Does The Hardcore Mentality Wither With Age?
See Full ImageEither I'm losing a certain amount of dedication I once had, or I'm reverting to a time when my "completionist" mentality only applied to role-playing games...of which there are so few these days, I rarely find myself in what used to be a familiar "I need to do absolutely everything" position.
I have Gran Turismo 5. Now, I'm not going to get dragged into a dispute concerning whether or not the game is a disappointment; I haven't touched it and I don't plan to until I finish Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood. Arnold is doing the review and after talking to him about it, I started to wonder: will I adopt my 100% completion philosophy for the game? I did for all the past GTs so why wouldn't I want to this time around? But then, I looked back on the last few years and realized I'm not so heavily into any games that require a huge amount of time and dedication, and could - at times - cause tension. My gaming these days is all about relaxation and anything that seems even remotely like a chore often gets ignored.
I'm not saying GT is a chore. I'm saying there are some games that are fun without the necessity of full-on attention and concentration. I tend to gravitate towards them more, with the exception of RPGs. But even then, unless I really love the RPG, I'm not so much into doing everything there is to do. Even with Brotherhood, which I love, while I do plan to get 100% memory synch and renovate all of Rome, I won't find all the feathers or get golds on all the virtual training sessions or accomplish all guild goals. Because it's a lot like an RPG or GTA (and I always had 100% completionist goals in the GTA series), I want to do most everything...but the motivation to do it all, in just about any game, is lacking.
Thing is, it's most certainly not a decline in overall interest in the hobby. I still love games and still play quite often. I love everything about it and probably always will. But it could be a lack of time or something else entirely - perhaps age? - because I really don't care about Platinum Trophies or anything like that. And you know, a decade ago, I probably would've. I'll certainly play GT5 and I'm sure I'll enjoy it, but my mania for 100% probably won't exist. Then again, I've got Fable III sitting here and that might rekindle an old desire...it's an RPG, after all.
P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all. :)
Tags: game industry, hardcore gamer, video games, gaming habits
11/25/2010 10:10:28 PM Ben Dutka
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Comments (62 posts)
Dancemachine55
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:22:42 AM
I believe older gamers are far less interested in games that rely heavily on reaction timing and speed, you know, physical qualities in games that younger twitch gamers love so much. (Call of Duty is a great example of this)
Games that require strategy, intelligence, planning and offer enough time to do these things are often the most popular amongst the older gamers, and I am certainly hoping to see a resurgance in the RPG genre over the next few years once today's gamers age and mature. This will hopefully mean a switch from FPS populated markets to RPG and strategy populated markets. (Starcraft II still relies heavily on speed in multiplayer, which is annoying)
As for me, I'm finding less and less time to play games, never mind finishing them 100%. Even so, very few games have hooked me in this generation and made me feel like I need to achieve every last item or explore every inch of the world. Last game I remember where I felt that need was GTA San Andreas. Still my 3rd fave game of all time behind MGS and FF VII.
Actually, my mistake, Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 can be added to that list of games I've achieved 100% in.
See, I feel that if a developer wants to create a game that people WANT to complete 100%, then they should meet a certain number of requirements, including excellent story with a lot of depth, evolving characters with personalities and excellent voice work accompanied, tight controls to give the player the sense that they are in full control, and finally, a decent completion time period, say 20 - 30 hours, that feels long enough to play over many weeks without being too long that it's boring.
Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto, Gran Turismo and the old Final Fantasies fit that bill perfectly. With great age comes great wisdom, and with great wisdom comes great knowledge in a specific field, eg video games, and with that knowledge comes an excellent collection of video games that many would envy for many years to come.
Be proud elder members of PSXextreme, for you are the wise and longest veterans of gaming.
3 up, 1 down
maxpontiac
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 8:21:57 AM
I am 37, and while my hardcore gaming mentality has declined as a whole in the last year, my GT hardcore is still at the same level it was in GT2.
Based on my own personal experience and observation of others, I believe the older you get, certain things that require extra energy just don't matter anymore, and that doesn't apply just to games.
1 up, 1 down
shadowscorpio
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:04:58 PM
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@ TheHighlander
That's a good point you make. When considering my love for gaming, I can actually see myself devoting a lot of my time to gaming in later years. Hmmm..
1 up, 1 down
Shams
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:35:25 AM
0 up, 1 down
Shams
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:05:10 PM
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But, say hypothetically one only keeps and plays a few games all year long...He/she's make the most out of them, even if they don't got a lot of time each day to play.
So, don't worry Ben. You're not getting old, yet. And happy Thanksgiving to all here.
Last edited by Shams on 11/25/2010 11:06:01 PM
1 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:40:35 PM
Still...it can be difficult to find time to play what I want to play during the busy months, and dedicating myself to any one title seems almost like a waste of time. Too many games I want to play (usually).
1 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:09:19 PM
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But to answer the headline, yeah I think you get less out of doing everything as you age and instead would rather move onto the next experience. Getting a trophy or a Gold medal or whatever might make the experience last longer, but it won't change it much.
3 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:43:35 PM
Sometimes, though, I find myself almost wanting to go BACK to my exclusionary phase, as stupid as that sounds. Maybe at heart, I really am just a huge RPG fan...I was never quite so fulfilled with my gaming than I was during the PS1 era.
Of course, things have changed and I admit to having many different great memories in the past five years or so.
4 up, 1 down
crokett
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:09:39 PM
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1 up, 1 down
Jawknee
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:21:59 PM
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0 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:29:27 PM
2 up, 1 down
Temjin001
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:54:13 AM
0 up, 1 down
Highlander
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:13:06 AM
2 up, 1 down
Gordo
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:25:17 PM
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Getting plats in any game is definately a pipe dream for me. Also even playing games on hard or even sometimes normal is beyond my gaming time.
Easy is sometimes best as you can relax, play the game, see the story and not get irritated or annoyed at all the restarting.
I bought Oblivion GOTY edition and never even played it. Everytime I look at the box I see 100 hours that I dont have!
Gaming Time is precious so quality is becoming more valuable than quantity.
GT5 however. I'm going to take my sweet sweet time and just play for an hour here and there.
0 up, 1 down
Snaaaake
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:33:15 PM
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So I thought when I get old and go into retirement, I'll game to death, of course not neglecting family at the same time.
So I once sworn to game till the day my body won't allow me to.
It's funny though, you rarely see elderly people gaming and in 30 to 50 years time, we'll be those elderly people gaming.
0 up, 1 down
Borderline
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:35:07 PM
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1 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:44:09 PM
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1 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:49:42 AM
0 up, 1 down
Underdog15
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 9:03:20 AM
You know what it takes to make kids? Well, there's a lot of that happening in her pursuit to get knocked up. Don't know if I actually want kids though. That's pro-creation at it's finest, right there.
0 up, 1 down
Highlander
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 10:41:34 AM
Still I do think that married or otherwise, as we go through our lives priorities and commitments change. Before I was married, I gamed much more regularly, but I also know that before I was married, the amount of gaming I did was declining as work and other concerns took priority over more time.
I think that as we age and become more experienced in live and in games we become a little jaded to the point where we no longer have as much patience for certain things in games. For example, I do not have the patience for the guild level grinding in White Knight Chronicles. It's a chore to me, and I'm not gaming to do a chore.
I'm 100% certain I will not get platinum on GT5. I may spend hundred of hours with it, but not to get the Platinum. I know that to get that level of achievement I will have to re-do certain events frequently enough for them to feel like a chore. As much as I enjoy GT5, I'm just not willing to let my playing it become a chore, so I'll spend my time customizing my cars, tuning my cars and playing races/racing online.
This is I think where being older steps in and prevents us from being completists. I'm not sure why but many games have resorted to rather tedious, chore-like tasks that must be done repeatedly in order to achieve platinum and collect all the collectibles. I sometimes wonder if it's a way of cheaply extending the 'life' of a title. Perhaps it is. Whatever the reason, if it makes the game less fun and more chore, then I will look elsewhere. As I have aged, I think that my tendency to value the time I spend gaming more highly has lowered the chore threshold. I simply won't complete a game, if completing it feels like a chore instead of play.
2 up, 1 down
Alienange
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:45:53 PM
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On the other hand, will I grind away in Monster Hunter so I can get that next weapon or armor set? Yup. So what's the difference? For me it's the game.
That, and I can afford more games now. Will you waste time being all OCD over a a game when you've got another dozen sitting, waiting for their time to shine?
2 up, 1 down
PasteNuggs
Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 11:53:31 PM
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0 up, 1 down
AcHiLLiA
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:00:09 AM
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I find that I do much better in gaming when I get pumped up. Damn, on rusty days I feel that I lost my good reflexes. And for the rest it get's diffcult as we age.
Last edited by AcHiLLiA on 11/26/2010 12:08:47 AM
2 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:53:16 AM
3 up, 1 down
Geobaldi
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:07:11 AM
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3 up, 1 down
DazeOfWar
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:09:52 AM
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I really think a lot of my not caring about 100% things was ruined by my achievement whoring. That is one reason I like playing the PS3 because the trophies are cool but they don't have a score attached to them. I don't get that need to get them all.
2 up, 1 down
BikerSaint
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:17:54 AM
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But, now at turning 58, I'm starting to think that life is getting a wee little shorter every year, so now I rush around doing every damned thing else I have to do, just so that I can enjoy hours & hours of quality gaming time.
And occasionally, I also set aside a full day or two to do one of my now patented 24 to 36 hour marathon, where the only time I step away from the game, is for either a quick bathroom or food break.
The only drawback about doing gaming marathon at my age now, is that I usually feel like a Resident Evil flesh-eater afterwards.
OK, now I only do the SP modes, and with some games, I'll just play out it's story mode & then not finish all the extra's or side quests if they get too frustrating(a few of FarCry2's diamonds). Then I'll just stick that game on the shelf along side the other 1700+ games in my library.
But then there are those other games that I really wind up enjoying so much, I actually WANT to keep going all those extra miles, so I'll spend countless hours & hours just trying to do, or get every last little thing I can(got all 350 inFamous shards).
And lately, in GTA-4 alone, I'm only at 75% of the story mode done, but I've already spent well over 139plus hours into it so far(a 29 hour marathon 3 days ago), trying to pick up all the motorcycle stunt jumps, stealing cop car so I can take down bad guys, killing all the flying rats, & speed dating the ladies, etc, etc, all before I finally finish up my last 25% of the story mode.
And If I can't manage to get the whole 100% completion of everything there to do in a game, since I'm not a trophy whore, I'm still able to go away happy with whatever I WAS able to get.
And I had a great time doing it.
Last edited by BikerSaint on 11/26/2010 12:29:44 AM
2 up, 1 down
Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:34:28 AM
But the most amount of time I can put into a game at once is maybe 3 hours at a stretch. THAT, I will have to blame on the day job. I used to be able to play FFT for 8 hours a day without blinking an eye. ;)
2 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:58:36 AM
0 up, 1 down
Temjin001
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:43:09 AM
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I am absolutely never bored.
But more to the topic. I'm not really a completionist. Rarely have I ever done everything in a game. I've always been so compelled by every new and hot game on the market that I tend to struggle trying to stay on top of what's current. So for me the rate of completing a game is usually one game every 7-14 days, or so. That's approximately 24 games a year.
Last edited by Temjin001 on 11/26/2010 12:43:44 AM
1 up, 1 down
Koolasuchus
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:14:05 AM
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If I look back on about 13 years personal gaming-history now I can say that life always changing and that's nothing new to us, isn't it. I love my PS3 and I'm quite addicted when it comes to new games - for Red Dead Redemption (Undead Nightmare inclusive) and Mafia 2 I spent some nights gaming instead of this overrated sleep.
As much as I love games, just a few get this luxurious 100% completion treatment. As you, Ben, the few games I beat to the bitter end were all the GTA-titles (I'm still hunting down these flying rats all over Liberty City without a strategy-guide). My philosophy always was the playing-experience and I spend more time exploring and enjoy the open world (feeling) instead of trophy hunting and stuff.
But as many of you wrote down, coming in age means you got quite different stuff to do and focusing on differnet parts of life - so am I, playing less but still enjoy playing, still getting addictive for some time/nights. For me there are some "real-life-trophies" to earn which means more to me than a stunning PSN-profile which outruns other players.
Last edited by Koolasuchus on 11/26/2010 1:19:12 AM
1 up, 1 down
___________
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:35:53 AM
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took forever!
i use to only play one game at a time because i could not play another game till the one i started was 100% complete!
now i really dont have the interest to do that, like i really, REALLY wanted to get the plat for enslaved, the only trophy keeping me from doing that is collecting all the tech orbs which im missing 3.
it would probably take me maybe a hour max to find them, not exactly hard work but i still cant be bothered.
if i was still how i use to be i would of missed out on , falout,vanquish, GT5, POP collection, sly cooper collection, splatterhouse ect ect because id still be finishing enslaved or CLOS which i was only 8 hours in.
really want to finish that, had such a good story and the combat is probably the best combat system ive seen since the original GOW!
shame theres so many games prying me away from it, oh i wish konami made it on the PSP so i could finish it on my holiday!
0 up, 1 down
WorldEndsWithMe
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:54:55 AM
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1 up, 1 down
bentl78
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 3:22:50 AM
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Well, i mean i do want to get platinums though.. and i love the sound of the bling.. when the trophy pops.. but it just seems like a waste of time sometimes. I have so many backlogged games i havent even touch sitting on my table waiting for me to play There r way too many good games lately.. just like recently i finished mafia 2. collecting 100 something wanted posters (@#)*@()$*@()*.. lol.. was just a bit too time consuming. i am thinking about giving up.. i did platinum assassin's creed 2.. and found all the feathers, and FFXIII and killed like 1000 turtles..played resident evil 5 until 100%.. but i guess having the rocket launcher on professional was one of hte only reason i was able to do it.. but i felt very bored while i was looking for feather or killing the 800th turtle, but felt major feeling of YEAH I DID IT.. when the plat finally popped.
Ben is right.. RPGs are easier to get into that.. completionist mode.. i feel the same. i rarely wish to plat an action game. but FFXIII, Dragon Age, and Fallout 3 are 3 of my 6 plats
1 up, 1 down
Ludicrous_Liam
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 3:51:50 AM
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Haha, I feel sorry for you all. I'm young and I can game until the early hours of the morning. Only school, friends & keeping fit stop me from gaming.
I don't get a whole lota games, usually 5 a year, so I get time to complete them all. And really, I think thats where the problem lies.
For example, my friend who I've known 2 years, let me on his account & he had 400+ GAMES, DLC Etc(Sorry if this against the rules...I did it before I signed up if that helps :P). I just can't play a single one for more than an hour, because I'll have sam&max to play, or burnout paradise (I'm addicted to guns & rose's now :D).
But then again, my dad, in his fifties, loves COD, but plays it maybe 3 times a week. Maybe it's because you feel somehow....childish playing games at that age? Who knows.
Looking forward to your GT review, I hope you look at it in a different light compared to other critics..you know..the ones with a certain amount of IGNorance..xd
(Off-topic) Destructoid gave GT5 a great big fat 10 outa 10. WHAT IS THIS MADNESS!?
Edit: PS3 controller >_<
Last edited by Ludicrous_Liam on 11/26/2010 3:55:47 AM
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Clamedeus
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:15:22 AM
By the way you don't have to be a teen to play games Dads, Mom's, Grandpa, Grandma anyone at any age can play a game it is a hobby for anyone and everyone after all.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 11/26/2010 4:15:52 AM
2 up, 1 down
Ludicrous_Liam
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:20:52 AM
0 up, 1 down
Clamedeus
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:38:37 AM
But yeah it is difficult as you get older for some.
Edit: In my other post i was talking about your dad playing a video game, but i misunderstood what you meant by it.
Last edited by Clamedeus on 11/26/2010 4:40:35 AM
1 up, 1 down
D1g1tal5torm
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:57:25 AM
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0 up, 1 down
Sir Dan
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 7:05:30 AM
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2 up, 1 down
Norrin Radd
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 8:11:36 AM
Still, I wasn't playng a lot like I used to - until a couple months ago when I finally picked up a PS3. If you think having Netflix streaming didn't help convince the wife, think again! InI any event, I love this machine! I picked up the LEGO Harry Potter and NHL 11 to start. I also got some shooters - Resistance is pretty cool. Looking forward to playing 2 & 3. BUT, the game taking all my time recently? Uncharted. I get to play for about an hour at a time usually, not at all like before, but when I do, that Uncharted game is worth every second I put into it! And yeah, I'm playing on Easy so I can just really enjoy the story. When I'm done, I'll play number 2 on Easy and then replay both on hard afterwards and hope that 3 will come next Fall.
I guess the point is - although life can take away your time for games, I think its more of an ebb and flow than definitive periods. I suspect that as my kids get older and more involved in school activities, the time will change again, but maybe they will become even more independent at home at the same time. Who knows?
All I know is that Uncharted has reinvigorated me into gaming and gives me hope for the future of gaming - I'm happy I'm finding time to play it now!
Last edited by Norrin Radd on 11/26/2010 8:15:05 AM
4 up, 1 down
Sir Dan
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 9:38:50 AM
Yeah I get about an hour a night to put into a game and that hour is usually when I'm my most exhausted from work and kids. I've actually taken to getting up at 6AM on saturday's and sunday's recently. I can get 20 hrs that way. LOL. Pathetic, I'm sure all the youngins out there reading this.
I find myself saving at every opportunity too, You never know when your gaming is cut short by a crying kid or just the fact you have to stop because you're playing God of War and a three year old shows up behind you and you're ripping Helios's head off. LOL.
2 up, 1 down
Aerifale
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 7:18:58 AM
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0 up, 2 down
RX78Zero
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 7:49:09 AM
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For me, its the types of games that they are releasing now. The mainstream stuff and other material just don't immerse me like they use to. I need to take more time away from gaming for a bit. It feels as though if i can't enjoy the games that others have made, i might as well make one myself(just a fantasy).
1 up, 1 down
HighOnFire
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 8:28:00 AM
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1 up, 1 down
Snaaaake
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 9:18:52 AM
2 up, 1 down
gumbi
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 8:33:08 AM
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That's an observation based solely on my own experience. I'm knocking on 30's doorstep now and between work, house, wife, and kids I just don't have much time for games anymore. The love is still there, and I still want to annihilate every game I play but I just don't have the time. I've also become very picky about the games I actually buy and play because it's a much bigger commitment now than it was 6 or 7 years ago when I had plenty of time and fewer responsibilities. Once upon a time I could log 100 hours into a game in a few weeks. it would take me 6 months to do that now. My tastes have changed a little too, but that's also a time related issue. My game time doesn't usually start until much later in the evening, and often times I just don't have the energy by then to engross myself in a fast paced stressful reflex-fest. I want something relaxing and fulfilling to wind down my already stressful and busy day.
So in our defense Ben, I don't think we're getting old, we just have a lot more on our plates these days.
0 up, 1 down
Gone
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 9:55:28 AM
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4 up, 1 down
Highlander
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:19:58 PM
...sorry...couldn't resist...
4 up, 1 down
Sir Dan
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:22:42 PM
2 up, 1 down
BikerSaint
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 3:36:54 PM
....which has put my house into a perpetual "DEFCON 1" alert.
2 up, 1 down
Nick Maim
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 11:20:25 AM
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I also play old franchises like Battlefields, GTs and Halos, but sprinkle with ingenious new ones, like Heavy Rain, Mirrors Edge, Deadspace..etc
2 up, 1 down
swapnilgyani
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 11:47:16 AM
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I want to play through a game that has a fascinating story, good characters, and of course, has great gameplay. But guess what? I genuinely believe that if a particular game has just the kind of mix that appeals to me, I actually DO go back to being a 100% completionist.
I never went around looking for feathers in Assassin's Creed II, or birds in GTA4, or treasures in Uncharted 2 (and those 3 are amongst the best games I have ever played). But I searched every nook and corner of Arkham and solved 100% of Riddler's puzzles - each one of them was unique, and that really piqued my curiosity.
Similarly, I platinum'd Heavy Rain, not because I wanted a 100% stat, but because everytime you played it differently, something unique happened.
The latest game to take me back to that completionist mode is Gran Turismo 5. Silver won't do, I NEED a gold in every event, be it racing, karting or license tests. And it feels amazing :)
1 up, 1 down
Scarecrow
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 12:29:49 PM
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Been too busy playing GT5. Expect fewer comments from me.
1 up, 1 down
DemonNeno
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 1:17:24 PM
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Now I'm onto GT5. I've walked away from red dead, cod, joe danger, crazy taxi, and god knows what else. all of which haven't been completed to the end. I just... Lost interest. Not because any of them were bad as a game, but I personally can't get myself to invest much more time into them.
Then again, maybe it's because I'm a no-nonsense car guy. I'm not sure how old you are, Ben, but I'm 28 and it's very clear that my gaming expectations and ambitions have changed a lot compared to ten years ago...
2 up, 1 down
Kokushi
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 2:54:26 PM
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Now on topic, i have the completionist mentality for the games i love (Uncharted 1 was my first platinum and GTA 4 got 100% in the single player) or the games that i want to play that i expect them to complet them for 100% (God of War 3, RDR, Dead Space, etc..).
But for some games that i want to play that i will rent like Medal of Honor i dont care to get the platinum, but really some stuff in life can get in the way to completing a game 100%, but i hope when i get older to keep playing at the same rate that i play now.
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Fane1024
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 4:01:54 PM
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I have 0 platinum trophies and will likely never get one, since there's almost always at least one trophy that requires heavy grinding or playing on Crushing-level difficulties.
Though I'm generally a completionist, I don't have the desire to complete a goal if I'm not having FUN. Also, why grind when there's dozens of (mostly) unplayed games on the shelf?
I think the last game on which I got 100% was R&C FToD...and it didn't have trophies. :P
p.s. A while back one of my Friends sent me a PSN message needling me about a "lack of commitment" because I had only 85% of the Flower trophies; I still haven't got the others. :D
Last edited by Fane1024 on 11/26/2010 4:05:26 PM
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AnonWTF
Friday, November 26, 2010 @ 7:26:13 PM
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But a weird thing is. As much as I love and play video games. I never ever throughout my life have this urge to like beat games at 100% or even finish them and I can play multiple games at the same time.
One of my co-workers were telling me he had to finish one game before he went on to the next.
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Nynja
Monday, November 29, 2010 @ 8:35:28 AM
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I'll post my views once I have had a chance to gather them.
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SirLoin of Beef
Monday, November 29, 2010 @ 1:07:48 PM
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Highlander
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Thursday, November 25, 2010 @ 10:31:33 PM