Jaffe: GoW Was Never "Some Amazing Combat Simulator"
God of War IIIWell, this ought to generate plenty of discussion amongst the action aficionados.
If you've been following along with David Jaffe's railing against EA Louse at the designer's blog, you might've already stumbled upon this; if not, Spong stumbled upon it for you. In the comments beneath Jaffe's rant against the soon-to-be infamous EA Louse, a poster named Matthew said- "...to this day God of War series is mired in clunky, poorly automated combat (dodge on the right analog stick lol) and anyone with a clue considers Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, or Ninja Gaiden to have far superior controls and combat mechanics."
Now, that right there is enough to raise the ire of fans and one might think Jaffe would defend his creation - God of War - with great gusto. But you might be surprised at his reply:
"Matheww, you miss the point. We were not trying to go head to head with those games. ANYONE can see the pure technique involved in those games- or games like Bayonetta- blows the doors off GOD OF WAR. They are SUPPOSED to! In GOD OF WAR our goal was to get the player to feel like they were on an adventure that was easy to play, had cool scenarios, puzzles, platforming, etc.
The goal was NEVER to be some amazing combat simulator. Your reaction proves my point: you may not LIKE GOD OF WAR but you don't even stop to think that perhaps there are other goals and ways of doing things, not JUST the ones you like. And if you look at the GOD OF WAR sales compared to those games you mention, clearly- at least from a sales standpoint- we did something right."
Okay, well, here's our two cents on the issue- Jaffe's last point is the most important. While what he says is true, the God of War franchise outstrips the others simply due to better overall quality; each title is almost flawless in design and execution, which is why GoW will always stand head-and-shoulders above NG, DMC and Bayonetta. We do remember telling you Bayonetta had the deepest, most accomplished combat mechanic of the generation (which Jaffe may agree with), but we wouldn't even give the Xbox 360 version as high a score as any GoW. We doubt any critic would.
The point is that GoW's combat isn't broken. Far from it. It's actually pretty close to perfect for what it attempts to achieve. It strives to be both engaging and accessible, and allows us to appreciate other aspects of the production; aspects the developers likely put more effort into than in any DMC or NG title. This all being said, it's interesting to hear how Jaffe separates action experiences into "battle simulators" and non-battle simulators; we always thought it was relatively clear but apparently, it needed clarification.
Tags: god of war, bayonetta, david jaffe, gowiii
10/15/2010 10:03:49 AM Ben Dutka
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Comments (72 posts)
Qubex
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 10:27:08 AM
GoW's attraction is the tactical aspects of how to approach an enemy and slay it, using a combination of combos, positioning and reaction time. The puzzle elements adds to the "action/adventure" elements of the play through, giving the player a pause at certain points of the game, allowing for other "skills" to be used in order to get to the next point.
I think the balance is about right, even though in GoW III, some of the boss fights were pretty tough and needed quite a bit of button mashing and very quick reaction times. The demo exhausted me at times, but that is me, maybe I am just not quick enough.
Anyway, from what I have played of the title, I think the battle and action adventure elements are pretty well balanced, even though, at times, the game can be hard work...
Q!
"play.experience.enjoy"
Last edited by Qubex on 10/15/2010 10:28:44 AM
6 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:40:08 PM
Castlevania was a real surprise to me. It is by far the most content-rich game in the entire genre, filled to brim with not only the most stages, but the best level designs, clever and well-executed puzzles, deep combat, graphics nearly on par with GOW3, hollywood-calibre musical score, production values on par with DMC, and with most over-the-top ending out of all the other games. Not only that, but it came out of no where (not very well-known Spanish studio Mercury Steam previously known only for Jericho), and is a stellar example of a port effort with the ps3 taken as the lead console.
3 up, 0 down
KNG201
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 10:38:41 AM
Reply
0 up, 0 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:39:36 AM
3 up, 0 down
maxpontiac
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:01:01 AM
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7 up, 0 down
telly
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 12:51:33 PM
0 up, 0 down
Dustinwp
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:07:57 AM
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DMC and NG maybe listed in the same genre as GoW, but are very different games in what they are trying to achieve.
Last edited by Dustinwp on 10/15/2010 11:16:42 AM
5 up, 0 down
rockervi
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:28:51 AM
Reply
2 up, 2 down
Underdog15
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:28:52 AM
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The first thing that comes into my mind is the fact that we really DON'T want every game to attempt the same stuff! Some games do try to copy or mimic other titles, and in my opinion, it hurts the industry! (coughsqueenixcough)
The second thing is that games should have a variety of aspects that make it great. Bayonetta had sweet combat (and it was original!) but it had screen tearing issues, the story was kinda lame, and the chicks mole was way too big. Puzzles and openness was an issue for me as well.
So I guess I kinda agree about the simplicity in the GOW combat, but putting aside my personal tastes (GOW isn't something I personally got into too hardcore) it is the whole package. And the sales show.
I just hope people don't become too simplistic with narrow horizons. I swear this desire to make one game like the other is the reason we have so much mediocrity.
5 up, 1 down
Highlander
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:02:53 PM
But as you say;
"this desire to make one game like the other is the reason we have so much mediocrity"
0 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:40:10 PM
But yeah, in the case of a straight copy like MoH and all other modern war FPS I see nothing new there and it does sink into mediocrity.
2 up, 1 down
Alienange
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 5:37:05 PM
0 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 6:40:04 PM
Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 10/15/2010 6:41:20 PM
0 up, 0 down
Highlander
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:01:33 PM
Reply
The problem is that instead of seeing the distinctiveness of individual games, game genre and sub-genre, the mindset today is to lump together anything with third person combat and compare them with each other as if they were all the same, they're not. The same is true with first person games, or sand box games, or racing games. We do not look at the merits of the individual game because of what seems to be a compulsion to compare everything against some notional benchmark.
5 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:42:07 PM
1 up, 4 down
xXxSeTTriPxXx
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 8:32:15 PM
0 up, 0 down
fluffer nutter
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:02:46 PM
Reply
Last edited by fluffer nutter on 10/15/2010 12:03:02 PM
0 up, 0 down
Jawknee
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:14:27 PM
3 up, 0 down
Jawknee
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:04:28 PM
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I'd rather have fun than get tied down to learning tedious combos to progress in any game. God of War's combat is perfect for a fast paced action game in my opinion. I'm really liking Castlevania at the moment but the combat still isn't quite as good as God of War.
1 up, 2 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:45:01 PM
3 up, 0 down
Jawknee
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:48:51 PM
Nice...glad i got this game. It's great so far. The artistry is some of the best we've seen this generation.
0 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:00:47 PM
*Just remember, when you're turning the cranks, remember not to hold R2 while doing so. It won't be a problem early on, but in chapter 8 in the clock tower, you won't be able turn a crank fully for some reason if you are holding R2 by accident. Also, in that same chapter, remember that when climbing with your cross, you can climb/pull-up and push off simultaneously which will be a necessary maneuver. These are not documented for some reason, and were of the few moments that caused me frustration. But after 15 minutes of jaw-clenching, I figured it out.
2 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:13:14 PM
2 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 11:53:47 PM
0 up, 0 down
KNG201
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:10:02 PM
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0 up, 0 down
Snaaaake
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:12:21 PM
0 up, 0 down
Snaaaake
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:14:15 PM
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But the overall package GOWIII got it covered.
4 up, 0 down
Ergi
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:26:41 PM
2 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:45:21 PM
1 up, 4 down
Snaaaake
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 1:59:20 AM
Bayonetta's combat is one of the best of ALL TIME.
1 up, 1 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:23:44 PM
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Granted, I'm still learning Bayonetta, but from what I can tell, the game totally skips over several combat conventions that NGS2 incorporates. Never have a I played an action game that offers so much to learn as NGS2 does. Even when you think you've learned it all, you'll probably find a few new things along the way.
Bayanotta excels in it's breadth of design offerings: enemy weapon-drops, concocting potions, targeting, witch-time, torture system, and a robust combo system. It's a very offensive game: it reminds me of DMC in this respect.
However, Bayanotta has completely missing or sorely lacking components of play.
To start listing a few that come right to mind.
NGS2 has wall specific abilities. That is, the game has a set of maneuvers specific for running on a vertical wall. No other game has this from what I've seen. It's not for show. A diving swallow + boosted essence absorption is a powerful ally. Bayonetta has nothing like this. Yes, there are levels that incorporate a shifted plain by running on the wall, but there is no new behavior or abilities. The only thing that changes is that you're now on a wall or ceiling.
-Bayonetta has no blocking, only evading. This is huge. Don't think that blocking in NG is only for blocking attacks. Holding down the block button in many instances of play will stop essence abortion until you desire the essence for a UT or recovery. And like a fighting game, certain attacks cause guard crush effectively breaking one's guard for a follow up hit.
-NGS2 allows you to evade/dash towards a desired direction. This is significant. You'll learn this on the very first Ratzu boss fight (chapter 1). When he raises out his long arms to grab you it's insticntive to roll backward. But, if you roll backward, you'll probably and most often get snatched by Ratzu (resulting in instant death on MN) but if you roll towards one of his sides, you'll evade the grab. Bayanotta has a simple evade/witch-time button that doesn't allow you to control direction.
-The enemy damaging is purely cosmetic. Bayonetta's enemies will loose armor to reflect their lower vitality status, but they do not change behavior.
Opponents in NG respond to their weakened state. If a limb is missing their behavior changes. A dragon gargoyle will become defensive and retreat himself from Obliteration. Enemy ninja's will become relentless in inching their way towards you for a self-destructive kill.
-counter hits are not nearly as effective in Bayonetta. A combo finisher will result in a counter hit. But in NG, stun conditions are set for when and how many attacks connect at a certain instance. Usually, in a boss fight, if two attacks connect as counter hits it'll break the attack-flow of the boss. There's a lot more to CH hits that I won't go into now.
I could go on much more like, UT levels, weapon differences, forward momentum jumping attributes etc. but it's time consuming. I seriously hope that when people look at Bayonetta's combo list they aren't generalizing the combat system as "deeper" because it seems so by the list alone (that's not to say that NGS2 doesn't have the widest assortment of weapons and many combos of it's own)
I'm not saying Bayonetta doesn't have a lot of combat depth. It does. But compared to NGS2, there really has been no equal.
4 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:40:31 PM
0 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 12:52:15 PM
0 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:01:45 PM
Yeah, when thinking about it more Bayonetta has nothing dynamically momentum based.
In NG conditions change while running and attacking (or jumping or on a wall etc).
Notably. Shurikens. From mid to close range when closing the gap on a rocket launcher enemy, while running and upon throwing shurikens it will cause Ryu to dive forward. Allowing him to safely close the gap while momentarily stunning the enemy with shurikens. This effectively prevents rocket volleys.
There's also the dynamic while landing conditions too =)
Man, it's so dang deep!
0 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:20:47 PM
0 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:40:30 PM
BTW, I have to correct an error.
Bayonetta does, in fact, allow you to evade in a desired direction. By default you evade backwards, but holding in a desired direction will allow her to evade.
She also has a double jump, that can change attack properties.
It's not quite like the universal dynamic based system that NGS2 has in place. But it's nice seeing some dynamics of this sort in Bayonetta.
This discussion has got me curious to continue mastering Bayonetta's play mechanics. I'm testing it out now.
0 up, 0 down
Alienange
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:04:45 PM
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Jaffe knows what fun is. Why would he make some crazy hard combat simulator anyway? How is that any fun?
3 up, 0 down
Jawknee
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:08:52 PM
Exactly. LOL!
2 up, 0 down
telly
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 12:56:27 PM
0 up, 0 down
gumbi
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:16:11 PM
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Well done Jaffe, well done.
2 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:35:48 PM
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Think about it, in GOW you are slashing and slaying through long levels and while you sometimes need to kill all the baddies to continue, DMC and Bayonetta really pin you down into a small area to do your battles. GOW puts an emphasis on accessible flash and that feeling you get when you put together an epic combo and execution without trying too hard, in DMC you get your satisfaction by pulling off a difficult combo with precise input.
It's kind of like how Soul Calibur and DOA have a deep fighting mechanic, but you can usually do well by button mashing, yet that won't fly in Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter.
My hat is off the the NG fans, those games are definite battle simulators and are damn hard.
0 up, 0 down
Ergi
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 1:59:39 PM
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0 up, 0 down
NoSmokingBandit
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 2:37:01 PM
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0 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 2:37:21 PM
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While GoW3 does have the slowest combat, it's quite robust overall. Having completed both the Challenge of Olympus and Titan mode your average gamer-joe won't have the patience or desire to learn the play well enough to do so. Like any good action game of this sort. The more you know about the mechanics the easier the game becomes.
The game does have a number of in-depth elements that keep it in a tier competitive with the majority of action game types.
Personally, I don't like using the r-analoge to evade. But it still works well enough, especially when considering that it's a slower game. I think I preference the PSP GoW's evade mechanic in this regard.
Most games today have a "hold block and press towards a direction to evade" mechanic. NG, Castlevania, Darksiders (Bayonetta, too, if you consider that when evading in a desired direction you hit both a button input and a directional). Even lesser combat oriented games like Enslaved use this, but with an extra step of pressing an execute button (a total of 3-inputs is usually a no-no in my book) to initiate the evade.
2 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 5:23:04 PM
DMC had a fixed camera at times, but allowed you control during others with the right stick. And i think in Castlevania's case, they probably dropped the use of free camera in the end to eliminate screen-tearing, so the right stick is idle.
0 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 10:17:32 PM
I do see advantages and disadvantages to the chase cam, though (NG, Darksiders etc).
I really don't think about the camera system much with NG. I read about people complaining about it, but I rarely run into the problem because by habit I always know when to press the camera center button whenever needed. Problems crop up in tighter quarters though. When having your back near a wall the camera doesn't center behind you right. It sort of hangs out to the side, obstructing your field of view. I've ran into this problem most often at the Aqua Capital.
What I value most about NG"s camera is how close it places the camera into the action. Reading the opponents subtle gesture animation is very important when pre-emptively reacting to a given situation.
1 up, 0 down
slimey
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 2:41:41 PM
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My favourite combat though is in Demons Souls. Super simple to pick up with no combos to learn, but infinate detph in terms of custoising your combat style. Melee or ranged, speed or power, defensive or offensive....you can play that game in whatever style best suits your strenghs as a gamer, and kick some demon butz
1 up, 0 down
DarthNemesis
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 3:10:57 PM
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None of the other games can compare to GOW in story,depth of gameplay (none of them have grapples moves,LOS copied GOW) or the design of GOW.
They all lack the cinematic engagement that GOW offers.Kratos is easily a more fleshed out character and better character than the likes of the others.
Dante is cheesy and corny.Ryu had no personality and is a generic character.While Bayonetta has too much personality and is way over the top.
You are actually into Krato's world and what motivates him and you know more about his origins than the others.
The enemies are more varied in the way you attack them as well as how they attack you.Each size enemy has a different difficulty.
GOW has also raised the bar and set the standard for scale and boss fights.I really enjoy Castlevania LOS,but it lacks the little touches that GOW has.
So far the story or characters are not really interesting.LOS also just cut and pasted what the GOW franchise has done over the years so it lacks originality (which is why I like it because of the similarities to GOW).
GOW is the only game amongst it's competition that offers traversal game play,puzzles,platforming and great narrative and story telling.The collision detection,physics and hit detection are all superior in GOW.
Without GOW,Konami would not know how to finally make a GOOD 3D Castlevania game.
I grew up playing Castlevania on the NES/SNES,but it has fallen of during the 3D generation.
There is a reason why both Itagaki and Kamiya said that they want to compete with GOW and not the other franchises.Proof that GOW is the best or people who prefer the other games would not acknowledge GOW.
GOW accomplishes what it is suppose to do.Deliver an epic adventure cinematic experience and that completely makes the gamer feel POWERFUL.
All in all though.There really is no need to compare these franchises as they all have a place in gaming and should be enjoyed by action fans around the world.
4 up, 2 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 5:08:57 PM
NGS2 was more of a hack'n slash than it's predecessor (NG was more an all around action-adventure), but it definitely has the deepest gameplay of the series and the genre.
Regarding story, NGS2 is definitely the weakest with a story comparable to an 80's cartoon series, but the game is all about action and challenge. As said by Dustinwp, without a story, GOW would've failed. And without the gameplay, NG would've failed. Beat NGS/NGS2 on Master Ninja Mode, and GOW3 on Titan/Chaos mode, then you'll know what i mean.
But to be totally fair, story wasn't so much the highlight of GOW as much as the presentation, music and voice-acting was. Watch the cutscenes over youtube, and you'll see what i mean. I only saw that when i replayed the GOW collection and realized that there wasn't much of a story to it. Kratos is a fairly one-dimensional character (except in Chains of Olympus and for a glimmer in GOW3) out to exact revenge on Olympus, and the story, like in other action adventure games, is there to frame the action and give context to the locales you visit and the boss fights, which had it's fair share of plot-holes (especially in GOWiii). Where it did excel was in the presentation, of which it borderlined Hollywood. In this department GOW was superior to all other games of the genre, and was Sony's Uncharted during the ps2 generaton.
0 up, 0 down
DarthNemesis
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 5:29:44 PM
0 up, 0 down
Temjin001
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 10:38:43 PM
I have to disagree about your conviction of GoW3 being without equal in depth of play, and seeing that you haven't completed NGS, or NGS2, I won't engage in a discussion over the differences between the two, NG and Gow. Because, quite frankly, you've revealed how in-experienced you are to make qualified judgements ;)
And to make my NG experience known to you. Cumulatively, I've completed the first NG(xbox-PS3) and it's various iterations over 10x. I've completed NGS on Very Hard. I'm currently 1/3(chapter 7) of the way through NGS2 on Master Ninja difficulty. I don't state this to gloat, but to exhort you not to make short sighted conclusions of a game that you simply can not fully understand with your said experience. ANd I fully believe that if you are an accomplished GoW player, and came to know the NG system as well as you do GoW's, you'd agree about the complexity of NG's play.
But aside from that..
I will agree about GoW3's awesome grapple system. It was something I wanted to point out earlier. It is a unique quality to the game that is beyond all of it's competitors.
I also agree that Kratos has a far more interesting back story than most. He is simply a much more realized character than someone like Ryu. And there is no doubt, the presentation of the GoW's have been second to none. It's outstanding head to toe. And Gow3 still stands as one of the most impressive looking games I've ever played in my life.
2 up, 0 down
ryu
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 3:34:19 PM
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fun to watch, boring to play, if you ask me
0 up, 2 down
jaynet333
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 3:37:34 PM
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Also, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but Beyonetta did not come off has having very deep combat mechanics to me. Then again, I only played the demo and I wasn't terribly impressed so I didn't pick up the full game.
1 up, 0 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 5:33:02 PM
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1 up, 0 down
ValdiPS3
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 6:43:59 PM
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playing Castlevania Lords of Shadows anyone here suffer a "corrupted save data"? because people are saying that the PS3 version contains this bug.
0 up, 0 down
Jawknee
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 7:17:57 PM
0 up, 0 down
Shams
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 8:28:36 PM
0 up, 0 down
Victor321
Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 7:16:17 PM
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0 up, 0 down
___________
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 1:22:00 AM
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it actually requires some skill, proper timing and patience.
got better pacing too, especially in NG2 you do feel like your evolving, you feel like your the character and have spent weeks doing what you do in the game.
you never feel like deja vu, you never feel like havent i done this before?
where in GOW, especially GOW3 your almost saying that every 10 minutes!
they far too much on the anger, far too much on the gore lets rip everything to shreds, and forgot about the level design, the puzzles, the platforming.
the combat is not what makes GOW, its the story which in 3 is almost the worst in the history of games!
and its about the environments, the puzzles, the brutality.
sadly something GOW3 completely forgot!
ninja gaiden always has, and always will not better than GOW, but in a totally different league!
0 up, 2 down
bridgera
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 3:15:28 AM
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I finally picked up the GoW Collection. I was playing NG and GoW side by side for a few weeks. Finally I got good enough at NG to progress through the game without constantly dying. But around Chapter 14 or so, I quit caring.
GoW was way more fun than NG, ya, NG is a better battle simulator, but it's story & cutscenes were inferior to GoW.
Still haven't beaten NG yet.... just don't care, will probably sell it for $5 online someday.
0 up, 0 down
BikerSaint
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 3:16:15 AM
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Game Developer Attacks 'EA Louse'
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/game-developer-attacks-ea-louse/
0 up, 0 down
Nerull
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 7:32:00 AM
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The rest of it mostly comes down to personal taste. I love mythology and knew all the inspirations from the beginning so GoW fits me just fine and the graphics are some real sweet icing.
Still think the ending to the trilogy seemed pretty out of place. The rest of the series is almost non-stop badassery then it turns out like a high-school play, which is to say I think the dialogue could have been better.
That's kind of nitpicking though, my fav part of III was recognizing Kevin Sorbo.
0 up, 0 down
ryu
Saturday, October 16, 2010 @ 7:33:50 PM
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NG? should learn from GoW for the camera work, o snap!
1 up, 0 down
SmokeyPSD
Sunday, October 17, 2010 @ 9:30:33 AM
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1 up, 0 down
beharris9
Tuesday, October 19, 2010 @ 4:32:41 PM
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0 up, 0 down
bingshi
Tuesday, October 19, 2010 @ 9:44:08 PM
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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
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Friday, October 15, 2010 @ 10:19:03 AM
That's what Jaffe means by "battle simulator." For those games, the emphasis is squarely on the combat and little else. GoW excels in all areas. But the so-called action purists only care about combat...I don't particularly LIKE such people, but they do exist.