see the desire for the feeling of strategy that comes with turn-based games tho. I've been playing some bloodbowl since its the only game gw will release as a direct video game adaptation since they can't keep their physical specialist games afloat. Good and tile-based just like tactics. I'd love dawn of war a lot more if it was like valkryie chronicles.

For the most part tho I think the hybrid mechanic is the best option because it gives players the choice of both. Plus it looks more natural, which often spells immersion, than characters trying to be hyper-dramatic badasses that spend the majority of any battle like they've grown roots.

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rossinator_99
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:45:04 PM
Reply

i'm on my second play-through of ffviii since i got it off the psn a couple of weeks ago (mind you i played the crap out of it on the ps1). turn based is what i first check when i research a new rpg. i'm probably going to have to replay ffvii after this just to get my fix of turn based fun. any chance they'll release ffix on the psn? i never got past the first few hours on that one for some crazy reason. sacrilige i know!

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:50:06 PM

Eventually they will, I'm sure of it however it's going to be a very large file to download. I suggest you pick up a used PS2 (you can get them for under 50 dollars) and play tons of turned based classics till it blows up.

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rossinator_99
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:02:07 AM

forget the used ps2, i have a 60 gigger. i've heard a lot of good things about persona 4... you got any other recommendations? oh, and how big can it be compared to ffviii? weren't they both 4 discs?

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:10:36 AM

FFVIII is roughly 1.8 gigs on the PSN. FFX would be at least double that size if it were released. Oh and the PS2's games came on DVD not CDs like the PS1 so FFX came on one DVD while FFVIII came on multiple CDs.

I suggest you check out these PS2 games:

Suikoden III, IV, V
Dragon Quest VIII
Shadow Hearts Covenant
FFX, FFX2, FFXII

That should keep you busy for a while.

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WolfCrimson
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:29:02 AM

Forget Shadow Hearts Covenant, go play the first one.

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Geobaldi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:39:28 AM

"Oh and the PS2's games came on DVD not CDs like the PS1.."

Later on that's true but there were CD based games being released in the PS2s' infancy.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:55:58 AM

I don't recall any, can you name a few?

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Geobaldi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:58:21 AM

I got rid of most of the ones I had so I can't remember a whole lot of them anymore. But I remember: Silpheed, Mister Mosquito, Crazy Taxi, Armored Core 2, SSX, Frequency, Unreal Tournament, Tekken Tag Tournament, Marvel vs Capcom 2, Street Fighter EX3, Star Wars Starfighter, Dynasty Warrior 2. That's just the ones that I remember having and/or still own. I'm sure there were plenty more besides those.

Last edited by Geobaldi on 2/18/2010 2:01:42 AM

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:43:27 AM

I'll check those out Geo. I never realized the PS2 had CD games available for it. I picked up my PS2 in 2001 if that matters.

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gumbi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:21:23 AM

ICO was on a CD

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:38:13 AM

Biker Saint currently has my copy or I'd check.

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rossinator_99
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 11:20:21 AM

sorry, i was talking about ff9, not ff10. but thanks for the list. i hope i can rent some of these from blockbuster online.

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Geobaldi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 11:48:29 AM

"ICO was on a CD"

The European version is on a DVD though for some reason.

Last edited by Geobaldi on 2/18/2010 11:48:54 AM

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DarthNemesis
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:55:48 PM
Reply

I prefer the real time combat of Dark Cloud,Rogue Galaxy and Fallout 3 over turn based any day.I still consider FF12 and WKC to have turn based combat systems.You just have the freedom to move around instead of not controlling the character.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:02:49 AM

Rogue Galaxy is the one game Level5 made that I hated. I bought it the day it came out and sold it a few days later on Ebay.

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Geobaldi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:41:01 AM

And I did the same thing with the first Dark Cloud. Just couldn't get into it. Now part 2 was completely opposite.

Can't wait to see their new game The Another World. Studio Ghibli is teaming up with them to make it. And just about all of their stuff I've liked.

Last edited by Geobaldi on 2/18/2010 12:43:38 AM

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Snaaaake
Wednesday, February 17, 2010 @ 11:57:53 PM
Reply

I wouldn't necessary bored of turn based or real time but I want more or less equal amount of both.

And the problem is that real time is dominating the market now.

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___________
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:14:59 AM
Reply

i always hated turn based combat because there was no skill, or user input envolved what so ever.
its just do your attack, than while the enemy is doing his you cant do anything but let him finish and hope it does not do too much damage.
there needs to be some input there, some skill.
its all based on luck, not skill and i hate that.
and the attacks that miss, that REALLY! pissed me off.
its just random, there is no system calculating which attacks hit, and which dont its just pick of the draw.
if i die it should be because of me, NOT! because of the software.

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main_event05
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:22:17 AM

That is a serious claim there. Turn based requires far more skill than just running around pushing buttons. I don't even know where to begin to try to correct you.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:23:16 AM

Town Moron strikes again!!!!

I'm sure you didn't bother to read any of the other posts before smashing your keyboard. Had you read a couple you may have noticed a conversation about chess/checkers. Turn Based is like chess, you know your opponent moves after you move and so on. With this knowledge you have an almost infinite approach to the game and can plan out your future moves based on how you feel your opponent may play. There is an extremely complex level of thinking needed to master this style of gameplay just like in Turn Based.

RealTime leads to far more button smashing and "luck" than I've ever witnessed during Turn Based gameplay.

Okay go back to your keyboard smashing and let me know when Roach shows up to defend you.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:35:23 AM

Limited: No moron comments, please.

Blank line, here's a general rule- if you don't know something about a certain subject, you can't lecture other people about it. Seriously, that paragraph makes a veteran RPG laugh...you seem to know absolutely nothing about this.

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Snaaaake
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:44:30 AM

Turn based require no skill?
I think you mean turn based without active time.

Gosh I miss that kind of JRPG a lot, I still remember how fast I press my controller when I was playing FFX-2 because you really need to be fast in that game.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 12:56:54 AM

Fair enough, you let me get away with it for far too long. My new term for him will be Puffy Muff.

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Shams
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:49:36 AM

When it comes to handling many multiple playable characters, then it is only feasible to turn-based, or at least a hybrid of sorts, or like something like planning, arranging and executing like in RTS's. Such games obviously can become exponentially more complex. I'm sure their are some tactical shooters, although I haven't played any, that allow you to control squads, but obviously there's a cap on strategy in the thick of action, when there's no waiting for real time.

But on the other extreme, playing as a single character, like in action-adventurers, you have the added dimension of timing. So between that, knowing what order to pick off enemies, what attack and defense patterns to use against them, knowing how to use the terrain, and level design to your advantage, and when to use items, and upgrades, real time stuff doesn't have to be button mashing, either. I guess Demon Soul's did that well, though I didn't really get in to it. I am a fan of fast paced hack'n slash like NG, so I just play those instead. So I kinda understand if people just prefer turn-based for their RPG fix.

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spiderboi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 3:30:38 AM

-1
Try playing FFX and using a character's heavy recovery move when the enemy has a pattern of releasing a devastating attack every 2 turns. I guess its safe to assume that if you died doing that, it'd be your fault :p

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Roach721
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 5:04:59 AM

You just don't give up Limited, you know if i bumped into you in the street i'd have you crying like a little girl.Bullies like you are usually big girly men.lol ur insecure just like my girl.lol

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:12:15 AM

@ Roach

You're physically threatening me and I'm the bully?

Hopefully you're profession (if you have one) isn't profiling if all you can come up with is "big girly men".

I'll continue to point out the absurdity in ----'s posts when needed and you can continue to act like the big brother of the internet and come to -----'s aid when you feel he's being "bullied"

Welcome to the internet where opinions differ and puffy muffs are abound.

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___________
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:15:38 AM

WTF?
how am i lecturing?
im just explaining why ive never liked it, and maybe that explains why i never liked chess.
i dont have the Patience.
having a complete cock as a tradesmen, and a even bigger cock of a boss did that to me.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:39:31 AM

/facepalm

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:19:45 AM

You weren't explaining why you didn't like it; you said it required no skill. You bashed the hell out of a system you don't understand because you "don't have the patience."

That's the problem.

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Nynja
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:33:42 AM

Guys, everyone is entitled to their opinion. No need to bash people for having different interests or expressing their view.

That said, I must say had Blank Line (_________) worded his comments differently I don't think some posters would have taken such offense to his/her post.

Turn-based RPGs are actually very strategic and challenging when developed properly. When strategy is not needed you are either playing a poorly balanced game or your party level is out of the range of their or the enemies ability.

Stating it does not require skill is far from the truth. I do see your point, but again this would depend on the quality of the game. The elements involved in turn-based RPGs heavily rely on user input. It also requires knowledge of the situation as well as the abilities of your party and enemies. I'm not sure if you consider this a skill, but those who disagree with you obviously feel it is. Properly managing a parties HP & MP effectively to dispatch enemies efficiently can be a rewarding challenge.

Knowing the odds of whether or not a particular attack will strike or miss the enemy is part of the strategy. Recovering from a miss and determining an alternate method of an offensive requires a troubleshooting thought process that, to some, is very exciting. Some developers will challenge gamers further by using the ATB (active time battle) system which gives the player a time limit between attacks. Forcing the gamer to perform these thought processes much quicker, essentially they have to think fast.

Real-time vs Turn-based is like chocolate or vanilla. Its a preference. Personally, I enjoy both but much more often go with vanilla as I do with turn-based RPGs.

Last edited by Nynja on 2/18/2010 10:38:58 AM

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Nynja
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:42:37 AM

To amend the above post; Having only one flavor of ice cream would make it a very bland dessert. This is the problem with RPGs today (at least AAA titles) which is the point of the article. We do need a better variety of RPGs for everyone to enjoy.

Good article, Ben.
********

Mmmk, taking off the 'mature' hat now.

Last edited by Nynja on 2/18/2010 10:47:27 AM

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Roach721
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:59:43 PM

Thank you, Ninja for actually behaving like the Administrator should have.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:26:16 PM

@Nynja

When someone states their opinion as if it's fact in regards to something they clearly know little about than they've opened themselves up for extreme criticism.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:41:40 PM

Roach, don't tell me how to do my job.

If someone clearly doesn't know what they're talking about, I'm going to mention it.

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eLLeJuss
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:22:33 AM
Reply

I dunno. IMO WKC just failed to deliver =/

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:32:49 AM

How many hours are you into it? I've logged over 50hrs thus far and while I'll admit it's not what I was hoping for 2 years ago it's more than enough to quench my JRPG thirst. The SP is so so but the online questing with friends is addictive IMO.

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Kevadu
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 2:19:42 AM
Reply

Resonance of Fate is dramatically different. So much so that I wouldn't even consider it realtime. Have you played the demo on the Japanese PSN? It follows the enemy-moves-as-you-move style of games like Valkyrie Profile 2, but you can just stand there and think and you won't be penalized for it.

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Nynja
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:34:06 AM

I'm really excited about this game because it has that turn-base core. I cannot wait for that game. It looks amazing and the gameplay felt fresh.

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Oyashiro
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:43:41 AM

I'm looking forward to it as will. I heard the release date is one week after FFXIII. This basically cements the fact that I'll definitely be passing on FFXII for RoF.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:53:54 AM

What about Last Rebellion? Show it some love too!

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:50:23 AM

Last Rebellion blows, dude.

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Roach721
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 5:44:12 AM
Reply

I liked when fallout 1 and 2 were turn based much better than the one Bethesda made. In my opinion they need to go back to the way it was.

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THEGODSLAYER
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:14:43 AM
Reply

its not the mechanics i get bored with, its the game structure and story that gets boring, btw im new here. iv been followoing this website for years but havent had my own computer til now

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:42:17 AM

Welcome to the site. I'm a little confused with your post. If you don't have a problem with the mechanics than you must be a fan of Turn Based? I suggest you try SuikodenIII it has IMO the best storyline in the series and an interesting way of telling it.

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JackC8
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:23:56 AM
Reply

I think it's more a symptom of the "this game was very successful, we should copy it" syndrome that's so prevalent these days. Developers look at FFXII and think they should stick close to that formula.

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Oyashiro
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:29:33 AM
Reply

Turn-base are still my favorite type of RPG battle systems. They never felt boring to me and to this day would take a Turn-based RPG over a real-time one. Not saying Real-time is bad, I enjoy both and even hybrids. As many people have compared above, its like chess. You plan strategies and think 5 moves ahead. And the complaint that Turn-based battle systems are slow are never valid. The battles move as fast as you want them too. It really down to the players speed of thinking through and comprehending situations as they occur.

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Nynja
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 7:31:11 AM
Reply

You are not alone, Ben.

I've noticed that turn-based RPGs still thrive today, but have evolved into strategy turn-based. Which isn't bad, but the last few I've played all share a similar trait - poor graphics and/or mediocre story.

I would love to see a AAA turn-based RPG from SE for my PS3. I don't care if it's turn-based or strategy turn-based. As long as it's not real-time.

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Imagi
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 9:09:50 AM
Reply

Just to aid balance to the fps haters on this site, can I just say, not another rpg.

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NoSmokingBandit
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:19:02 AM
Reply

The problem with a lot of real-time RPGs is that they tend to fall into the trap of making the game as pointlessly huge as possible. Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout 3... All are real-time but instead of using it to make the game better they just make the game bigger and lose focus of any kind of story.

There are games like Fable and Kingdom Hearts that pull off real-time RPG very well because they focus more on the ROLE PLAYING part of the game, not massive environments for no good reason.

Turn-based and Real-time still have their places in the world. Hopefully more games can combine the two like Valkyria Chronicles and help bridge the gap so it doesnt feel like two sub-genres at war with each other.

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stemon
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:42:06 AM
Reply

I am just thankful Turn based RPGS are still rampant on portables I dont mind the real time stuff but as the articles says I dont want turn based rpgs to be phased out.

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MaximusArcher
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 11:57:34 AM
Reply

Yes

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BigBoss4ever
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 1:56:21 PM
Reply

Ben, whenever you mentioned turn based or Lost Odyssey this gen in particular, it always resonates with me immensely. Lost Odyssey is the best JRPG this gen on 360 ( I doubt FF13 will surpass the addictiveness and the depth of dreams in Lost Odyssey).

In the world of lacking turn based rpgs, especially when they have faded away for a while, turn based games will give new feelings to the gamer. Just like for any old fashioned things (food, movie, clothing etc), if they disappear for a long time, people will start wanting them again and when they come back, they give the new enjoyment as if they are again brand new. This will apply for the turn based game, if they come back to gaming, we will feel it is like no other in this gen, especially in this turn base-less gaming world.

Last edited by BigBoss4ever on 2/18/2010 2:02:25 PM

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Sonattine
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 4:35:02 PM
Reply

There is one aspect of turn based / real time that hasn't been mentioned I believe: gameplay time. I mean by this the fact that a real time game imposes its rhythm on the player, whereas in a turn based game, the player has control over the game's speed.
In Real Life, we are often slaves to time. Events are forced upon us. When I play, I like to have control over the time I have to act and react. Not being under the pressure of time is what I call relaxing. Having a game force its rhythm on me can be fun but also stressful and I don't always crave that kind of adrenaline.
Fallout 1 and 2 where akin to chess, and I loved that. FFX's system gave me the time to organise my actions. Brilliant. FFXII put me in the seat of a manager. I liked being proud of my gambit set up when my characters reacted to a new foe with appropriate spells (I loved the spells) and attacks. Fallout 3 gave the illusion of turn base, but what it really did was give me time, time to think, time to choose, time to relax.
I agree with Ben, we need more turn based games. It's just a different style of gaming, and it happens to be my idea of fun.

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just2skillf00l
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 6:00:55 PM
Reply

Yeah, I saw some Last Rebellion stuff the other day that completely sucked away at my hope for a decent turn-based RPG for the PS3. I was riding on this game as my last hope but it turns out the damn horse was a mutated zebra spray-painted brown.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:26:48 PM

I'm getting it and I'll let you know how fun it is in a week.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 8:40:24 PM
Reply

Glad to see so many people have played and enjoyed Lost Odyssey.

Maybe an underground following will be enough to make 'em do a sequel!

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Alienange
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:20:09 PM

In my dreams.

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LimitedVertigo
Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 10:41:12 PM

Debbie Gibson

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piratedrunk
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 2:01:23 AM

I would love to see a new Lost Odyssey game. I am pretty sure that is the only game to have made me shed a few tears.

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Vitron
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 2:13:10 AM

I'm ashamed to say I wasn't able to play it... Am I missing half of my life here?

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just2skillf00l
Saturday, February 20, 2010 @ 11:06:56 AM
Reply

Thanks LV...I'll be waiting for your review.

Man, I want Lost Odyssey so bad. My brother has the game and it resembles a true turn-based RPG. Another RPG I want is Fable 2. Awesome game with a lot of character customizations, I mean you're pretty much leading another life with this game. Fable 3 is looking promising as well...

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