Guerrilla: Working With 3D Can Benefit The 2D Experience

We know Sony wants to restrict 3D games to 720p resolution, and we know the new technology can indeed impact the overall visual presentation.

But Guerrilla, currently in the process of developing the 3D-enabled Killzone 3, has adopted a different, more positive, outlook. In fact, if you check out this cool video interview with team boss Steven Ter Heide, he says working with 3D has actually allowed them to enhance the game's standard 2D appeal.

"That means that the tech guys back home are very hard at work to make sure that the performance gets up there. That benefits the entire game because we need to make sure that 3D runs at 30 frames [per second] and that benefits the 2D version obviously as well."

He adds that it's actually quite the challenge; there are "very subtle changes that initially you don't think about." In truth, they're probably things we gamers wouldn't think about, either; for instance, the crosshair. As Ter Heide says, even though it's not actually part of the game world, you still have to figure out where it resides. In other words, where do you place it in terms of depth? It sort of sounds like he's saying that simply because they have to work harder, the entire project benefits from that extra effort. From extra effort to support another viewpoint comes better understanding, right? Seems to make sense.

Related Game(s): Killzone 3

Tags: killzone 3, 3d, guerrilla, development

7/18/2010 8:58:43 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (63 posts)

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ShadowRunner
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 9:55:17 PM
Reply

I like their positive attitude, I have no doubt they're delivering a solid game.

10 up, 0 down

manofchao5
Thursday, July 22, 2010 @ 10:07:08 PM

the way i see it if the developers are good enough to get 720p @30fps running 3d then they can either pump out up to 1080p or 720p @60fps in 2d because it would be around the same since 3d requires two screens processed at once 720p = 1megapixel while 720p in 3d is 2 1megapixel screens being processed and 1080p is 2 megapixels

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 9:59:38 PM
Reply

So why doesn't that translate into 60fps for us poor little 2D lovers?

5 up, 2 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:13:44 PM

Playing Killzone 2 now. The game really would have benefited from 60/fps.

3 up, 1 down

Temjin001
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:36:46 PM

My thoughts exactly, World.

While I fully expect KZ3 to be an awesome shooter that has the capacity to become a favorite FPS of mine (and I expect it to, perhaps the placebo effect alone will get it there), the hands-on feedback I've observed from those who've played the E3 demo (Alpha Code) has given me cause to be skeptical of the real benefits by adding 3D coded support.

Joystiq.com claims a definite loss in resolution while playing the game demo with 3D enabled.

Whereas, I remember reading a headline that KZ3 will suffer "no loss in graphical fidelity" while being displayed in 3D ( John Carmack also claimed a similar thing with Doom 3's conversion from the PC to Xbox. While the port was indeed excellent, it was far from the same fidelity) Can this be true? Has GG found a way to have complete fidelity parody between 2D and 3D?

While I doubt any of us on these message boards have worked with stereoscopic 3D before I don't think it's inaccurate to make the assumption that this probably isn't true. Especially considering that their very own, albeit early, E3 game demo couldn't meet that claim.

What it all boils down to is this.
If 3D is, in fact, more taxing on hardware to implement, it is only obvious that a more simple 2D output would yield less of a processing overhead.

And as you put it WorldEndsWithMe, why then doesn't this translate to increased performance while playing the game strictly in 2D?

The ultimate concern I have of this whole 3D movement is just this. Assuming that my assumptions are correct, will 2D gamers be robbed from the full potential of the PS3's 2D output if devs restrain processing to ensure parody between 2D and 3D modes?
If so, I don't want it, not yet. Bring it out on a future system when 3DTV's are more saturated into the public. Because, until then, the majority of us will be getting less out of our little black box.

5 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 12:53:44 AM

As long as the res stays at 720p i don't see a problem. If 3D games are going to be at least 720p why would 2D suffer?

0 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 2:25:17 AM

You could say they suffer if, as my ninja friend said, they want the 3D and 2D versions to be as similar as possible and don't make the 2D play at a faster fps. I guess my thing is, if its at 720p and 30fps in 3D, then why can't they up the frame rate on the 2D play? Cuz, well it's just smoother and prettier.

0 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:12:00 AM

@Worlds,

Are you sure it doesn't translate to 60fps for 2D? To render 720p30 in 3D the game has to render 60 frames per second, but it's rendering 30 per second for each eye's point of view. So the stereoscopic 3D in 7290p30 is 60 frame per second, it's just 30 per eye.

In 2D that should translate to a rock solid 60 frames per second because in order to achieve a rock solid 30 frames per second 3D experience the game has to be capable of pushing 60 frames per second anyway, and besides 2D takes less rendering work because all the images are from the same point of view.

Last edited by Highlander on 7/19/2010 9:12:10 AM

1 up, 0 down

Shams
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:28:38 AM

That's just it. I don't want my 2D experience watered down by 3D when I know I won't be having 3D. So at least give us the option to turn it on and off. Non-3D play would enable 1080p at 30fps rendering, or perhaps, 720p at 60fps (I'd prefer the boost in framerate). 3D play enabled would be rendered at 720p at 30fps. Only in the case of optimization settings can it then be said that 2D "benefits" for 3D in any way.

0 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 10:14:54 AM

Killzone 3 in 3D is not going to be the only option Shams. I think Sony is smart enough to understand that making 3D only games is a loser. Of course there will be an option.

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 3:05:35 PM

Well Highlander, to be honest I don't know but I get the creeping feeling that if it hasn't been mentioned yet it ain't happening. It would look REALLY good at that framerate though. The movements just have that realistic feel to them you don't see at 30.

0 up, 0 down

frostface
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:15:50 PM
Reply

I'm afraid we're gonna have to accept games being downgraded (if only minimally) to accommodate 3D gaming. I have no doubt in my mind KZ3 will be amazing, just wish they'd hold off on this 3D tech until it's fully compatible without sacrificing anything.

3 up, 1 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:17:08 PM

There aren't that many games that are 1080p native anyway so i don't see it as having to downgrade.

How can we complain we're not getting games in 1080p anymore when we really weren't to begin with.

I would love to see more games in 1080p but it just doesn't happen. Its when games are lower res then 720p is what pisses me off.

2 up, 2 down

FM23
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:25:16 PM

Ha...Transformers WFC says 480P on the back...I didn't know they even made games under that resolution anymore. Seriously what is the point of buying a 1080P TV for gaming when most games play under 720P.

4 up, 1 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:31:02 PM

480p is mandatory because not everyone has a HDTV. The native resolution is still 720p, its just the game is able to display at lower res so people who don't have HDTV's aren't left out.

Most games should be 720p Native but some developers for some reason decide to make them less. Games like RDR(on PS3), Alan Wake, Splinter Cell and Halo Reach don't reach 720p as their highest resolution.

If you have an HDTV and a HDMI cable Transformers will display in 720p native if that is in fact its native resolution. If you notice all games will say 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p on the back with the native res highlighted in red. For PS3 games anyway.

Last edited by Jawknee on 7/18/2010 10:32:43 PM

1 up, 1 down

kraygen
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:40:23 AM

Here's my problem with 3d and 1080p. I understand that right now very few games run in 1080p, however I would expect that as times went on, more and more of them would have.

Instead, now none of them will because they'll be implementing 3d instead and automatically making it 720p.

I would have rather they held off on 3d, until every game coming out was 1080p, then when 3d could easily be done in 1080p brought it out. I know ppl will say that right now thats not possible, but that's kinda the point, tech is always advancing and I'd rather wait until this was possible with 3d.

One tech at a time, very man ppl are still using SD, why bring about 3d, keep games at 720p, when 3d will only cater to the smallest margin.

4 up, 1 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:20:21 AM

@Kraygen,

I don't think we were/are ever going to see many games rendering at 10980p on the PS3. You'll see almost none (if any) actually render at anything like 1080p on the 360. The reason is that even with the Cell BE at maximum output, the hardware is pushed really hard to do 1080p, and you have to compromise the texture quality, graphical complexity and post effects used in order to achieve 1080p rendering.

As we discussed in another thread recently, some 360 games claim 1080p output, but they still render at or below 720p, the output is scaled from the actual render, so it's not truly 1080p, it's simply a cheat that depends on semantics.

The 1080p games on the PS3 that claim 1080p are rendering to a higher target. Some don't quite render at full 1080p, and use tricks like dynamically altering the render resolution to cope with situations where the frame rate is threatened. Even with the sheer power of the CellBE, 1080p is a push.

Switching gears and going after 3D is not going to deflect any games from hitting 1080p, because few if any games are/were going to hit 1080p anyway.

Sony specified 720p for 3D with 30 frames per second for each eye. That is the equivalent of 2D in 720p60. If every game this generation managed to render at 720p60, we'd have a lot of very awesome looking games. As it is, many games do *NOT* render full 720p60. Many don't hit the framerate, some don't hit the resolution, and some hit neither the resolution nor the framerate. At least this way there is a mandate that may push game developers to actually hit the real 720p target in the first place?

5 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 10:17:23 AM

What Highlander is saying makes sense. I hope hes right. KZ3 in 720p with 60/fps would make me very very happy.

2 up, 0 down

kraygen
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 7:06:47 PM

I didn't even mean specifically the ps3, future systems as well, it'll be all too easy for them to continue this trend.

I'm still just saying I'd rather have 1080p than 3d.

2 up, 0 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 7:32:42 PM

It wasn't going to be 1080p to begin with!

0 up, 1 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 10:15:53 PM
Reply

Well this is good news if true. I'm stoked. I hope they improve your partners AI in KZ3. I'm playing KZ2 again right now, i forgot how useless and annoying Rico the others can be. They constantly get in your way and get wounded forcing you to baby sit while you get shot to hell.

1 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:09:42 PM

It did feel like the Helghast AI was smarter than your comrades didn't it?

1 up, 1 down

sirbob6
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:28:59 PM

I think they said in an interview for KZ2 that they had to scale back friedly AI because they would kill everyone in the room with ease and leave no one for you to kill. However I think they might of scaled it back to much.

3 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:30:19 PM

Much smarter. I'm trying to beat it on Hard at the moment and Rico is doing nothing but getting me killed in the Radec fight.

@sirbob6, they should have made them at least smart enough to stay out of your way. I can't even count how many times they stopped in the middle of a corridor while Helghast was blasting us only to clog the hall getting me killed.

Last edited by Jawknee on 7/18/2010 11:32:03 PM

1 up, 1 down

RebelJD
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:39:19 PM
Reply

Hard at work to make 3D "believable". I dig it.

0 up, 0 down

Alienange
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:52:57 PM
Reply

Sounds like a prolonged development cycle for nothing. Why waste all this time making a game in 3D for the 14 people who will benefit?

2 up, 1 down

Jawknee
Sunday, July 18, 2010 @ 11:54:33 PM

The game is out in Feb 2011. Two years development time is NOT prolonged.

1 up, 1 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 12:02:11 AM

Make that 15 people, got most of the money saved up for my new 3d t.v! ;)

1 up, 0 down

Alienange
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 12:10:25 AM

Ok bigrailer19. Do it if you have to, but don't forget the batteries and don't come back complaining about how many games you could have gotten instead. :P

0 up, 1 down

sirbob6
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 12:12:25 AM

@alienage
Come after the holiday season quite a few more people will have 3d, plus a 2 year development time is the development time of the CoD series so its not that long.

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:27:38 AM

Dude, people were saying the exact same thing about HD games and HDMI approximately 4-5 years ago. Things change, and quickly.

3 up, 0 down

kraygen
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:45:04 AM

@ highlander

True, 4-5 years ago ppl were saying that about HD, thing is that was 5 years ago, today there are still a lot of ppl saying that about HD.

Also, right now HD is finally worth having, because you can get everything in HD. In about 5 years, 3d will probably be worth having too, but right now, I don't really see much point in spending over $3000 so that me and my wife can watch the occasional thing in 3d.

In 5 years we'll probably be able to watch anything in 3d, but there will probably be a lot of ppl still complaining that it's too expensive.

2 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 2:32:09 AM

Yes, but what I'm getting at is that 3D starts now, and the only way it will develop is if there is content for it. Had the content providers listened to the naysayers 4-5 years ago, we wouldn't have games at anything better than 480p, and movies would still be DVD only.

3 up, 0 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 6:31:10 PM

Well to be honest I'm in the market for a new t.v. regardless if it was 3-d or not. But since im almost to the amount I need to get a 3-d t.v. why not opt for it? I mean it does everything my hdtv does right now and more so, I promise I will not complain to you! ;)

I mean its like xbox360 or PS3? HDTV or 3d HDTV?

The choice is clear! ;)

3 up, 0 down

kraygen
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:46:24 AM
Reply

I can see their point about it improving the 2d quality, but I still would have preferred to have KZ3 in 1080p instead of 3d, because I won't be able to enjoy that until a few years from now.

Props to the 5 ppl who will get to play KZ3 in 3d on day 1 tho.

0 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 2:27:19 AM

That will include Ben if he ever buys his goofy dummy goggles.

1 up, 3 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 6:32:36 PM

Make that 6, almost got enough saved up! Thats weird earlier someone said 13 people! Either way add me to the list!

2 up, 0 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 6:35:28 PM

KZ2 wasn't even in 1080p, so please stop making it sound like 1080p is a standard when its not. I agree it would be nice if it was, and I also agree that it should be something to strive for. But the fact of the matter is the technology isn't up to par for it yet. Well the technology is there but to use it so sufficiently to where nothing would suffer in such case, its just not entirely possible right now!

1 up, 0 down

kraygen
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 7:07:43 PM

never said 1080p was standard, not even close.

0 up, 0 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 7:37:25 PM

Your absolutely right, and what I said is you make it sound that way. You constantly hit on 3d for not being 1080p, yet 1080p is few and far between RIGHT NOW anyways. Not to mention I'll put money on it that KZ3 wasn't going to be in 1080p anyways, so you might as well move past this.

1 up, 1 down

___________
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 2:59:20 AM
Reply

i just finished reading gameradars preview of KZ3 in 3D and am really disappointed.
i was expecting to see proper 3D as in debris shrapnel and bullets flying out of the screen, but apparently there not going to add that.
apparently there only having a 3D depth put in there, there is not going to be anything flying out of the screen.
WTF is the point of that!?
having crap fly out of the screen is the whole point of 3D!
3D without crap flying out the screen is as point full as a car without a engine!
sure it looks good, but whats the point!?

0 up, 1 down

The Stig
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:17:29 AM

I get what you're saying. The real wow factor with 3D is stuff coming out of the screen, but depth also plays a big part in 3D immersion.

1 up, 0 down

Shams
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:43:11 AM

I've heard that MotorStorm 3 will be actually be best showcase and pusher of 3D, with the debris-flying-out-of-screen effect you speak of.

0 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:57:43 AM

Well, that's how Motorostorm got this generation started, so I guess it's natural for the next evolution of Evolution's game is 3D with debris flying off the screen.

0 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 10:16:18 AM

You decided to hate this game before Cowherd so whats the difference?

1 up, 0 down

RadioHeader
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:03:32 PM

Knowing Flatliner, he'll get his crap flying out the screen but complain that it just disappears rather than build up on his living room floor.

3 up, 0 down

sirbob6
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 4:28:16 PM

The whole bullet flying at you would look very gimmicy, just like 3d movies from the 70s.

0 up, 0 down

bigrailer19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 6:38:50 PM

Radioheader- haha you nailed that one. Its very true that he would complain about that! Thats awesome!

about the preview. I think a lot of misinterpretation is happening. The game play at E3 was in pre-alpha stage. It can't be much further along. So anything we seen or gameradars seen, is not what the final product will produce. Just letting you know, some things could drastically change!

Last edited by bigrailer19 on 7/19/2010 6:39:32 PM

1 up, 0 down

JackC8
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 7:52:59 AM
Reply

I doubt that the little things they learn from working with 3-D will make make up for the huge amount of time being spent on 3-D that otherwise would be put into making more and better levels and that sort of thing.

0 up, 1 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:21:28 AM

You might be surprised.

0 up, 0 down

Shams
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 10:12:02 AM

I hope so.

The advantage of sequels is that man-hours/development time is saved as the engine for the game does not have to be built from scratch, and even when it is, knowledge from the previous development cycle isn't wasted, as pitfalls to be avoided and optimization tricks learned are to be put to use.

This may very well still be the case. However, I'd rather see budget, man-hours and resources spent on evolving things like gameplay, level-design, and story (things that all of us will enjoy) rather than it spent on a feature that a very small fraction of us will enjoy.

I understand the need to push 3D content for the sake of allowing 3D to emerge in the market. I just hope that Sony recognizes what happened in the HD race. 1080p was vaunted, but 720 was settled upon for the vast majority gaming and HD broadcasted Television. In that case, I could've just saved me a few hundred dollars and stuck with a 720p TV over 1080p one. So, if the vast majority of content will still remain 2D (and at 720p mind you), why should I now spend at least another grand and a half on yet another feature that I will hardly benefit from?

0 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 10:18:43 AM

I think people are assuming the worst without reason. The footage we saw at E3 looked great. Killzone 2 was great, they promise 3 will be better, i think we should reserve judgment until the game is out.

2 up, 0 down

Highlander
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 11:20:36 AM

@Shams

1080p is achieved by some games. 1080i rendered games actually look pretty freaking awesome on a 1080p screen, and of course BluRay looks sweet too.

The other thing is that 720p output looks better on a 1080p screen.

Finally, when this generation of console games launched, no one, including Sony, really knew what was involved in getting a console game to run at 1080p. Remember there are some games that manage to run at that level. A lot of games (multi-plats) are always going to be 720p or less because they are multi-platform. Some exclusives render in 1080i, and depending on the game some claim 1080p. But really, it depends on the game as we've all talked about before.

I mean 1080p is possible, but if game designers feel that 720p is good enough and by sticking to 720p they can apply more complex textures and post processing effects, they'll stick to 720p. That's not exactly Sony's (or anyone else's fault).

1 up, 0 down

CharlesD
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:29:41 PM

It's often the little things that make the biggest difference

1 up, 0 down

Shams
Tuesday, July 20, 2010 @ 5:31:18 PM

@Highlander:

It's not that I blame Sony for pushing 1080p as a feature on TV's (I would've if Sony pushed ND to support 3D with U2, and U2 suffered for it). It's just that I'd blame MYSELF if I wasted a couple grand for a 3DTV, knowing fully well that I'd be spending even more money for a very limited selection of content that actually supports 3D.

I waited until 2009 for a Full-HD TV. I'd like to enjoy that now. If I can't enjoy 1080p, then let me have games that are optimized for 720p (2D), at least. If Guerilla ends up doing that, I'll be happy.

0 up, 0 down

Godslim
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 9:44:27 AM
Reply

tbh hd is cool but 3-d man i really dont care

2 up, 0 down

RadioHeader
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:11:26 PM

Your eyebrows are getting grumpier by the day, Mr.Grumpy!

*private joke*

1 up, 0 down

Jawknee
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:13:15 PM

Looks more smug then grumpy.

1 up, 0 down

RadioHeader
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 1:58:22 PM

The other week I congratulated him on his friendly cheerful eyebrows, but after reading his comments lately I swear the devil's gotten into them.

0 up, 1 down

Godslim
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 3:30:40 PM

hehe im just saying seems like i could easily go without it and am not buying a whole new tv to get it

1 up, 0 down

RadioHeader
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 4:00:47 PM

Yeah, I'm just kidding. My TV's less than 6 months old so I won't be dashing out for one either... unless GT5 3D wows me.

0 up, 0 down

gangan19
Monday, July 19, 2010 @ 11:24:41 PM
Reply

all my money goes to your hard work either way...I'm happy that these guys aren't lazy

2 up, 0 down

leatherface
Tuesday, July 20, 2010 @ 3:32:21 AM
Reply

I can't wait to see KZ3 in action this sunday at San Diego Comic-Con. The Sony booth will also be demoing GT5 ( in 3D ), Little Big Planet 2, God of War; Ghost of Sparta, the Sly Cooper collection and the Playstation Move.

0 up, 0 down

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