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PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 Boasts Hidden Fixes?

As many of you probably already know, firmware update 3.21 for the PlayStation 3 removes the ability to install other OSs, like Linux.

We doubt many of our readers care much about this but there may be a few hidden features that are worth mentioning. First of all, we should remind you that update 3.21 is mandatory, which means you're going to have to download it if you wish to gain access to the PSN. Secondly, if you already have Linux on your console...well, we have no idea what happens. Thirdly, according to TheSixthAxis, a couple little features may make this update all the more worthwhile. Citing a Japanese PlayStation site, there's the possibility that we'll now get better playback for PS1 classics downloaded from the Store; i.e., better overall functionality. This is actually quite likely and we wouldn't be surprised if it applied to physical PlayStation media as well. PS1 games have never played perfectly on the PS3 (we've often experienced sound and music drop-outs, for instance), so it'd be an appreciated boost. Furthermore, it seems the security of MP4 video playback has been increased, which would remove some of the vulnerabilities.

No, we don't see anything about cross-game chat or PS2 b/c so it's hardly earth-shattering news. But it's always good to have all the information concerning mandatory updates, right?

4/1/2010 10:26:36 AM Ben Dutka

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Comments (208 posts)

shaydey77
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:46:35 AM
Reply

Why are they removing the other OS option? Kinda seems like a step back rather than a step forward.

Ok guys...we could make cross game chat a reality or we could take away the other OS option...just so show were doing something.

You don't feed a dog then take away the food.

Last edited by shaydey77 on 4/1/2010 10:46:45 AM

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B-RadGfromOV
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:48:52 AM

The PS3 has supposedly been cracked by the guy who did the JailBreak for iPhone. Other OS would make it a lot easier to run mods and back-ups. Sony's trying to nip it in the bud.

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Titch1794
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:51:45 AM

True say shaydey,
I for one am not totally fussed about the whole other OS but I definately want cross game voice chat and b/c.
Is it that hard to do or am I just being naive?

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LividFiction
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:04:39 AM

"Other OS would make it a lot easier to run mods and back-ups. Sony's trying to nip it in the bud."

And give cause for someone to bring a class-action lawsuit against them in the process. Removing advertised features from a released product is generally frowned upon and definitely illegal.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:40:55 AM

True, about the legality of them removing it, but like Ben said the majority of the people aren't running linux on their systems. and it is a security risk seeing as Geohot hacked it and is still pursuing ways to keep the os and still manage to use the PSN ( sony gives the option of either keeping the OS or losing the PSN). my question is why hasn't that guy been arrested yet

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:42:45 AM

http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/ <--- the hacker's blog.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:04:02 PM

They're making it a requirement that PS3s do not have OtherOS enabled in order to access PSN. Firmware 3.21 disabled OtherOS to allow PS3 fat systems to meet the PSN access requirement of no OtherOS.

The reason for this is that a pea-brain with a huge ego thought he could do not wrong and announced that he'd hacked the PS3s hypervisor. The hack has limited impact, but is an opening in the security of the PS3. If that opening was widened it could eventually lead to compromised PS3s on the PSN. As any IT security person worth their pay-check will tell you, that is a beach-head for breaking PSN. So, Sony decided to protect PSN because PSN contains financial transactions and financial information along with the personal information of PSN customers. It's a precaution, and a wise one. Can you imagine the financial liability Sony would face if they did not plug this potential hole and further down the line someone used it to exploit PSN and steal CC numbers? If you want to talk about a class action suit, that would be one.

@LividFiction,

There is no scope for a class action lawsuit because this is not a mandatory install, the user has a choice and has to choose to install the firmware. The installation process clearly indicates the consequences of installing it, and what precautions to take if you decide to install.

As I said in another comment, this update is about satisfying the requirements of connecting to PSN. PSN is a secure network service. There are strict requirements for devices that can connect to it, if your device doesn't meet that requirement you cannot connect. Because of the potential security breach that the OtherOS hack represents, PS3s with OtherOS capability are no longer welcome on PSN. The firmware fixes this, it's optional. If you do not install it your Linux keeps working as does the BluRay functionality, and the solo gameplay, but PSN is unavailable to you. Your PSN account remains, untouched, nothing is removed. You lose nothing, and can access it from any PSN capable PS3.

There is no scope there for a lawsuit, Sony is acting responsibly in regards to protecting the PSN and it's users from a possible security threat. Sony is not forcing this update without user consent, nor are they sneaking it on by not telling us what it does. The consumer makes an informed decision.

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dirtyepic
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:18:17 PM

It's not difficult to make it mandatory that PSN be accessed only from the GameOS side.

Sony has been phasing out its presence in linux development ever since IBM decided to discontinue the Cell processor. They've laid off several employees responsible for working with the linux kernel and toolchain community over the last several months. I know some of these people. I don't blame them, the support is there now and it makes business sense not to dump tons of money into a dead architecture. They've been looking for an excuse to get rid of linux support for a while now and here they have it.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:06:00 PM

@dirtyepic

The problem isn't Linux or OtherOS mode being used to access PSN, the problem is that a hack in OtherOS mode gives a point of entry for attempts to hack GameOS. If GameOS is successfully hacked then the PSN is next. Since OtherOS is the vector (way in) for the current hack, and likely is the vector for future hacks, preventing PS3s with OtherOS capability from interacting with PSN is a sensible precaution to take.

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Underdog15
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:48:38 PM

Aaaaand right on cue, Highlander comes in to save the day with an incredible amount of info most of us would have never realized. It makes perfect sense, I think.

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GamingBuddha
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:53:24 PM

Highlander, I see your point, but why would they include Other OS in the first place then? Even before Geohot released his hack, I would have presumed Other OS would have been the easiest way to hack/pirate the PS3. With an OS like Linux, you could burn PS3 game discs with a simple application using the built in Blu-ray drive. It would also lead to people trying to make modifications to the PS3 firmware directly through it.

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FullmetalX10
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:23:04 PM

Thanks Highlander ;)

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The Stig
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:35:36 PM

@ shaydey77, Sony are under no obligation to update the firmware with new features. I get really annoyed when everytime a new firmware is announced the forums get filled up with threads about people cryin "its been x months since last update and all we get is this".

@ GamingBuddha, The PS3 BD drive is read only. Or do you mean copy the image FROM the disc?

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bridgera
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 9:47:04 PM

"There is no scope there for a lawsuit"

It is against fair trade laws to advertise a feature, then remove it after purchase.

That the install "isn't manditory" is irrelevant. If I install that update, don't have access to Linux, but it says "Other OS" on the back of my box, or I pull up adds from 2006-2009 where Sony promoted that feature, that's all the evidence I need to claim that I was baited into a sale and the product was switched.

People are filing left and right with various offices about this matter.

Personally, I won't do more than fill out a piece of paper to join a Class in a Class Action Lawsuit.

I don't see Sony winning this one, bait and switch sales are illegal. period.

Last edited by bridgera on 4/1/2010 9:51:09 PM

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Irievibes
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:04:30 PM

how big is a blueray game usually? 15+ gigs on disc plus w/e the on hard drive install is?

so even on a 120gb hd , you could have...maybe 3 games tops on your system copied? sounds really unpractical not to mention the constant updating of the firmware, i dont get why anyone would even want to get copied games for the ps3
if you got 300 for a ps3, u can spare 40-60 buks for a game every now and then

i pay car, loans, cell and other stuff and i still could buy more games than i have time to play them with a 350 buk/week salary , so i dont see why all the fuzz about trying to hack the ps3 ..

geohotz should be put in a public cell and everyone gets to go and feed him cookies and pat im on the head for being such a moron, yeah you hacked the hypervisor, then announced it to the world and all u got was a big fat waste of time...what a moron..

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:12:41 PM

@gamingbuddha

You can't copy BluRay discs, there is copy protection on them, and game discs have an additional level of protection against being copied. Like most consoles the system won't play 'backup' discs, and unless someone manages to fully crack it open and build a custom firmware, it never will.

Personally I hope that no one ever cracks the system because it protects game developers publishers console makers and consumers. Every game pirated is dollars lost which means that the costs of development have to be shared by fewer sales raising prices. Everyone suffers.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:16:33 PM

Bridgera

We get that your feelings are all hurt, but you are wrong, there is no scope because Sony is not removing any feature. Who installed the update? You do. Do you have the opportunity to refuse the update? Yes. If you refuse to install the update does your PS3 stop working? No. Your 'damage' is limited to not being able to log into PSN. Is your PSN account safe? Yes.

Where are your grounds for suit? You accuse Sony of bait and switch, there has been no such bait and switch. The software features of the PS3 are subject to change, it's in your user license. Sony (as all software companies do) reserve the right to modify their firmware, you are simply a licensed user of it. If you choose not to use the most recent update you are responsible for that choice, and if Sony modifies their software, the license agreement covers them. How much do you think Sony's attorneys billed Sony to make sure that what they were doing would stand the test of law?

Last edited by Highlander on 4/1/2010 10:19:04 PM

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bridgera
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:39:47 PM

Highlander let's discuss only what's relevant.

My feelings, irrelevant.

Sony's reasons for breaking state/federal trade laws, irrelevant.

I bring in a PS3 that Sony lead me to believe had any specific feature upon purchase, it had better be there at any later time. The *ONLY* exception is that they are allowed to drop support of services like PSN.

I update my PS3, I prove that Sony promoted the Install Other Os feature, and I that I no longer have that feature, case done.

We're not talking about free services like PSN, we're talking about features of the product I (not Sony) own.

A EULA, will NOT allow them to break state/federal laws. It doesn't matter what I agree to in any update. So what I agree to in an update, also irrelevant IF it breaks state/federal law.

If Sony wants to sell their products in the US, they must comply with all Federal, State, and Local laws.

My counterpoint to you saying that I am wrong, is that it is not I, but you who are wrong.

Last edited by bridgera on 4/1/2010 10:44:30 PM

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PhilipJWitow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:19:43 PM

From what I've read about the issue, when you install OtherOS, you also read and agreed to Sony taking it away from you if they so chose to in future updates.

They've covered their asses from a TONNE of directions, so a lawsuit really isn't going to get anywhere.

Yes, it sucks for those people using Linux to lose it, but it's far better for a few people to lose out than millions if the PS3 was hacked and piracy became an issue. I'm sorry it had to be you who was affected.

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GamingBuddha
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:58:54 PM

@ Stig
Yes, sorry I did mean copy them.

@ Highlander
I know that Blu-discs and PS3 games have copy protection, but when has that ever stopped pirates? My question was why they would have Other OS in the first place if it would be the biggest threat to piracy and hacking? I agree that it will be a sad day when the PS3 finally gets hacked and pirated; I just hope it doesn't happen anytime soon and doesn't destroy the market like it did for the PSP.

Last edited by GamingBuddha on 4/2/2010 12:01:25 AM

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nilos95
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 4:45:24 AM

Sony can be sued because if you disagree with the removal of otherOS, they take out the advertised free to access PSN. This is what makes the update illegal, not the removal itself(sinc you agree). I don't know about US, but in EU it is illegal in 2 laws(for failing to be as advertised(PSN) and for removing a feuture without the user's consent(PSN)).

And of course, piracy in PS3 is not viable. The pirates would have to wait several days for the game to download. Then, they would need a very expensive Blu-ray writer(unless they have a huge HDD) and an as of yet expensive empty Blu-ray Disk. Transfering it to an external Hard Drive or writing it in a Blu-ray would take even more time. Then, there are two endings in this story. They would either find out that the file was broken and mourn their money and time spent or find out that it would be at the same price, if not cheaper, to buy the real thing(used or new) with the manual and online multi-player support.

And by the way, honest users are harmed by this. Hackers can use the proxy server to enter PSN while they are waiting for custom firmware 3.21!



Last edited by nilos95 on 4/2/2010 4:59:33 AM

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:07:28 AM

@Nilos,

PSN is still free regardless, a user can go to any PS3 and log in using their PSN credentials whether or not they install 3.21 on their personal PS3.

Wait and see how long it takes Sony to black known proxies and update the perimeter defenses of PSN to detect and ignore proxies.

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fluffer nutter
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 11:07:54 AM

To the person up there with the wrong information, blu-ray disc movies can be copied and can be played on a PS3, albeit, illegally. I just wanted to let it be known as I'm trying to fight the battle against spreading misinformation. As you were.

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nilos95
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:01:15 PM

@fluter:
i didn't say that Blu-ray movies cannot be played, isaid that it is expensive to write them in Blu-ray discs and other than that, i said that games like GoW3(40gb) are not easy to download. It is just expensive, not impossible.

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fluffer nutter
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 1:18:49 AM

@nilos95, my comment wasn't directed at you. Read my comment again and you'll see that I was replying to the person that said you "can't copy BluRay discs".

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nilos95
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 9:35:11 AM

@fluffer
sorry, i was tired so i couldn't think

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fluffer nutter
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 3:22:10 PM

No worries. :)

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gangan19
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 6:50:30 PM

you can take away the food it didnt eat

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Highlander
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 9:56:27 PM

That poster has a name Fluffer.

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DeathOfChaos
Monday, April 05, 2010 @ 9:43:54 AM

TheHighlander;
Very informative and understandable. After knowing that, I'm glad it was taken out. But if I were to get my 60GB PS3 up and kicking again, I wouldn't install that update. And if I were to use any type of mod with the Playstation 3, I wouldn't be using it to steal from other users or the PSN. I'd simply use it without any connection to the internet. Why would I need to overcome someone else's account or even hack the PSN? I don't ever buy things from the PSN too often anyway.

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:55:50 AM
Reply

I can't access my Vaio media server anymore. Lame.

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:19:50 AM

eh, eh ,e h, wait a minute. False Alarm. It wasn't working last night immediately after the update but its working now. The stuff can't be copy written.

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www
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:03:50 PM

Blame George Hotz.

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shadowscorpio
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:09:18 PM

Sony still needs to improved/fix the server so it more user friendly. I can't stand going on this site because the info on the screen overlaps each other rendering some things unreadable

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:13:24 PM

@WWW

Indeed, that overgrown ego-maniac child is the party to blame. OtherOS already gave everyone free and easy access to Linux. OtherOS could be used for lots of things, people complained that they didn't have full GPU access in OtherOS and that is often cited as the reason for the hack. Well, it was inevitable that Sony would protect PSN and the PS3 if a hack occurred. My question to those desperate to hack the system is, was it worth it? All this just so you could publish a blog entry claiming you hacked the system and get your face in the press and on TV? Was all that worth the price paid?

Folks need to stop blaming Sony and place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the person(s) responsible for the attempted hack of the PS3s security.

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:37:34 PM

I don;t blame Sony. Their hand was forced by this loser.

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BikerSaint
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:20:55 PM

Here's a great article written so that even a dumb non-techie laymen like myself could even understand why Sony's decided to pull the "other OS" due to the potential of that semi-hack.

It's a damned interesting read too....

Hacked PS3?????
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3hacked-article

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:02:20 PM

That's a good article. It's one of the few that actually looks at the impacts beyond some hacker ego-stroking.

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tes37
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 7:47:56 PM

@ BikerSaint

Evidently he hasn't broken any laws. So they need to make it a crime under piracy laws and prosecute him. Even if he doesn't want to pirate games himself, he clearly wants to make it possible for other people to do so.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:04:34 PM

Maybe not with the PS3 but with the iPhone and that other company he did. I wanna say there is something illegal about him pursuing his hack in retaliation to Sony releasing the update. Which he brags about.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:14:04 PM

@tes

If he makes good on his threat to create a custom firmware he will break the law on circumvention of digital protection. If he manages to get the hardware root keys he will have similarly broken the laws. Damages would be monstrous.

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Silent_J
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:57:12 AM
Reply

Is there a figure of how much people actual has Linux installed on their PS3? A boost in performance is always good.

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ValdiPS3
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:05:40 AM
Reply

i don't care about linux,if i want to use it i buy a laptop.

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Milonakis
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:10:34 AM
Reply

I don't care about linux on a ps3. I do however want cross game chat.

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geovanwitdakick
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:12:14 AM
Reply

I just want cross-game chat. Just to take away the advantage that the 360 has by having it, & us not having it. Also because it can pretty much be used as a phone, for just $60-$80 a year. A phone, that you can communicate with 8 of your friends with at the same time (using the 360 as an example), for a measly $5-$8 a month. If anybody can show me their monthly phone bill being $5-$8 I'll give them a cookie...

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CH1N00K
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:35:32 AM

Your comment about phone bills got me thinking about something. Why don't they put Skype on the PS3? With the Move coming out in the fall, more and more people will have the PSeye. A lot of people already have mics..so why not add this feature to the PS3. They already do it with the PSP why not the PS3?

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:44:09 AM

HOME RUN!!! CH1NOOK

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dirtyepic
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:30:43 PM

you could run VOIP on linux before this update :)

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frylock25
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:18:37 AM
Reply

i guess since i have never used this feature on my ps3 i dont care all that much. i realy dont like that they are takin something away that i already had. i had thought this to be an april fools joke. you know ha ha funny psblog. haha funny sony. sadly it was not.

i understand they dont want the ps3 hacked.

its kind of cool how the ps3 can be shaped and changed. just how about sony sticks to putting things on the system and not taking them off. ill give you one sony. you take something i need and we will have a problem.

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mexgeo86
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:22:11 AM
Reply

I never cared for the other OS feature. I can live without cross game chat; backwards compatibility would be nice but I haven't touched my ps2 games in years. I'd like an improved web browser and netflix integration without the disc.

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Nick Maim
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:34:26 AM
Reply

I installed linux back in the day on my then brand new 60gb ps3. It took forever and it was slow to the point of being unusable (ps3 has very little ram).

I feel bad for the researchers who use it to crunch numbers, but other than that, good riddance.

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Simcoe
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:47:55 PM

PS3's being used in linux clusters for actual scientific research have likely never even had a game played on them, so they don't have to worry about this update.

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bridgera
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:09:00 PM

I had YLD 6.2 installed and did not at all have the experience that you described.

Maybe YLD became more PS3 friendly by 2009.

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Sandtech
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:34:48 AM
Reply

Sony is taking a way a feature that we paid for. I have not used the OS install but this is a dangerous road for Sony or any company to go down.

Note to Sony: You are heading for a slippery slop with this move. I know you have your reasons but do not take a way some thing that I paid for long ago, because you decided I no longer needed it. Are you going to refund me the portion of money that the feature cost? No, I did not think so.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:52:40 AM

No they are not taking anything away. You can choose not to install this firmware update, and lose nothing. The effect of not installing is that you will be unable to access the PSN from that PS3, but from any other PSN connected PS3 you can access PSN using your account which remains untouched. Sony is removing nothing from you.

You, the user, have to decide whether to install the update or not. It is portrayed as mandatory, but is it not. The PS3 continues to function as normal with firmware 3.2 and earlier versions. However the requirements to access PSN are such that you must run 3.21 to access PSN. It's your decision whether or not to update a specific PS3. But that takes nothing from your PSN account either way.

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:36:23 AM
Reply

Good!

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:49:47 AM
Reply

Now hong on a minute, the update is not mandatory. It's entirely optional for the PS3 itself. They (SONY) make a big deal of making the user choose to install the update during the update process. So it's not entirely fair to call it mandatory.

It is mandatory if you require PSN access. I know I will be told I'm splitting hairs, but if we are honest, this update is mandatory for the use of PSN only. It is not mandatory for the use of the SP3 as a BluRay player, a stand alone console or Internet browser, or running Linux. This update is only mandatory if you want to access the PSN. People are not understanding this issue correctly if they say that this update is mandatory and removes features. You choose to update, the update process makes you clearly aware of the consequences.

What has happened here is that the requirements for connecting to PSN have changed and the firmware update for the PS3 fat makes the PS3 fat meet the new PSN access requirements. Because this is an access issue for PSN, there is no way that you can sue Sony for removing features you paid for. If for example you decide not to install this update, your PSN account is not deleted or removed it simply sits dormant waiting for you to log in. You lose nothing. OK, you'd have to buy a second PS3 to access the PSN if your existing fat system was always going to use Linux, but that is your choice. If you do install the update, Sony makes it crystal clear that you must backup your personal data from your Linux partition because it will be deleted by the update if you proceed.

I understand the point of view that sees this as removing a feature because from the point of view of someone who wants to do both on one unit, there is a choice that results in losing access to one thing or the other. But like I said, even if you choose not to install, you can't sue Sony because your PSN account remains there, waiting for you with all your transactions intact. As soon as you get a PS3 that can access PSN, you have access again, nothing is removed from you.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:54:32 AM

Thanks for braking that down. not that i used linux anyway.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:12:39 PM

*breaking

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coverton341
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:18:00 PM

No this is not mandatory but firmware updates are not branching. Also, it is mandatory if you wish to play games that require 3.21 or better.

Sony is trying to prevent something. The breaking into of the GameOS through a security hole found via the OtherOS option. There are better ways to do this than essentially removing a feature from their product because in essence it really is a removal no matter how the hairs get split. Not everyone that uses the OtherOS option is going to have the money nor the trust in the company to buy another system to have both options when we were given both options from the onset.

I am a Linux user in general so I am used to being in the minority for the most part when it comes the computer world so I am sure I am part of the minority in the utilisation of the OtherOS option as well, but I am still upset at this action. I paid for a product with certain features and now they are essentially asking me which feature to give up. I can either keep the ability to play games online and games that come out in the future, or I can keep the ability to use the OtherOS option. There is a third and fourth option and one is good for Sony and bad for my wallet and one is very bad for Sony and good for a fulfilment of revenge and therein lies a larger problem.

There are more people like Geohot, the hacker who found the security hole in the first place, out there with the knowledge and ability to circumvent these firmware updates. Giving these people a reason to direct their resources and attention at breaking into the PS3 out of pure spite is a bad thing no matter how you look at it, and if anyone thinks that is not going to happen because of this then you don't understand the type of people I am talking about. These are the type of people that thrive on breaking the ice and hacking the challenging systems because they are there.

I for one am pretty upset by this direction and have not wholly made my mind up about the way I feel about it.

This is just my opinion of course. I am sure most people will never even notice the option has been taken away.

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coverton341
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:28:36 PM

Actually I must make a correction.

There is already a way to update the firmware and keep the OtherOS option. Let the cat and mouse game begin everyone. This has the potential to become completely crazy.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:50:16 PM

Geohot didn't find a security hole. He dismantled a PS3 fat, drilled holes in the motherboard and spend weeks trying to glitch the memory and data buses before eventually finding a way to get the Linux hypervisor to act on his behalf. I wouldn't recommend dismantling your PS3 and drilling holes in the motherboard, or any of the other things he did. It wasn't so much finding a security hole as it was drilling randomly in the wall of a bank and hitting one of the telephone wires for the security system.

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Alienange
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:42:45 PM

I beg to differ. If I can't play any of my online games until I install fw 3.21, then you better believe it's mandatory. You can get technical if you want, but this update is as mandatory as it comes.

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coverton341
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:03:55 PM

You are absolutely correct, he did physically manipulate the board which makes the complete removal of the OtherOS option even worse. There are certainly other lengths a hacker can go to to put the PSN into jeopardy and taking such a drastic measure to curb piracy and security risks is only a step in a cat and mouse hacker war.

I can honestly say the more I think about it the less I like the direction they have gone with this update and the more I an honestly fearful of what will happen in the future to prevent more hacking.

Simply put, you can't stop it. Such is the way of technology. If someone knows how to wiggle the bits they will eventually get what they want.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:30:33 PM

@Coverton,

PS3 is 3½ years old and as yet there is no successful hack of the GameOS, and the root keys for the security of the system are not compromised. No one can produce a custom firmware and no one can pirate PS3 games.

That is a hell of an achievement, and yes, you are right that folks will continue to try and may eventually succeed. But, you have to admit that Sony and IBM have made it extremely challenging with the PS3.

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coverton341
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:35:05 PM

They did a damn fine job. I will fully admit that and my hat is off to them, but the pulling of the OtherOS option is like throwing gas on the fire in my opinion. There is already a way to circumvent the FW. It has to do with having a spoofed database proxy up on a networked PC. How are they going to fix that one, making a firmware update that makes it impossible to have a PS3 on a home network?

I know that thought is a bit of reaching out but it is worrisome in my opinion the way they have decided to handle things.

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WolfCrimson
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:38:38 PM

@coverton: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:02:46 PM

@coverton,

Did ps1 need "Other OS?" No

Did ps2 need "Other OS?" No

Does ps3 need "Other OS?" NO

It's a video game console
Get your Linux fix on your computer/laptop

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:29:53 PM

@Coverton

You're talking about something that is not a hack of the PS3, it's a network based attack, and can't be addressed through firmware.

Spoofing attacks can be difficult to detect, and can someone running through a proxy to capture all network traffic so it can be analyzed. I don't know the specifics of the circumvention you're describing. I'm sure that Sony will try to block it and others will try to unblock it - as ever.

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:03:08 PM

Highlander, did you update all your PS3's?

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SmokeyPSD
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:21:03 PM

Highlander, I enjoy your posts, but for once I really dislike how headstrong you are arguing and defending against everyone feeling betrayed by this and questioning the legality behind it which IS shaky.

I DO lose something for updating, my Other OS support, if I don't, I LOSE access to psn, and ability to use lots of my products. To say I don't lose that, I can still just buy another ps3 and go on that 1 is proposterous! I dont NEED another 1, the 1 was fine for my needs. To say otherwise and try and say it's entirely optional and changes nothing is semantics, and quite frankly offensive.

Yes, in a sense you a right, it is "optional". However, game discs will be coming with the firmware, no psn access, effectively crippling my future of using the ps3, either way.

I am a student, I live with my partner, as such we are not made of money. We have a laptop and the ps3 with linux between us. with our 2 workloads we needed to use both at the sametime for uni. I bought my ps3 for the enjoyment of games yes BUT that doesn't take away from the reason of using linux, which has been DAMN useful.
I don't have the money to buy another computer so we're pretty much screwed thanks to sony, sony has now forced my hand to sit it out and see what happens.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:22:42 PM

Both 60 Gigers and only the 40Giger remains to be done tonight. No problems at all.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:30:40 PM

SmokyPSD

I am sorry if I am coming over that way. Personally I saw this coming in late January when GeoHot decided to go public and claim a hack he really didn't yet have. Sony declined to comment, and I knew that if he demonstrated the hack and showed it could be repeated that Sony would ultimately respond. I even thought that they'd remove the OtherOS, after all it's absent from the slim models.

But you know what, at the time I was madder than hell at GeoHot for doing as he has. I still am. I didn't want the Linux removed, it doesn't make me happy, but it was absolutely inevitable. It doesn't bring me any pleasure to point out the things I am pointing out, but the way I look at it is that this was forced on us, and SONY, bu GeoHot and others in that community.

So it is what it is. Sony has to do somthing, and from a technical standpoint, disabling OtherOS is the most effective and logical step to take. Simply patching the Hypervisor isn't possible because the hack is partially hardware based, and could therefore be repeated. Because of that, removing the Hypervisor is the most reliable way to prevent the hack being widened to impact other parts of the PS3.

Again this is just the way it is, and the fault belongs entirely to GeoHot and the community around him.

Like I said, none of this makes me happy, but you know what, Sony is pretty much the victim here along with the Linux users of the PS3. Obviously with the removal of OtherOS, it's hard for the Linux users to see it that way, but the truth is the truth. Your villain here is the hacker, not the hacked.

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whooka
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:02:02 PM
Reply

I was hoping this was another April Fool's joke. This is definitely removing an advertised feature and one reason I love my 'fat' ps3. They have now rendered the PS3 totally worthless as a media player (it was already 99% worthless) since the PS3 O/S doesn't support files over 2GB, has NO support for lossless audio as well as other audio and video codecs, among other things. Having a Linux boot at least let one use it for that sort of thing which is a huge plus if you have it hooked up to a home theatre system. Not to mention the file system in the native PS3 O/S is a joke. No folders, and playlists take forever to make.

As far as firmware updates not being mandatory, they are indeed mandatory as access to the PSN is pretty much required for game updates (which some updates FIX things developers KNEW were broken when they released the game and Sony approved said release. There's also been firmware updates that FIX other native problems to the PS3 O/S so if you want things fixed and your console to work as advertised for some things you MUST install the firmware updates to access the PSN.

This is sad thing for Sony, imo. They gave up a nice, future-forward option the console had (at least in it's original incarnation) to replace it with support for old PS1 games which, if you want to play you can pick up a PS1 for nothing. The PS1 games are nowhere even close to next-gen or HD and any that are worthwile either show up on the PSN as a download or, in the case of worthy PS2 games like GoW, the developers redo them.

Sad, sad, sad.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:08:28 PM

The update is not mandatory for the PS3 to work. What is mandatory is that any PS3 accessing the PSN cannot have OtherOS capability. The firmware (3.21) brings PS3 fat models into accord with that access policy. The update is mandatory for PSN only, which you have paid zero dollars and zero cents for. Your PSN account is not affected by deciding not to install. Your PSN account remains and can be accessed from any PSN capable PS3. Sony has been very clever about this, and I don't honestly think there is scope for a successful law suit. I am certain some will try, but I am equally sure that they will not succeed.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:11:30 PM

<-_->

really?

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dirtyepic
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:56:48 PM

Oh bullshit. If I want to continue to use my PS3 to play games as I do now I have to update. If I want to play games or watch BD released in the future, I have to update. If I update, I lose my linux partition. As a linux developer, that's half the reason I bought the system in the first place. If I don't update, I lose the other half, the ability to play games and watch media. Keep spinning Sony, either way I lose a hell of a lot of functionality for no good reason.

How is this acceptable? What other product do you buy knowing that some day the manufacturer might come by your house and take half it back?

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:57:36 PM

my comment was aimed at whooka. Highlander is 100% correct.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:26:23 PM

@dirtyepic

If you are a developer then you know that security is not something to be taken lightly. PSN is a treasure trove of personal and credit information. If OtherOS capability presents the possibility of a threat to PSN, what do you suppose should be done? You know as well as I do that hacking a system hypervisor isn't trivial, even on the PS3 with the advanced hardware based security it's still to high level of a hack to ignore. So what do you think they could have done? Patch the hypervisor - and watch it get hacked again? They went through this BS on the PSP and look where that got them. Sony allowed Linux to be run on their game console hoping that would satisfy the desire to create home brew applications. Some moron decided to abuse their trust and now others are hurt by the result. Who should you be mad at do you think?

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BTNwarrior
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:16:00 PM
Reply

Does anyone else think that this might be an attempt to stop people from making cheap super computers? Because I'm pretty sure sony makes all their money off games and not hardware, so maybe this was all put in place to stop all those groups who just buy a ton of ps3's to make one big computer.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:17:24 PM

No, a cheap supercomputer doesn't need access to PSN, so all those cheap PS3 super computer clusters simply won't update. Actually, I suspect that very few of those supercomputer clusters of PS3s are terribly up to date with their firmware anyway.

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Alienange
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:44:48 PM

I wonder how the US army feels about that. They bought a boat load of PS3s to run Linux. No, they don't HAVE to update at this point, but what if something they want/need shows up in a future firmware?

Sorry soldiers, you're stuck with 2009 firmware. Hope the investment was worth it.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:21:05 PM

Linux is a complete OS and does not require PSN access. PS3s running Linux in a cluster don't need any of the gaming capabilities or even the blu-ray playback capabilities that would be updated in future firmware.

In any event, Sony may produce a specific firmware that is targeted specifically at such users if the need arises in the future..

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BTNwarrior
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:02:25 PM

I'm thinking more along the lines of when new ps3's ship they will have the new firmware already installed making it impossible to make a super computer out of it

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The Stig
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:50:10 PM

@ BTNwarrior, I'm sure the companies that use the PS3s will be able to make some sort of deal with Sony to keep an older FW on newly bought models.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:16:16 PM
Reply

BTW did anyone else notice that the actual install of the firmware took longer than 'normal'?

I wonder if Sony dropped in a little additional security layer for the firmware update itself. It just seemed that the update installed a bit more slowly than the ones before it.

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main_event05
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:19:08 PM

maybe, Geohotz is trying to hack that too. I posted a link to the lil' jackass's blog, you can read all about it when Ben okays my post.

Last edited by main_event05 on 4/1/2010 12:19:48 PM

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fluffer nutter
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:31:13 PM

No, I didn't notice the installation taking longer than normal. It went as quick as all of the past ones. I did notice someone up there stating that adding this update will not take away functionality of the system and although that may be correct, technically, it will impede the enjoyment of some, should they choose to buy newer games that require 3.21 to be on the system. That, is not a good thing.

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WolfCrimson
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:44:06 PM

You're right, highlander, it took longer than normal. It usually takes around 15 secs - 30 secs to install the update, this time around I think it took like 2-3 mins? I was busy using my laptop so I might not be accurate.

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FullmetalX10
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:40:50 PM

I thought about that too, I don't think they would just remove the other OS capability, they probably patched some security functions and maybe added some new ones too, I just hope it makes the PS3 even more hack free.

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Irievibes
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:42:07 PM
Reply

but why take this route? why not make a firmware that essentially allowed you to keep your linux partition, but made it be that if you were using said linux partition , you couldnt acces psn
you would have to reboot the thing, and boot with the new firmware to be able to acces it, but going so far as removing the ability to have a linux partition is a total crock ...

i do agree with whooka, at least make beter dam media support for the ps3, because from that point of view, i WILL have to update eventually for the compatibility between media, so it is "required" in some way, because future games may not even run on older firmware thus forcing me to update to play them...

you get what im saying HL?
maybe you can explain it better..

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:46:20 PM

Because they are taking a precaution against future hack attempts. Now that someone has made a crack in the security, others will attempt to widen it. That potential for future problems, makes Linux capability (whether the user is actually running Linux or not) a security liability for PSN.

Last edited by Highlander on 4/1/2010 12:46:41 PM

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Irievibes
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:54:41 PM

k thats what i wasnt clear on, so the security hole, is present wether the ps3 unit is actually running the linux os or the standard xmb, its present just because of the mere presence of linux on your system?

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:18:47 PM

Yes, the security hole that was found is based on the PS3 fat hardware and the hypervisor software that is required for Other OS. A hypervisor is a small program that runs at the highest levels in the CPU and controls what hardware can be seen by the operating system (OS) as well as deciding which mode the system is in, Game or Other. If the Other OS mode (and therefore Linux) capability is removed the hypervisor is no longer needed. So the vulnerability disappears along with the hypervisor.

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Dridion
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:53:08 PM
Reply

Looks like PS3, it DOESN'T do everything!

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BikerSaint
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:16:40 PM

Highlander,
I'm trying to wrap my brain around this scenario here, so please explain to this non-tech noob(me), so I'll understand it a little better.

1. What exactly is that Hypervisor?

2. What is it's function on our older PS3's(my 60 gigger)?

3.And why was it even needed before, if it won't be needed now?

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Karosso
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:22:50 PM

It sure as hell won't do Linux anymore and it does not do B/C either and it does not have a memory card reader or more than 2 USB ports... can't remember what else has been cut so far.

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bearbobby
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:34:58 PM

Mine has all those things. Sucks to be a late adopter I guess...

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Darthvintage
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 7:23:40 PM

@Biker Saint

His hack unlocks the hypervisor. That's all that needs to be done for someone to unlock it to play free games. With the hypervisor owned, 100% control over the CPU is attained. The doors are open, just because hotz doesn't want piracy, doesn't mean it won't happen. Example; PSP was "hacked" once the Proof of Concept firmwares came out. Piracy enabled? No, but they were hacked; so it was just a matter of adding the feature. Same thing will happen with the PS3. And taking the fw update to modify it to keep otherOS keeps his hack working. This is a grudge match between Sony and hotz, to be honest i don't think it's that we can't use linux that bothers him, but if we can't use linux, his lovely hack has been thwarted.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:32:21 PM

@Darthvintage

Not on the PS3. The hypervisor is not the top of the tree. There is hardware security inside the CPU that can't be broken via software. For custom firmware or a game loader to work, it would have to pass the security checks the hardware will make, or face termination.

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Darthvintage
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:22:15 AM

@ Really higliander?

then what exactly does the hack pose a threat to.

having the hypervisor should be sufficient of a threat for piracy

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:11:24 AM

Having the hypervisor means that an intruder has control of everything but the hardware cryptography and security. The fear would be that somehow someone could either reverse engineer the keys (unlikely) or come up with a method to circumvent that protection. Having control of the hypervisor is a necessary step on that path.

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NeoHumpty
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 12:57:17 PM
Reply

Yeah. Seemed like a long download for them just to be removing something. I got the YLoD when I tried to install Ubuntu and have been too scared to try again. I can understand why some are upset, though.

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Xbox_Killer
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:00:36 PM
Reply

@TheHighlander

The update doesn't only remove the ability to sign in to the psn. It also removes the ability to play games and blu-rays that require the 3.21 update installed. So that means they're also taking away the ability to play future game and blu-ray releases.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:10:13 PM

NO, they are not taking anything away, you are when you decide to not install an update required. You don't own any of those future items so none of them are taken away from you, your system has the potential to run those items if configured to do so.

Look this is like Microsoft releasing a service pack for Windows and saying that if you don't install the service pack you cannot access Microsoft network services. You have the option of installing it or not. Future Windows applications such as IE or Office may require that service pack, but installing it may disable something you use daily.

This is a real dilemma faced regularly by PC users, but I don't hear a sense of entitlement boiling over at Microsoft for releasing a service pack full of bug fixes and security updates.

Last edited by Highlander on 4/1/2010 2:14:29 PM

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:11:14 PM

harsh

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maxpontiac
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:01:05 PM
Reply

Glad to see this happening.

The PS3 does NOT need the woes the PSP has.

These hackers need to be put down.

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:07:30 PM

Fiercely!

**** hackers
They can rip apart the 360/PC all the want

ps3 will not allow it!

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RadioHeader
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:01:06 PM
Reply

Is YouTube still working on you guys' PS3s? I know there's lots of people complaining about YT's new layout, but I'm having greater troubles. For instance, when I click on one of my subs videos it takes me back to the main page.

Btw, this happened before the firmware update so sorry for being off topic, but I'm a noob at the end of his tether. For me, the internet basically consists of this place and until a couple of days ago, YouTube.

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Fane1024
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:52:30 PM

It's probably just growing pains in the transition to the new format. I bet it gets fixed sooner or later.

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RadioHeader
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:21:06 PM

Hope so. Thanks Fane.

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The Stig
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:59:09 PM

Having problems too, I cant post comments anymore.

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sonic1899
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:05:55 PM
Reply

I laughed after that Hotz guys said he'd do everything possible to do something about this update when he's the fundemental cause of the PS3 losing linux.

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sonic1899
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:07:56 PM
Reply

...hey, I heard that doing a system restore gives back the GBs that was used for the linux support. If I do that, would ALL my files say they've been imported to the system on the same day?

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Cavan
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:28:41 PM

you are correct my friend, back up everything on your system, then do a system restore as it first formats your harddrive then just put all your data back onto your system.

i put linux on my ps3 once, never used it, as it was rubbish so i did a system restore and that got rid of it.

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Thinker
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:08:53 PM
Reply

While I can understand that Sony disabled this functionality as a result of GeoHot's exploits, surely they could have plugged this loophole in a less drastic manner.

Sure, not many ordinary gamers use this feature, but it WAS an advertised feature of the original PS3, and I feel that removing ADVERTISED functionality to curb POTENTIAL piracy is a slippery slope. What happens, if in the future, somebody finds a way to hijack the streaming feature for their own ends. Will Sony disable streaming too?

I just feel that we, as gamers, don't have to be defensive of everything Sony does. Sure, after a weak first year, Sony has put in a lot of effort to make the PS3 a strong platform, but wrong is wrong and Sony should have at least tried HARDER to come up with a solution that did not involve removing advertised capabilities.

Also, if there were any fixes in v 3.21, Sony would have made it a point of highlighting that so that the update not seem totally negative.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:13:28 PM

How would they plug it? Think like a system security person. Someone has already demonstrated that they can access the Hypervisor which other than the hardware based encryption and cryptography keys in the Cell is the top of the tree in security terms. In most systems once you have the hypervisor, you have the system.

A security professional looks at that and says that the obvious thing is to remove the hypervisor so that a compromised hypervisor can't be used to attack the system further. Without OtherOS there is no need for a hypervisor. No hypervisor to hack on the PS3 makes the job of a hacker that much more difficult.

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Thinker
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:41:11 PM

While I do not profess to know much of the PS3's inner workings, I would say that the assumption that the only way to fix a broken gate is to build a wall there is somewhat hysterical.

For example, if Microsoft or other software vendors were to behave that way with their commercial software, the Windows OS (or other software) would have kept on losing features, rather than gaining them.

Last edited by Thinker on 4/1/2010 2:42:08 PM

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:11:29 PM

Other than "playing," wehter it'd be PSHOME, a blu-ray movie, a DVD movie, or a video game. A v-game console doesn't need to emulate everything a computer does.

It CAN add PC features, but it doesn't need to.

That's why almost everyone who has a v-game console also has a PC

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:05:20 PM

@Thinker,

What makes you think that Microsoft and others don't do as Sony has done here? It happens all the time.

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Thinker
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 7:01:04 PM

@TheHighlander

"What makes you think that Microsoft and others don't do as Sony has done here? It happens all the time. "

They probably have. However, off the top of my mind, I can't think of a single instance where a feature of an OS was REMOVED because of piracy concerns. As far as I remember, they have added extra stuff ON TOP (such as the extremely irritating DRM software which makes your videos and music well-nigh non-portable, and Windows' extremely annoying Activation code, which phones home to MS to make sure your version is legit). However, to the best of my recollection, none of them have scrapped a feature in this manner.

Furthermore, in my humble opinion, the "they do it as well, so it's okay" argument is not really logical.

Last edited by Thinker on 4/1/2010 7:04:45 PM

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:33:40 PM

Thinker,

I was answering your point about other software companies, not justifying Sony's action on the basis of others.

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ChronowerX_GT
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:14:06 PM
Reply

Great just what I need a feature removed. Yeah you can say it's not mandatory but if you wanna go on PSN it is. So either way, if you install it or not, then one feature is being removed.

Heck, the other OS feature is one of the reasons that I'd never get a slim if my fat one broke. Perhaps that's why they're changing it. Not for security reasons, to sell more slim one's when the old ones go faulty.

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sonic1899
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:14:09 PM

If that's the case, then shouldn't Sony have done this directly after the slim launched instead of wating seven months later?

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mrmaniacal
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:20:24 PM
Reply

-- Edited by Admin

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 4/1/2010 2:48:26 PM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:48:43 PM

No, you will not advertise your litigation pursuits here.

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FlyingKickPunch
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:02:30 PM

PWNED!! lol

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Alienange
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 1:46:01 PM
Reply

I think it's stupid. Stupid that Linux was even in there in the first place.

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fluffer nutter
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:49:36 PM

Glad to see that you haven't changed.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:08:13 PM
Reply

Need a fix? Buy a slim, then restore your fatty to factory defaults. You can't hit the PSN, but you can still play in linux and continue any ill-advised hacking attempts to play backups.

I don't need it though.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 4/1/2010 2:10:43 PM

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Simcoe
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:52:39 PM

$299 does make a pretty cheap linux box for the power that the Cell B.E. has!

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:13:52 PM

Best post I've read yet

Did people cry about not having Linux on ps1?
Seriously, the whole PC gamer mentality makes me cringe

Makes me wanna kick some ass (their asses preferably)

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fluffer nutter
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 5:51:43 PM

Scarecrow, you really need to keep the ignorance down. Just because something wasn't implimented in a previous generation doesn't mean it shouldn't be available in a later generation. Look at cars. Should we be bitching about having airbags in them now or should we go with your thinking "They didn't have airbags in the 1950's WTF do we need them now?"

Last edited by fluffer nutter on 4/1/2010 5:52:05 PM

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FlyingKickPunch
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:03:58 PM

airbags kill more people than they save...

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fluffer nutter
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:29:44 PM

Oh, you mean the children that don't fit the height and weight requirements to be in the front seat which means it is illegal for them to be up there? Yeah, that's what I thought.

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:05:20 PM

World i don't think you can roll back firmware updates. I have no idea how we could.

Highlander, do you know of a way?

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WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:07:14 PM

You guys are totally my peeps :)

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Scarecrow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:34:33 PM

@fluffer,
Dude, back off


Your analogy doesn't even make sense

A cars a car

A v-game console is a console

You buy a car to drive it
Adding airbags is actually like adding firmware updates (to protect your console/the network from attacks)

If you build a store, will you leave the door open so everyone can steal your belongings? (this Sony's situation). Hackers being the thieves.

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fluffer nutter
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:13:13 PM

Back off? It's text, dude. Relax. The analogy does make sense if you read it. Go ahead. Try again.

@Jawknee, the answer is yes.

Last edited by fluffer nutter on 4/1/2010 10:14:16 PM

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Scarecrow
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:20:06 AM

Linux and airbags make sense

Very well. If in your world it makes sense, then I guess that's good for you.

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fluffer nutter
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:19:52 AM

I apologize for going to school. LMAO

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Richy
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 2:35:30 PM
Reply

hello ...

i'm actually downloading the update on the PC & will apply using a USB drive, i will apply it for i prefer to go on PSN than to have otherOS, i can use Linux on the puter.

Still i hate the idea of losing a feature & also i've already put 10 Gb aside for the OtherOS & wanted to install YDL, so now how do i recover my space.

will see later on, anyone else updated ? what happened !?

cheers!

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LightShow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:34:05 PM

i'm not skilled in the art of hard drive partitioning or its nuances, but if sony released an update that essentially locked up 10gb of a ton of players hard drives, theyre gonna have a lot of unhappy campers. Maybe they just wipe the other os partition and assimilate it to the general use HD, but im not totally certain thats possible without a format...

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Fane1024
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:01:13 PM

The update warns you to backup your data and reformat your drive beforehand so that you don't lose the 10 GB of space, though why it does so AFTER you've downloaded 3.21 I can't explain.

Anyone who's paying attention shouldn't lose anything but Other OS functionality.

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LightShow
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 3:35:39 PM
Reply

why doesnt sony publicize the good stuff thatll come in the update? youd think theyd want to do what they could to calm people down.

makes me want tot take over for their PR guy...

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tes37
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:17:24 PM
Reply

Oh great, another feature I don't use is being removed. Seriously though, I can see this guy getting his *ss kicked by a Linux fan over this. I personally think it's a good thing this happened. I can't afford other people's habits and need my information to remain secure, so thank you Sony.

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FlyingKickPunch
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:04:51 PM

i lol'ed at "linux fan"

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shaydey77
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 4:40:39 PM
Reply

The more I think about it the more annoyed I am about this. Why is there always a few dopes that ruin things for everyone?? This one should be arrested and every linux fan should be allowed give him one kick in the ass each.

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FullmetalX10
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 6:57:54 PM
Reply

I don't mind the function being removed, it's my gaming system and that is what I use it for, alright, some times watching videos.
Anyways, as long as it is to protect the Playstation of threaths I do not care a bit, not even if they would remove the music function, maybe a bit if they would the video, but I have a PC (maybe you've heard of it, pretty popular among people these days)so I do not care.

PS: So are those lost gigs also for people who have never used other OS before, and if so, is there a way I can get them back after installing the update, not that I need em, just nice to have some extra space available.

PPS: lol @ Highlander for having to recite himself like ten times. We appreciate the trouble though ;)

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DemonNeno
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 7:10:18 PM
Reply

The PS1 compatibility means nothing to me and neither does the OtherOS, but here's the problem. When the PS3 came out, at first, it could actually put down some fierce numbers and gave most, if not all, PCs a run for their money as far as computing power. Well.. That was years ago, that means little now and the only thing that is truly at a loss is for the home user.

There are many home users who utilize Linux to incorperate a WEB BROWSER that's worth a damn. PS3 Browser vs FireFox, IE8, etc = Fail. The browser just isn't good enough to be a full fledged browser. That's what is truly at a loss.

I don't blame Sony for getting rid of OtherOS, but I do blame them for abandoning all that the users who CARE about that feature are now at a loss because of this. If they want to axe it, give people their Sony OS that'll incorperate OpenOffice, Web Browsers and everything else that the PS3 can easily run and make it that "it only does everything" machine if people choose so. I'm sure people will even pay for such a feature.

That's asking too much, though. At the end of the day, omitting more features means just that. If a cracked PS3 happens to be true, let it go mainstream with your watchdogs' ready for action and THEN cut off your OtherOS. Get the hack and patch the PS3, reactivate the feature. That's the responsible way of doing things.

To say "hey, I hope you had fun, but as a Company we didn't think ANYONE would really HACK our system! So now we're cutting your fun (and possibly the very feature that made some of their customers choose an PS3 over an Xbox) so back everything up and get on with life."

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:59:17 PM

Seriously, Sony needs to give us another web browsing option or fix theirs.

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DemonNeno
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 6:40:37 PM

Amen brother.

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Fane1024
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 1:21:27 AM

While I would love to have more features (and especially options) in the browser, I'd be happy if they just fixed the system-crashing bugs. I use Firefox on the rare occasion I use a PC, so I'd use it, but I don't need it.

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Darthvintage
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 7:16:41 PM
Reply

Posted on geohots blog

A lot of you defend geoHotz, fault is defined as responsibility for what has happened. If geoHotz hack never occured, would we still have linux? Obviously the answer is yes, so to say it isn't his fault, albiet indirectly or not, is retarded. Secondly, he IS an attention whore; hackers aren't supposed to do things for publicity, or make statements to news corporations just to look like a big man. Morals aside, Sony has every legal right to do whatever they want with the PS3, it's their console. To those who say "The hack won't end here", yes it probably will. geoHotz may be capable of making CFW, but he would have to counter every future OFW with a CFW, which is a lot of work. Not only that, do you want to risk getting banned from PSN, or bricking your console? In the end, while George's work is impressive, it is his fault that this has happened. Most of you just want some magic ISO Loader anyway, in which George's hack would be the first step in. George's notoriety is inferior to other hackers in the world, other hackers who have never released so much as a public statement to even their users. Why brag about something? The very fact that you did it is enough.

Did Sony remove Linux entirely to protect their investment? Probably not. George was saying "Well check this sh** out Sony, i can do whatever i want with your console now." Of course, Sony is going to say "Oh yeah biotch? Eat this." George taunted them by, if i may quote, saying "I can now do whatever I want with the system. It's like I've got an awesome new power - I'm just not sure how to wield it." to BBC. There's no reason to do this, unless you just want people to think you're hot sh**. Hackers shouldn't make their work too public, after all, most hacks are software based and software can be updated. Just look at what's going on with the PSP-Go! right now, simply naming the game used to use a savegame exploit warrants a near immediate response from Sony. Even though what George said to BBC was morally acceptable, that the hack would lead to being able to play PS2 games on non-B/C PS3's, that's still a problem for Sony. Playstation 2 is still in production, considering the lack of the EE on later units, it would have to be software emulation; which could VERY EASILY lead to piracy. Hacking a system will always warrant a response, and for those of you talking down on Sony because they did this, think about it from their point of view.

If hotz really wanted to hack it just to say "Nothing is unhackable", then self-accomplishment should have been enough. Going to CNN, BBC? Preposterous. That's like hacking the safe terminal at Commerce bank and running to Channel 7 news to say "NOTHING IS UNHACKABLE BITCHES" while you're carrying sacks full of benjamins. It's not the fact that hotz hacked the PS3, it's the fact that he wants news crews to document his accomplishments. Had he not done that, this probably never would have happened.

So for all of you defending hotz, Sony is a corporation. They're going to do what's in the best interest of their products, and if someone provokes them like hotz did, they will respond and provoke him, and his loyal followers, back. It's called a grudge match. What's funny, is geoHotz hack hasn't and probably never would have lead to much of anything. Yet, we lose Linux support over it because some kid couldn't resist the urge to get in the spotlight, over something that probably would have never mattered.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:37:48 PM

Spot on! Absolutely perfect summary.

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___________
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:13:00 AM

right, so you kill the messenger instead of the message writer.
thats common sense!
i dont see M$ removing features from their platform to prevent piracy.
i dont see nintendo removing features from their platform to prevent piracy.

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Darthvintage
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:01:15 PM

@___________

Didn't the wii remove the SD Slot thing to prevent piracy?

And Doesn't M$ BAN People For Modding Their consoles and pirating games?

I Myself is a linux user, and i will admit that what had happen was off settling, but if you think of it from sony's point of view, they are only protecting their products from a potential threat, and i cannot blame them for doing this. had they waited any longer someone would have surely found a way to pirate on the ps3.

And if i remember correctly the update was not mandatory. they do give you the option to keep linux, but face having to lose the abilities of the psn.

Filing a lawsuit is really funny, alot of people say they are going to sue sony for not letting them go on psn because they want to keep linux.

But i can Safely bet my soul to the devil that NO ONE HAS EVER PAYED FOR A SUBSCRIPTION TO SONY FOR PSN.

Ungrateful people

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Jawknee
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 8:20:12 PM
Reply

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I can't update my 60gb for some reason. I keep getting an error code isn't recognizable on Sony's Playstation support Error Code look up on their site.

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 3:24:08 AM

You can use the Recovery menu to force a system update. I can't remember if it will read the update from a USB device, but I think it will so you can download the update to a USB stick and update that way. There's a good summary of the Recovery menu on the US Playstation forum, Google will find it for you.

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whooka
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 9:02:15 PM
Reply

TheHighLander - you are either a developer, work for a development company, or one of your parents do, either way while some of your points are valid they are definitely 'corporate coated'. Look at the history of their firmware updates. Many include updates and fixes to the actual system other then the bluray. And again many games purchased (skate 2 anybody?) are released sub-par knowingly by both developer and sony and are later patched to make them worth the money you spent, you need psn access for them to make that right. psn access is in no way 'free'. i bought a $400 (at the time) sony console to access it and also am using my own internet connection. they are making a ton of money via advertising as are their partners now like netflix off sony ps3 users having the access to this stuff. i can guarantee netflix and the like have seen alot more business via ps3 users so they should provide a way to get there so we can give them our money. and yes, no one complains about microsoft updates because if you don't install most of them your PC and/or network will be hacked or destroyed in a few days by the exploit someone figured out in there crappy code. and keep pushing the 'we need to fear our psn accounts, this is why..'. last i knew i could access my psn account via the internet as well and if you really want security then remove the web browser as visiting ANY site outside of the actual psn could be a potential hazard to the console and sony's precious database of customers they make money off of giving to advertisers. don't get me wrong, i love my ps3 and i've always been a sony fan but you can't say they've not pulled a 'dick move' doing this. it was something that gave ps3 users bragging rights and as linux grows in popularity, as does hypervisor's like vmware (which i work with alot), it was amazing to have the ability to own both a console and a smoking linux system all in one purchase. i do know sony sells crappy laptops loaded with crappy windows software and that microsoft is really pushing their crappy virtualization software in latest windows and windows server. maybe they don't want people to have a competitor's system for free? stop defending them so hard as it's the same corporate ideology that hinders innovation.

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Highlander
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:42:50 PM

I work in software, I have worked in software for years and years, and before that I worked in networking and security. I have a nice colorful career that spans the IT world.

I think long term, and try to look at things from all angles. I see the pain of Linux users, I understand the arguments about removing features. But at the end of the day I have spend more than half of my life working for people I consider to be customers. There are times when I have to take actions that will not be well received by my customers in order to protect those very customers. It's not easy telling someone something they don't like even though it is for their good. Sony is focused on two things, customers and profits. Without customers is has no revenue, and no profits. Anything it does has to protect that. That is their focus, and that is why they took this action. That's where I am coming from.

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Zapix
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:06:12 PM
Reply

Wouldn't waste my HDD space to install an OS I will never have need to use at home, so I admit to no care over the loss of the OtherOS option, however...

Seeing as I never use my PS3 for multiplayer... [PS3 fangirls can now ready their hammers and nails... considering that LIVE tramples the living f***ing s*** out of the PSN in every imaginable way aside from cost... cross game chat, party chat, headsets that don't need tweaking or absorb every sound with 100 yards, etc...] I have absolutely no need to even get on my PS3 and update it. It's a bluray player to me, a pretty decoration to stand next to my second 360 (first one had a DVD drive failure), and an awesome piece of hardware... That just happens to have worthless multiplayer capabilities.

So I will for now, maintain my ability to install an OS I will never install or use, but only because Sony hasn't given me a reason to take interest in playing multiplayer games on the PS3 or put anything of interest to me on the PSN in a long while.

Enough said. Just tossing in my thoughts because I'm bored.

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Qubex
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:11:39 PM
Reply

Highlander, you do make relevant points in all your posts; however it doesn't detract from the very reason why so many people - at least the early adopters that is, and took into consideration the very fact that the PS3 could double up as a "computer" of sorts; as one of the main reasons to go with Sony's machine.

I for one did. I use my Linux extensively and I use my PS3 for gaming extensively; and to boot, I paid top dollar for my hardware only to find it gimped.

I have circumvented the update anyway, so I still have my Linux and I can still play my online games. I will definitely not upgrade if I can help it. If I am totally locked out in the future, then too bad... however I will then go ahead and build myself an "open" PC rig system, and a much more powerful computer/gaming system than the PS3 could hope to be now... With the release of Fermi and the new 6 core Intel chips, I can build myself a monster; and not be crimped by any corporates policies now, and in the future. I am very much hoping peace can prevail between Sony and it's users... but I am saddened that genuine users who bought their PS3's for features that were advertised originally are now using a product that has been no been changed.

Sony's reaction was "knee-jerk"... I feel they could have handled it better, so do thousands of others. There will be people who have just updated not knowing what the update contains, and now find their lives ruined and their data lost. Would it not have been better for Sony to have warned people a month before with a message on the "XMB", make it more apparent at least?

For the first time I am really reconsidering whether or not to buy any more games... I feel there are enough multi-plat games now that are reaching PC to keep me happy on an open system, rather than a closed one. I will keep my PS3 un-patched for now, and use it with the games I have, and as a media player - I will wait for the dust to settle and see how the land lies a month from now...

I have a nice 3 weeks holiday in New Zealand to look forward too, so this weekend will be my last posts for about a month... I look forward to visiting the Plains of Edoras, Rohan country :)

Q!

"make.disbelief"

Last edited by Qubex on 4/1/2010 10:13:36 PM

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Qubex
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 12:52:19 AM

Bad grammar on my part in the first paragraph... should read rather, "...at least the early adopters that is, and taking into consideration the very fact that the PS3 could double up as a 'computer' of sorts; as one of the main reasons to go with Sony's machine."

Q!

"make.perfect"

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InBlackestNight
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 10:21:42 PM
Reply

I am so tired of hearing griping about cross game chat. WHO CARES! I have a ton of psn friends and not a single one said they would ever use it! You know there is such thing as a phone if you want to talk to someone!

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Danny007
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:22:53 PM
Reply

I've been having problems with freezing ever since I downloaded the update. Anybody else having problems?

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:13:34 AM

Only in Home, and that's no surprise, Home freezes all the time for me. I'm pretty certain it's a bandwidth issue on my net connection. Too many devices, too many users, not enough up or downstream bandwidth.

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Toxin
Thursday, April 01, 2010 @ 11:51:10 PM
Reply

Some of what TheHighlander said made some since on the reason but I still fill burned by this and am not sure if i Will keep the system or not. Sony and others will not care if I do not keep gaming on my PlayStation but that is the choice I am making for now. I would have got Demon's Souls and a few other games today but guess not now. Got Fable 2 and a Elite 360 instead.

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BikerSaint
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:43:03 AM

@Danny007,
I didn't have a freezing problem, at least not that I know of yet(knock on wood).

But after I did the update, I had a sudden problem with my controller that wanted to keep shutting down on me for no reason. That's the first time that's ever happened & it had a 3/4 charge still left on it).
For the 5 minutes after the update, I had to keep re-synchronizing it about 8 or 9 times before it finally stopped it's hinkey sh!t.
It's been a couple hours now & I haven't had it happen again since it's first epilepsy attack.

BTW, seems that update took a while, about 8 minutes to DL(kept sticking all along between the 8% & 32% marks, and from there on, then it must have donned a jet-pack, cause it skyrocketed to 100% in only a couple seconds).
FYI, the install did almost the same sticking and in the same areas, but at only 6 minutes, it took about 2 minutes less to do the install.

(Not sure if those sticking times meant anything or not, but just calling it out anyway though).

Last edited by BikerSaint on 4/2/2010 1:51:26 AM

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kraygen
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 12:06:18 AM
Reply

This will not effect me, if I want another os, I can put it on my computer. My ps3 having another os isn't going to do a whole lot for me personally.

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Qubex
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 12:52:59 AM

Problem is, some of us use Linux extensively... what are we supposed to do now???

Q!

"make.disbelieve"

Last edited by Qubex on 4/2/2010 12:53:21 AM

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___________
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:14:52 AM

put it on your PC, though i cant do that with my lappy for some reason it goes loopy with linux.
Asus are fu**ing pathetic! when it comes to supplying drivers, windows 7 has been out for how long and they STILL! dont have drivers out for it.

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Robochic
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:18:08 AM
Reply

One feature I never used, never thought of it and honestly didn't know much about it.

Don't really see the big deal of Sony removing it, just like World said get a slim and restore the fat.

It only takes one idiot to hack into something and ruin it for everyone, so think before blaming Sony it's not their fault they want our consoles protected.

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___________
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:09:52 AM

it is a big deal because if they remove this and no one says anything than whats stopping them from doing more?
this is exactly how M$ get away with so much.
they charge 180AUD for a 120GB HDD but people still buy it.
they bend you over and you sit there and take it, they turn you up side down and shake the money out and you just sit there and take it.
and i dont mean the literal you.
same with their new flash drives.
point being companies will do whatever they get away with, if we allow sony to remove the other OS than whats next?
people need to grow some cahones and stand up for their rights, and stop letting big corporations push them around!
money does NOT! equal power!

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___________
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:06:19 AM
Reply

i honestly can not believe sony are doing this, out of all the companies sony would be the last id expect to do this.
there lining themselves up for a law suit, they should count there pennies lucky that i no longer have a 60GB otherwise id be first in line!
as every day passes sony are getting more and more like M$
thank god i upgraded my PC not so long ago, it looks like its going to be getting allot more use from now on.

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BikerSaint
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:18:45 AM
Reply

@Qubex,
I never tried installing Linux, YDLinux, or that other unbu-something sounding sister of it.

I once looked into doing it, but being as frigging non-tech savvy as I am, I knew I'd screw both it & my PS3 up somehow(just seem to have that bad mojo luck)

Anyways, had I knew what the hell I was doing, I would've wound up installing that latter one(that I can't remember the name of or to pronounce either), so I would have definitely been just as pissed and/or upset as you are now.

Not that it will do you any good, but I just wanted to let ya know I feel your pain, & that I think that all you "other Os" users just got a raw circle-jerk deal.

And as I said before, I'm nowhere even close to being tech-minded, but I still think Sony should have thought up a better way to go about this. There's no reason Sony couldn't have some kind of solution in place for all you "O OS" guys, before they even did this.

Even though I don't put the blame for having to do this on Sony(it rest's squarely on that scumbag hacker), my feeling is that the way Sony's handled it pertaining to you O OS guys, is that I think they just might have "jumped the shark" a bit too early on this one.


Last edited by BikerSaint on 4/2/2010 2:22:47 AM

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bridgera
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 2:43:11 AM
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Here's how you generally get onto PSN WITHOUT doing the firmware update and is TOTALLY within EULA.

Actually happened to find this:

“to connect to psn without updating and without using pc-proxy servers simply use this DNS: 67.202.81.137 and you are done.”

At first I thought it was crap, then decided to try it, did that, tried it, didn't work, changed a couple of other network settings, and tried it again, and low and behold, it actually worked.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but I'm actually downloading Episode 7 of the tester now w/o FW 3.15.

If anyone knows what that has to do with anything, please let me know lol.

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RadioHeader
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 8:25:10 AM

It means the PS3, once again, only does everything.

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:08:51 AM

Yep, right up until Sony block the known proxies, and them updates the PSN login to operate in a way that cannot be proxied, and so the escalation continues. This is precisely the kind of thing that doesn't help anyone.

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Darthvintage
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:06:37 PM

What i dont understand is.

You had Roughly 600$ To spend on a ps3 and you cant just install linux on a computer?

Stop being a Troll

I Have Been Reading Your Post's and no matter how i look at it. You are one of those People that support piracy.

And piracy is one of the reason developers lose sales. NOT THE CONSOLE ITSELF, DEVELOPERS.

Sony is only trying to protect them.

Honestly Stop Being A Troll

Edit: Wrong Post Sorry

Last edited by Darthvintage on 4/2/2010 1:09:06 PM

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bridgera
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 3:07:16 PM

@Stop being a troll

I presume you meant someone else.

@Highlander

"This is precisely the kind of thing that doesn't help anyone."

I disagree with you here. It gives people like me access to PSN and allows me access to my Linux partition until I can file with either the FTC, BBB, or my state attorney general and resolve this issue.

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:58:33 PM

Bridgera, you're wasting your time.

As for the proxy workaround, that's just another escalation against Sony, which will surely bring an eventual response. That is why it's not needed. Because of the selfish actions of a few, others are hurt. You've already been a victim of the selfish actions of a few thanks to GeoHot, but you can't or won't see that.

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bridgera
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 1:26:05 AM

Highlander I will argue with you no longer. I'm just going to quote a law student. If that's not good enough, call a lawyer, they will tell you the same thing.

Claim: But you have the option of choosing whether to keep the 'ability' to have Linux or not.

Refuting Argument: This is where the issue of Bait and Switch comes in. Officially stated, it is as follows:

Sec. 238.4 Switch after sale.

No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:

(a) Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,

(b) Failure to make delivery of the advertised product within a reasonable time or to make a refund,

(c) Disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product, or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs, or in any other respect, in connection with it,

(d) The delivery of the advertised product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement. [Guide 4]

In simple English, this means you can't take away advertised functions (we established that Linux was an advertised function with the above refutation) at a later date. Now either way, choosing to install or not install doesn't matter. Either way, you lose an advertised functionality.

Claim: Sony did not violate the law. Linux wasn't even a core feature! There's no false advertising or Bait and Switch.

Refuting Argument: Quoting Jaecyn42:

"The FTC defines "advertisement" as "any form of public notice however disseminated or utilized." In this case, the second Sony owned and maintained website, detailing how to install an alternate OS on a PS3. In a legal sense, Other OS is an advertisement feature of the applicable models of the Sony PS3."

Claim: Read the ToS/EULA! This provision X and Y states that they can do this and this!

Refuting Argument: The ToS/EULA does not supercede Federal Law. If Federal Law deems it illegal, the ToS/EULA doesn't have any legal foothold. As Jaecyn42 puts it simply:

I don't know how you can sit there and tell me no wrong doing on Sony's part, every lawyer (all 2) that I know in real life say this is a very easy case and actually directed me to the BBB, FTC, and Attorney General's Office.

Last edited by bridgera on 4/3/2010 1:35:03 AM

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Highlander
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 2:07:25 AM

Go waste your time then.

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bridgera
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 2:26:22 AM

"go waste your time then"

Excellent counter point to legal referals.

Last edited by bridgera on 4/3/2010 2:27:25 AM

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Highlander
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 8:44:06 PM

Bridgera, you said

"Highlander I will argue with you no longer."

Then you quoted a law student - who I'm *so* sure has *so* much more experience on the topic of contract, user license and intellectual property law than those employed by Sony.

What more did you expect me to do, pretend to be a lawyer and refute each of your friends points? Quoting a statute has no impact because it does not touch the merits of your case, you have to dissect all of the applicable laws, the PS3 EULA you agreed to, the Yellow Dog Linux EULA you agreed to, the EULA for PSN, and any and all times you agreed to install the new firmware on your PS3. You've already said you'll argue no further, so neither will I. I'm not going to fruitlessly attempt to dissuade you from a pointless chase in law.

As I said, if you're bound and determined to do this, go ahead and waste *your* time.

Last edited by Highlander on 4/3/2010 8:46:18 PM

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DeathOfChaos
Monday, April 05, 2010 @ 9:55:20 AM

@bridgera;
So you just proved that you can get past that then. So there isn't a lawsuit that can be had against Sony then. Also, Sony could explain how Gehott had gotten around the Hyperviser if the time ever comes, and then Gehott will probably be searched for and arrested. Then Gehott would be tried for tampering with the PS3, lol. I wonder if that would make it on big time news stations? It was because of that guy that the PS3 and the PSN were threatened of being compromised through the use of Linux being ran on the PS3. Also, you saying how you got past it will probably reach around the internet, hit Sony's ears, and then the next firmware update will probably block that form of getting around the system in some way, lol.

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PrestoX
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 5:32:03 AM
Reply

@Highlander
You said that if PS3 would be cracked, this may force a price game increase, ya?
Lets see the nowadays scenario:
Is Xbox360 hacked? Yes.
Is Wii hacked? Yes.
Is PS3 hacked? No.
Are PS3 games cheaper than 360? No
Is DS hacked? Yes
IS PSP Hacked? Yes
Someone said that PSP is over, due to piracy, it's not true, DS has that same "problem" and it's growing on the market.
Does piracy cause damage to Sony? Yes
Is piracy good for Sony? Yes, too. The piracy had brought a lot of gamers to Sony's first console (PS1) and is this first huge amount of fans that still "carry on" the PS3.
Ok, piracy don't make miracles, Sony and his developers had maid a great work, bringing us amazing games, but my point is that piracy is a component on the game market, and is not so bad as people say, as it somehow works as an advertisement and if you or anyone more guarantee me that if without piracy a PS3 game will cost 10 or 20 bucks, I will be the first to combat it.

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:12:09 AM

Hey Presto!

Math is easy.

If it costs me $25million to make a game and I have potential sales of 3 million copies. Let's say piracy amounts to 10% lost sales, which means I now have to spread my $25 million over 2.7 million units instead of 3 million. That makes the game less profitable. The same math applied to console makers who sell their consoles at a financial loss knowing that they will make up the loss on game royalties and licensing fees for accessories.

I don't know about you, but when you reduce the number of sales because of theft you are reducing revenue and profit. If a game maker can't make money selling games at $60 because of theft (piracy) then they can either make crappier (and cheaper) games, or jack up the price. Which would you rather have?

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Simcoe
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:53:24 AM

Actually, here in Canada, new exclusive PS3 titles are usually $10 cheaper than XBOX360 exclusives. Of the titles released so far this year: God of War 3, MAG, Yakuza 3, MLB 10: The Show, Heavy Rain, Star Ocean, White Knight Chronicles, all PS3 exclusives all $59.99, compared to Alan Wake, Forza Motorsport 3...well that's pretty much it for 360 exclusives since last October...anyways both of them are listed at $69.99.

Last edited by Simcoe on 4/2/2010 10:54:48 AM

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fluffer nutter
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 11:12:38 AM

I tend to see Xbox 360 games cheaper in the stores, even with piracy but that's just the way it is. The stores feel that Microsoft has a better hold so the retailers carry more stock of their games. Sadly, this is why you see cheaper Xbox 360 games.

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Arvis
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 11:28:18 AM
Reply

I wonder if this whole piracy issue connects somehow to these stats:

A reportedly higher tie-in ratio on the 360 over the PS3.

-and yet-

Companies like EA reporting that they make more money from the PS3.

Hmm... These things were both reported to be true, yet they seem to conflict. Could anyone here expound?

-Arvis

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Darthvintage
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 1:16:15 PM

@Arvis

Could you please quote everything?
so i can fully understand?

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 3:02:48 PM

Well, I don't know precisely how that Tie ratio is calculated, so I can't really comment on it. However real dollars and cents talk more loudly than tie ratios. If the PS3 with a smaller (at the time) population could make more money for EA, then you absolutely have to consider that piracy might be affecting the bottom line on 360 games.

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Fane1024
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 1:35:30 AM

The main reason for the disparity: only Activision consistently sells more units on the 360, but they sell a lot more units.

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PrestoX
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 3:14:40 PM
Reply

Math is easy, if you use only two variables.

But game market and how piracy affects it, are much more complex than this your simple math.

Do you think that every game someone downloaded is a game that would be sure sold?
I'm sure no. Some people have plenty of games the got by P2P (most of them they would never bought) and they still buy some (those they really enjoyed and the amount they can afford)
Sometimes we found a game that become a pleasant surprise, and we decided to buy it, i.e P2P works like a demo.
Again I'm not defending the piracy, but I'm saying that this subject is not so simple as you exposed, and I will be not surprised to know that some game companies sometimes encourage and facilitate this kind of distribution (piracy) as a form of publicity.

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Highlander
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 10:56:10 PM

Hey presto,

Here's the deal, you are not going to come up with an argument that alters a couple of simple things.

It's not software piracy, it's theft. You're playing a game that you obtained without paying for it. Let's not call it something it's not, it's stealing, those doing it are thieves.

Secondly, you are not going to come up with any argument that persuades me that software theft is not bad for the industry and bad for honest consumers. Sure those thieves don't think it's bad for anyone. Show me a thief who gives a damn about the victim, oh, right, there are non. Those software thieves believe in some weird form of collective property that means that if they can download it without paying, then it's OK and free. Whatever kiddies.

You can claim that you *only* use it as a form of demo, you could always join gamefly and get the game that way - legitimately instead. Strange how everyone who says that they are part of the P2P thing says that they *only* use it to try before they buy. I'm certain that some truly do that, but the majority do not.

There are already documented cases of software theft destroying (yes destroying) the sales of games on the PC platform. It doesn't take a genius to see the connection between software theft (aka piracy) and games not selling well and developers not getting a return on their investment of time and money. What should developers do in that case? they have two options, make less risky investments of time and money by making cheaper, inferior games, raise their prices, or go out of business.

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Lobosabio
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 6:33:26 PM
Reply

Sorry... are someone thinking about being millioneir because of a suit to Sony?

they simply should refurbish you the cost of your YDL OS...

Oh, Wait... Yellow Dog Linux WAS FOR FREE!!!

0$ for the gentleman. case closed. next...

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Darthvintage
Friday, April 02, 2010 @ 8:44:11 PM

Lobo
Thank you for bringing this up

YDL Pheonix Was Open Source.

Their is no way that sony could be sued for something that was given to them for free.

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fluffer nutter
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 1:21:18 AM

LOL @ the two of you.

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main_event05
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 11:16:54 AM
Reply

From my understanding Linux was pretty suckey on the PS3 anyway.

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Highlander
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 8:39:28 PM

With only 256MB or RAM, yes, it was, you could barely get a GUI up and running on it and still have memory left for running Firefox. I'm sure it got a bit better, but even 4 years ago 256MB was a tiny amount of RAM for Linux, never mind for a Linux development system.

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Deleted User
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 2:26:50 PM
Reply

Tsk, tsk. The vocal minority has been laying it on Sony at the official boards. They are threatening to litigate, litigate, litigate over it. I wish these people would just stop. They sue over such petty things like this. You can get a PC for $100 and run your Linux with it. Some people really need to get a life.

I haven't updated, BTW. I'm leery of these updates bricking my PS3 again.

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Highlander
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 8:48:56 PM

I've updated a couple of 60GB original fats and no problems. The worst thing I have had happen is occasional lockups in Home, but that is an HDD issue, not firmware.

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Blaiyan
Saturday, April 03, 2010 @ 9:59:44 PM
Reply

You people can argue back and forth all day. This is a downgrade garbage firmware release. It adds nothing and removes a supposedly advertised feature for no reason other than maybe fear and greed. I am also holding off on updating and will wait and see if sony does the right thing because of pressure (sadly) and releases a new firmware update.

The extreme fanboys defend Sony and the Selfish simply don't care and both are angry at people for complaining about removing a feature. I mean when was the last important update that adding any big requested feature to PS3? After all this time this is what we get? A feature removal? And you folks are fine with that? Unbelievable.

People are trying to protect sony's future and not locking at their own. What happens when sony thinks it's best for them that you don't have BC? You're think it can't happen. They won't do that. I'm sure that's what some thought when sony supposedly said Install Other OS wouldn't be touched. How about internal memory cards, pictures, etc. All these companies can keep saying they take no responsibility and reserve the right to do whatever they want it their TOS but it doesn't mean they should.

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firesoul453
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 1:41:07 PM
Reply

I serously almost listed my ps3 on ebay after this update.
I am pissed!!!! at sony.

The only reason I didn't buy a 360 is that I would miss the good exclusives and the 360 doesn't have linux support either

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Dingodial
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 5:12:13 PM
Reply

It would be nice if sony included a patch that lets me play mp3 tracks (not just AAC)on certain games that allow your music to be played (or is that up to developers??).

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Highlander
Sunday, April 04, 2010 @ 5:55:04 PM

They already support custom sound tracks, the game developer has to hook into the firmware to allow it, but the firmware supports it already.

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