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Miyamoto: Modern Action Games Are Just Too Challenging

Although this is more on the Nintendo side of news, the comments in question are relevant for all gamers.

Action games can be overly demanding. Some of the notoriously difficult titles include the Ninja Gaiden games, certain entries in the Devil May Cry franchise, and this year's Bayonetta; all of which will tax most players to the max. But Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto told the New Yorker (via the Official Nintendo Magazine) that such challenges don't necessarily translate to "fun."

"A lot of the so-called 'action games' are not made that way. All the time, players are forced to do their utmost. If they are challenged to the limit, is it really fun for them?"

Miyamoto would rather provide the player with a variety of different things; diverse forms of simpler entertainment, even if it means repetition.

"You are constantly providing the players with a new challenge, but at the same time providing them with some stages or some occasions where they can simply, repeatedly, do something again and again. And that itself can be a joy.

It's about enjoying something. I used to draw cartoons. I'd just show them to some of my friends, expecting that they were going to appreciate them, that they were going to enjoy reading them. And I haven't changed a bit about that. When I'm making video games today, I want people to be entertained. I am always thinking, How are people going to enjoy playing the games we are making today? And as long as I can enjoy something other people can enjoy it, too."

What do you say? Personally, I agree and disagree. I used to get great satisfaction from beating a game like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry 3 but even then, it felt like too much of a chore. These days, I shy away from the overly difficult because as Miyamoto said, it's not exactly fun for everyone.

But at the same time, I think most all long-time gamers have noticed that games have gotten shorter and easier over time. They've been forced to adapt to an ever-growing mainstream crowd that wants to be able to finish the adventure; they're not interested in killing themselves like we used to do at the arcades. I do like the fact that I can finish most any game I buy, but I don't like this ongoing Nintendo implication that games have to appeal to everyone in the entire family to be "good."

Haven't bought the 100% kiddie mentality for some time, guys. A video game doesn't have to be too hard, true, but it also doesn't necessarily have to look like one of those cartoons you always drew, Miyamoto.

Tags: video games, games industry, action games, miyamoto

12/14/2010 9:58:02 AM Ben Dutka

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Comments (87 posts)

Kall555
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:20:58 AM
Reply

I disagree. What is the point of playing a game when there is no sense of challenge or sense of self achievement to be had? That is what makes titles such as Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 & Demons Souls so rewarding. The sense of relief & accomplishment from overcoming a boss makes you feel like you've really earned it. Most of these games have easier difficulty settings anyway so its a moot point. Nintendo do realise people enjoy challenges sometimes instead of trading Pokemon cards or jumping on plants heads with obese overall wearing plumbers.

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Axe99
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:04:56 PM

I think part of the issue is the degree of challenge - I found Demon's Souls and Ninja Gaiden tedious because of their design - Ninja Gaiden because it was so hard, and DS because it was so punishing. Both failed because they assumed a fixed state of ability of every gamer to take on a challenge, which is the same as assuming every car driver can handle taking a Viper around Laguna Seca at racing speeds. Which is silly.

On the other hand, too easy is not fun either. What most great games have these days is the ability to change your difficulty setting mid-way. I like to start on one notch above normal (which is normally a solid but not tedious challenge for me), and then work it up/down as required. But it's important that we all understand as gamers that one person's challenge is another persons tedious chore, and that people like different levels of challenge (and often like different levels of challenge at different times).

I think Ben's take is the most appropriate - respect the fact that different people enjoy different things (including challenging/punishing games). I have no issues with games like Demon's Souls or Ninja Gaiden being made, and think they should be as long as there's an audience for them, and think Miyamoto is being a bit closed-minded by suggesting everything should be for everybody.

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spiderboi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:33:58 PM

there is logic to his statement. Why else would Angry Bird and Bejeweled be so overplayed these days? Heck, my aunt who's about 60+ and I not tech-savy got an iPAD and now can't stop from playing Plants vs Zombies...

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Akuma07
Wednesday, December 15, 2010 @ 3:11:15 AM

He is just lazy!

Making excuses, action games arent fun anymore. Umm name some other genres that are? JRPGs havnt been fun for a long time....

Like Hideo said, Jap developers are losing their touch and their determination.

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Temjin001
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:32:20 AM
Reply

Oh man, he's cracked open a big can 'o worms. I understand what he's saying, but it's from a certain point of view. A point of view that assumes a one-size-fits-all solution for game design. The reality is people are motivated to play games for different purposes. Granted, their may be larger more casual audiences who prefer games to be easier and less dynamic in nature. But for me those games are less interesting. So bring on NG3!! ...and leave Miyamato's thoughts out of it ;)

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Snorge
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:35:14 AM
Reply

I have to say I prefer a little bit of the easy (Mostly relaxing games) and alot of the hard. I like a challenge, and I agree with Ben saying the old school gamers are use to harder games, no save points, and limited lives. Now its recharging health, resurrection on the spot, unlimited continues, and easier difficulty levels. Come on!

Here's an idea, if ya cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! Action games SHOULD be challenging, just like the movies. Would anyone want to see want to see an action movie where the hero jumps on all the bad guys heads and they poof into smoke and dissappeared and thats it? Not this guy, give the damn guy a challenge and make the goal that much more rewarding when acheived.

Last edited by Snorge on 12/14/2010 10:37:46 AM

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bxshotboi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:38:24 AM
Reply

He makes sense but to a certain extent. yes sumtimes the most demanding games become frustrating becuz I know that for myself and many others that getting te pure blade stone in demon souls by yourself took forever and at one point I turned off the system to calm my nerves a bit but once I got it I was sooooo dam happy to have done so.. Sumtimes the overall sense of determination and accomplishment is all u need to enjoy a game!!!! And yes there are many simple games with a sickening use of repetition that are fun regardless such as assassins creed. In the end it comes down to what the gamer wants at the moment not what a developer thinks and believes is the best way to have fun

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Underdog15
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:43:10 AM
Reply

lol no, I don't want them easier. And games are not more difficult now than they were in the NES era.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1? Uber difficult. Original Zelda games? Challenging. Freaking Metroid? Holy crap! Double Dragon.... also hard.

Action games have always had a couple easy and a couple hard. To me, this is just a really strange concept. Games are different, yes, but they are not more difficult than they used to be. If they are, then it's due to control issues.

EDIT: Also, at least nowadays, you can save your progress! Back in the day, game over was game over, man! A game that had a password to get back to a certain level was a blessing! And it almost never reset the number of lives you have left.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 12/14/2010 10:45:46 AM

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:21:08 AM

Not easier, but at least to the point where they can be mastered. When i read the article, it seemed more like he was railing against cheap AI that cheats to beat the player. If the game uses smarter AI, I can still learn the AI's own tactics and tendencies and use that knowledge to master it. But if the AI cheats, I will never master it, and it will always feel cheap because I know it cheats.

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Temjin001
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:17:06 PM

Yes, Underdog, good point. There were some brutally hard games back in the NES/SNES era. Maybe Miyamato is just an old timer now and can't hack it these days =p

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Kall555
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:44:52 AM
Reply

The thing is, you get games that are too easy & when people finish them they complain that the experience is too short. You get given a challenge however to expand the experience and you get bs like "It's too challenging"

It's good to have fun games too just to chill out & put a halt to venting but taking the challenge away completely ruins the whole idea of gaming as a whole imo. I enjoyed Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 because it WAS hard, even when you did complete it and unlocked all the weapons etc.



Last edited by Kall555 on 12/14/2010 10:45:27 AM

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Cuetes
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:44:58 AM
Reply

I can't say I agree with him. IMO I think games have gotten too easy. I play ever thing on veteran settings and have still managed to pass every game in my collection, sometimes in a few nights and in some rare cases a few hours (looking at you, COD). That being said, isn't this reason they make difficulty settings?

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maxpontiac
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:46:39 AM
Reply

Personally speaking, I am at the age in which frustration due to video games is something I do not want to visit any longer.

Yes, Gran Turismo's Gold trophies are very frustrating at times, but I let that pass due to my love for the genre.

I have always believed in selectable difficulties so the game can cater to the user. It's nice to provide an option for the consumer base.

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alcrowley
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:09:24 AM

But there is a difference between the games difficulty and trophies difficulty.

There are games that are easy but the trophies are insanely difficult or just too burdensome.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:24:27 AM

Getting the golds in all the GT5 licenses is an exercise in frustration, but the game is at least consistent, and can be mastered.

But as alcrowley points out, there are trophies that are overly burdensome, or just stupidly difficult. I see these as two different things. In GT5 the licenses are intended to be mastered, they are difficult, but do not really rely on luck, they simply demand skill and concentration. But then look at a game like White Knight Chronicles, to platinum in that requires an insane amount of time spent grinding away online.

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maxpontiac
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:25:57 AM

I understand, but in my book, the PSN trophies and the ones found in GT5 are a different monster.

A Gold trophy for lets say a license test in GT5 can get frustrating at times. Perhaps I should have clarified. My apologies.

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DemonNeno
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 4:22:53 PM

Gt5 has beaten me senseless when it comes to golds. I've just settled with quite a few silvers because I simply want to explore the game while becoming better, not pinning myself to one event for however long it takes.

The difference is this. Games are easier today than a few console generations back. there were games that didn't even do a good job at hinting you to get this or that. Castlevania... I think it was 2? Where you'd duck by water, travel across mountains, etc. that was a hard frickin game! Not to mention darkness meant your enemies were twice as dangerous and less prone to damage. Is it any wonder why games back then were loaded with cheats?

Today is different. I'd say it's easier. Frustrating? Of course! But easier.

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bxshotboi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:49:16 AM
Reply

I think the feeling of how difficult a game is depends on the gamer themselves because there are old school gamers that can't get through newer games for nothin in the world and than we have gamers from the modern times that can't pass the genesis collection

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Snorge
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:56:02 AM

Aint that some sh*t too?

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Kiryu
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:54:53 AM
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It's because of the challenge that i come back the game.Shadow of the colossus,Uncharted series,Metal Gear Solid,God of War,Yakuza Series.These games are so challenging and also the story drives me back that is why i come back.

Last edited by Kiryu on 12/14/2010 10:55:04 AM

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556pineapple
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:55:37 AM
Reply

I think it's true, but it doesn't necessarily have to do with modern games. I think it's always been true to a certain extent but it just doesn't apply to every game. There were more than a fair share of nearly-impossible NES games back in the day, most of which were much harder than modern games at their toughest.

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Hezzron
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:00:13 AM
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I'm a firm believer in being able to finish a game I payed for. Gamers will always have different skill levels, and that's what different in-game difficulties should be for.

Some games on their hardest difficulty settings are still fun, giving you that feeling that you can still do it with one more try. The Uncharted's and Ratchet & Clanks do this well. Other games, like the ones mentioned, make you wonder if they ever got play tested on hard. They seem to be plagued with un-fun, want-to-break-your-controller inducing jams.

I've come to know there's a difference between "hard" and "broken".

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:41:46 AM

Indeed, there is a difference between AI that cheats and AI that is simply smart. I hate those games with cheating AI that feel broken, precisely because I know that it's cheating and that I won't beat it through skill or understanding it's tactics. I've platinum'd bot Uncharted games and despite the difficulty level of crushing, it is possible to beat it with skill, not blind luck. There was one specific area in Drake's Fortune that was almost broken. It was possible to beat it, but extremely difficult, and felt a bit broken, but ultimately it's possible to beat it.

But on the other hand, I have played games that felt broken, and in the end I have given up on 'beating' these games because of it.

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ZettaiSeigi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:21:06 PM

Which part of that game was it, Highlander? I'm curious as I just finished playing the first Uncharted game again.

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Alienange
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:51:44 PM

Just run for the open door, it's not that hard.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:56:40 PM

The part of Drakes Fortune that's difficult on Crushing is the flooded room where there are several set's of bad guys that drop in on a set schedule. You can take them down, but it's a real pain.

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Jawknee
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:08:35 PM

Yes Highlander, that part was cause of frustration for me. :) very annoying on Crushing.

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kraygen
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:54:49 PM

I refer to this dilemma as the video game AI lottery. Basically no matter how good you are, sometimes you can't beat that particular moment in a game until the program lets you.

It's blatantly obvious too, you try 30-40 times to beat this one particular part of a game and never come close, finally out of no where you beat it as if it was level 1 set on very easy.

Some games just have their difficulty controlled that way and it sucks, because it's hard to not get frustrated over the fact that the game won't let you win because on this particular difficulty the AI is set to lose only a tiny percentage of the time.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 2:06:03 PM

Kraygen,

Often the AI isn't set to lose at all, it is just cheap, cheating and crap. there might be a random element to how hard the AI plays you so on a rare chance you might get a suddenly dumb and beatable AI, but it's not generally set to lose. I'm not sure how many devs even would think to put something into their AI logic to allow the player to win eventually, especially for the equivalent of the 'crushing' difficulty level.

Last edited by Highlander on 12/14/2010 2:07:07 PM

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coverton341
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:01:33 AM
Reply

Quite the opposite actually, Miyamoto. I think that most games now are a bit too easy. At least to complete. With variable difficulty settings comes...well, variable difficulty. But, when it comes down to it games are just about learning the pattern and programming logic. Has been since the early days, it's just now more complex logic.

What I absolutely don't want to see is the industry decide to take this attitude to the bank and start dumbing down games to suit the needs of the rising casual market.

Can anyone imagine a Ninja Gaiden you can 100% on the highest difficulty in the span of a Sunday afternoon? No thanks.

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StubbornScorpio
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:58:18 PM

Your last comment sends chills down my spine...

And not in a good way.

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Snorge
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:01:36 AM
Reply

I LOVED God of War 3. I completed the challenge of Olympus...Some of the most frustrating sh*t I've done in recent history....BUT....Although it took quite a few tries, I enjoyed the frustration in a strange way...Its the feeling of beating something you worked so hard on!

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alcrowley
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:01:41 AM
Reply

I agree with Ben, they are just catering for their customers, unfortunately they are not gamers, or just very young gamers.

I liked the 'Challenges' in the GoW series. I felt proud and great satisfaction after completing it because it was (IMO) very challenging.

But then again, I remember being young and feeling frustrated with the difficulty of a game then I'd cheat, cause I just liked to play a game for fun and look at the pretty screens (at the time).

But today I like challenging games, most of the games I set the difficult to high or hard because it demands mastering the gameplay.

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Scarecrow
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:05:01 AM
Reply

Agree and disagree. There are some games which are insanely hard for no reason "Oddworld" games for example.

It would have been a much more successful game and enjoyable game at that if it wasn't notoriously hard.

What makes Nintendo's games fun, specially Miyamoto's is the exeperience.

Miyamoto's games are kinda like rpgs but in different genres. You get to experience so many things in just one game. Let's take Mario Galaxy for example, you get to do so many different things in that game and visit so many different places with so many different puzzles and strategies that it all comes together. It's like what Jaffe said 'bout GOW, the battle system doesn't need to be overly complicated if it's fun and at the end of the day mixes well together with everything the game has to offer.

But I also love challenging games like Demon's Souls. Though the challenge in this game is rewarding.

I think it really depends on how rewarding/not rewarding these hard games are. There are some that are just hard for no reason, you get through it and you feel like you were forced through it all for nothing.

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alcrowley
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:14:24 AM

I agree with you. The GoW are a perfect example. Because I had to deal with frustration, some parts were tough, but I kept playing because I was being rewarded after.

The point is, if its difficult then it must provide the players the sense of accomplishment and not being difficult just to be...

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:30:09 AM

A game that is difficult must still allow the player to master it if they become skilled enough in the game itself. If the ability to beat a game relies solely on repetition and blind luck, it's not challenging, it's just annoying.

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Scarecrow
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:31:38 PM

@alcrowley,
Yup, I also like the fact that GOW has so many difficulty levels, it lets you get better at it by giving you harder modes.

@Highlander,
Exactly!

That's the real difference right there, being able to get better at the game instead of the game just being plain broken (impossible to get better at). Thus blind luck...

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BikerSaint
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:15:52 AM
Reply

As a 58 year old gamer, I think Miyamoto is a little bit more than just behind on the times.

I love how games these days are challenging us more & more & I myself, haven't encountered any real super hard challenges that I couldn't get past either sooner, or a bit later after sitting the game down for a spell.

(Disclaimer: I don't have Demon's Souls to change my mind yet though),LOL

Last edited by BikerSaint on 12/14/2010 11:16:46 AM

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alcrowley
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:25:30 AM

Yes. Although I only have a few games of this generation, I never came across a game that I wanted but couldn't finish.

But as someone already said in here, games are not becoming challenging just now. I remember in the NES and SNES days games that I though (at the time) being very challenging, like the Ninja Gaiden series, TMNT, Super Metroid, R-Type, etc...

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:26:01 AM

What about games that ramp up the difficulty by cheapening the AI to the point where it's cheating? In those the only way to beat the game is repetition and blind luck. That is extremely un-fun and frustrating. That's the kind of thing I felt he was talking about.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:19:11 AM
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I know where he's coming from, and there have been a few games that fall foul of what he's talking about. There are games that are just plain insane hard, there are games that start out quite accessible, but challenging, and get more difficult to the point where the AI becomes very cheap and effectively cheats.

NGS2 is - for example, ridiculously hard - and get's harder. Bayonetta and Vanquish can both be very difficult, though I've not played any of those three to that level of frustration. But then you also have games like Soul Calibur 4 which starts off very well, but gradually becomes impossible. It get's to the point where the game characters and AI are executing attacks and moves is timing and response time that are far from being human or reasonable. Playing a human is one thing, because a human player has certain reaction times and anticipates attacks based on patterns. But that human is still limited to the speed of human reactions. The game is not, and often times it shows. The AI in Soul Calibur 4 becomes very cheap as it uses hard to block moves in rapid succession, and adjusts to the player instantly.

To me this is the kind of thing that Shigeru Miyamoto is talking about. I used to play Doom (original Doom) on the maximum difficulty, and there was a certain grace in blasting through the first 8 levels. You could anticipate the attacks, and there was an optimal pattern to follow. It's nice to have the challenge of real people playing, because they don't follow such patterns. But at the same time it's nice to be able to play through the AI opponents and master them. But if that AI is cheap and is allowed to cheat, you can't master it.

No AI should be able to see though walls, or other visual obstacles, nor should it be able to sense your control inputs any faster than the best possible human. But often times it can. Making a game more difficult by allowing the AI to cheat this way leaves gamers feeling frustrated, and is lazy AI programming. Increasing difficulty by allowing the AI to use more complex tactics, and pattern detection to exploit the player's pattern is just fine, because it makes the AI smarter.

I feel like this is the kind of thing he's talking about. while many action games have gotten shorter because of the focus on multi-player online, many of the game's AI has also gotten cheaper because less time is spent on making a good AI opponent since the focus of the game is not single player, but multi-player online action.

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maxpontiac
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:27:38 AM

That is exactly why all games should come with this --

Very Easy
Easy
Medium
Hard
Very Hard

That way, everyone is happy.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:36:00 AM

Agreed, but even then, if the game has a very hard setting, that should still be beatable with skill. I have no problem with games that set a Platinum trophy that actually requires skill to obtain. But if the maximum difficulty of a game ramps up the difficulty by allowing the AI to effectively see through walls, then to me, that's no longer about skill.

It's like on the old Doom, you could play on all the normal difficulty levels and beat it. then they added Nightmare difficulty that sped up the monsters, and made them respawn. That level changed the game, and was increasingly impossible to beat. You could still 'beat' it, but you could no longer clear a level, essentially you escaped to each level, but the Boss battles were excruciatingly frustrating because of the respawning.

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BikerSaint
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:39:56 AM

Highlander,
Well, if miaymoto is thinking along your same line of thought(a few posts above), then I'd have to agree with both of you.

BTW, I'm only going by the games I've played so far, and I'm not into any of those games you mentioned above, so my thinking may or may not be a bit biased or skewed overall.

Last edited by BikerSaint on 12/14/2010 11:40:46 AM

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maxpontiac
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:31:25 PM

Highlander -

I agree with you on the faults that surround the AI on games. That's one of the reasons I don't mess with games on higher difficulties and games without a difficulty selector. Not worth the trouble to me.

I also believe that PSN Trophies should not be linked to difficulty levels either. In my opinion, the singleplayer games are getting shorter because of it.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, December 15, 2010 @ 9:26:24 AM

Well Highlander, I do agree about cheating AI's. Although, I still don't think it's much different than before. I can distinctly remember playing games at high difficulties, where if I got knocked down, the AI would not make it possible to get up.

However, with games like Black Ops, for example, the cheating AI on Veteran difficulty is just stupid. Dev's just make enemies like gods. If they were truly GOOD developers, they would do other things to add to the difficulty, like give you limited ammo (Black Ops campaign, you always start with like 600+ bullets lightly attached to your belt), add more enemies and more of a variety of enemies, give the enemy better tactics, or force you to be more resourceful. As is, they just have better aim and you die faster. That's it.

Really? That's the best you could do, Activision/Treyarch? Make the game longer by adjusting a small code or two then attach trophies to it?

Also, racing games have a tremendous amount of rebound, but that too isn't anything new at all. I distinctly remember Super Mario Kart having rediculous rebound on both SNES and N64.

Cheating AI, although sucky, is nothing new.

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BikerSaint
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 11:23:15 AM
Reply

More on Miyamoto....

Nintendo's Miyamoto Once Hoped To Destroy Genres He Created

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/nintendos-miyamoto-once-hoped-to-destroy-genres-he-created/

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Ludicrous_Liam
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:02:21 PM
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Am I the only one who plays 'normal' difficulty first? I do that then go on hard. I don't like getting fustrated on my first playthrus.

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ZettaiSeigi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:24:30 PM

You're not the only one as I do the same. I want to get a general feeling of the game. I mostly play story-driven action titles, so I want to know what happens in the story without getting frustrated about constantly dying.

Once I finished the game and feel that I've mastered it quite a bit, then that's the time to ramp up the difficulty and face the challenge.

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PasteNuggs
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:20:33 PM

Normal, Hah! It's always set on easy on the first playthrough for me.

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Bjorn77
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:08:12 PM
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Can have best of both worlds in my opinion... Just make multiple versions of 1 game. Not only more enemies in a certain room but also different puzzles or sections.

If you like it easy you get Uncharted the easy version and if you like a challenge you get the hard version.

This also increases the fun in re-playing a game on a harder level! It's more or less the same, but slightly different.

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Lawless SXE
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:30:27 PM
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I don't know. I suppose that a lot of games nowadays aren't fun, but that's more a personal thing, because I play them for the high that you get from beating them. Take GT5 for example. It's usually easy to get a Bronze trophy, but then you play the same track over and over again, learning the minutaie of both it and the AI racers until you can finally get the best line, improve your time by a marginal amount and get the Gold Trophy, you feel like you're rewarded for your skill.

I think that's what most games focus on, rather than giving the player an enjoyable experience up front, and to an extent, it is what I prefer. On the other hand, I often can't go past LBP, Ratchet and Clank, or Burnout just for the random things that you can do. There will always be a balance between the two types of games, so everyone should be satisfied.
Peace.

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ryu
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:49:32 PM
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he's so wrong... most of the games i find out there are just too easy i'm not interested at all
i'm literally biting my finger nails waiting for the next legit DMC and NG, bayo was a good refreshment too

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Alienange
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:55:02 PM
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He wants people to be entertained and he's been entertaining people for generations. I think perhaps he knows what he's talking about. Besides, who says those damn Mario games can't be just as controller breaking frustrating as a Ninja Gaiden game?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 2:32:58 PM

Because...they aren't?

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Riku994
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:07:14 PM

I gotta agree with Ben here...

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Temjin001
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:19:26 PM

There were/are some pretty frustratingly hard parts in Super Mario Galaxies. It sort of taxes you in a different way. Even games like NG don't have endless holes of death. Miss a pin needle jump and WAAaaaaaaaa! -1 Life

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dveisalive
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:56:55 PM
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I would agree with him. Ill give you Call of Duty Black Ops for example. I dare you to play the campaign and play on SOG (the part when you go down the hill in the campaign!) Tell me you can past that level without getting killed a billion times towards completion on Veteran lol. He has a point, while most of you say that have gotten easier, they surely stress you out even more O_O

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nilos95
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:01:45 PM

does the game force you to chose veteran difficulty or something. Saying that modern action games are difficult means that they are generally difficult, not setting wise.

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nilos95
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 12:59:42 PM
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Modern action games are hard.......triple facepalm! Most games are a piece of cake nowadays. Ninja Gaiden and Demon's Souls are scarce.

I guess he just makes this statement due to him being unable to make a legendary ACTION game. Though Igive him credit for his platformers and adventure games!

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NoMoreWar
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:00:08 PM
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just too boring more like it

Last edited by NoMoreWar on 12/14/2010 1:03:03 PM

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Jawknee
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:00:09 PM
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I kind of agree. When ever I pick up a Nintendo game its just pure fun. Some of the other games I play can cause frustration.

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dveisalive
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:03:04 PM
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Yeah i agree with you jawknee, thats why the Big N is the best first party always for there system etc.. lol Miyamoto is a legend.

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Snorge
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:29:21 PM

Nintendo WAS the best First Party company...I honestly think Sony is the top dawg now! What does Ninetndo have first party-wise (thats still going): Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Zelda? *Please feel free to add to the list
Sony: Uncharted, God of War, Gran Turismo, Twisted Metal, LittleBigPlanet? (I do include companies under the Sony name)

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Jawknee
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 2:11:13 PM

Snorge, Nintendo still has it in them. Their first party games this gen have been some of the best I have played in the last 5 years.

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Snorge
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 3:57:59 PM

Understood..But some of those same first party titles are absolute crap....Mario baseball???

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kraygen
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 1:57:34 PM
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I'm going to agree and disagree as well. Some days I crave that challenge, others I just want to relax.

I would like to say tho that I've been playing Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom. This game has great puzzles and makes you think without busting your balls. It's just fun to play, some of the dialogue is childish, but the rest of the game isn't and I've found it to be a great game. One of the 2 most fun games I've played this year.

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StubbornScorpio
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 2:02:06 PM
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I enjoy the challenge that certain games bring (Demon's Souls anyone?), but in the end the "fun factor" is never really lost for me. The only time it is lost is if the game actually is too easy.

I've played Super Mario Galaxy 2 and I gotta say the game is fun overall, but there are some levels that are absolutely grueling to the point where I gave up and had to go back to it at a later time. Miyamoto should speak for himself...

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GuyverLT
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 2:48:03 PM
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My taste for action games are weird if it isn't even remotely challenging then I'm not gonna bother with it, it has to have some level of difficulty to it, but that's just me anyways. My 1st console was the Super Nintendo & my 1st game was Donkey Kong but these days I no longer find the appeal of games like Donkey Kong & Mario. I heard that the Super Mario Galaxy games are good as well as the Zelda games(I never played Zelda) but the games that Nintendo has that appeals to me is
No More Heroes (which is coming to the PS3 next year), & Mad World (I would love to see that come the PS3 as well)those are the only ones I played on they're system and actually liked.

Last edited by GuyverLT on 12/14/2010 2:51:04 PM

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johnld
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 3:20:27 PM
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@Highlander
i agree with you that making a game challenging is fine but cheating AI makes the game broken. in addition to cheating AI, being in an impossible situation at the same time is definitely not challenging. i have come across a few games that was annoying.

gt5: although i dont have any significant problems with the game, i do find the last challenge for licenses irritating. i mean how can you put me in a race with 12 other cars in a small track, widthwise, and disqualify me for the slightest bump in a car that can easily go out of control. sure i cant graze other cars but they can send me to a wall.

WKC: no problem at all but trophy collection is too time consuming/grinding. plus a trophy for holding x amount of money at one time. finished the game.

COD W@W: everything else was fine other than their veteran mode. treyarch doesnt know how to make a challenging game without cheapening AI. seriously too accurate AI, endless spawns and grenade fragfest. finished the game.

COD Black Ops: the same complaints with W@W in addition to situational occurences. Theres a hill in vietnam where theres endless enemy spawns with near perfect aim coupled with taking less damage and dumb as nails ally AI that lets everyone through. i have to get down the hill but my character seems more worried about tripping than the bullets. he actually slows down in the middle of the gun fight. finished the game.

Vanquish: i've beaten the game with only the challenges left for platinum. the challenge mode is just insane. i was up against 5 big guys that can one shot kill you along with smaller guys who are everywhere and limited ammo.

UFC 2010: the most game breaking AI i have ever experienced that i quit playing. its in career mode, the AI is extremely amazing when performing their shine system for submissions. I managed to be undefeated until it was time to defend my championship belt. then i came upon an opponent that submits me in less than 30s of the first round while at full stamina. the game specifically tells you that using submissions really early in the game wont really be successful. it does this everytime i fight a rematch and my stats are pretty much maxed.

i never had any problems with ninja gaiden sigma 1 and 2, and demon souls aside from the initial adjustments to playing the game.

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Highlander
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 3:31:22 PM

Yeah, some of those GT5 license /challenge events are borderline frustrating. The way I look at it is that if that test is consistently passable by a skilled player with a good steering system, then it's OK. But if not, then it's just blind luck as to whether or not a specific run of the test is a pass - and that's just crap.

I don't mind being rewarded for developing skill at a game, or being persistent enough to finish a game. But when I'm just banging my head off a brick wall...no reward id worth it.

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Riku994
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 3:41:14 PM
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I like a good challenge. I'm currently playing through NGS2 and I haven't died once as Ryu. Hard mode will be a different story, I guarentee you.

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swapnilgyani
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 4:53:24 PM
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Well, right word here is "choice". As long as the games have multiple difficulty settings for the gamer to choose from,it shouldnt really be an issue.

To recount some of my most recent experiences, both Uncharted games and God of War III were just fine on their normal difficulty setting - just the ideal mix for me. But up the ante to the highest difficulty available, and its pretty damn hard.

I just finished my playthrough of Uncharted on crushing, and yes, it was super challenging. But that's the point of it, isn't it? If I wanted to experience Uncharted in a less challenging mode, I always have the choice of doing that!

Last edited by swapnilgyani on 12/14/2010 4:53:53 PM

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GuyverLT
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:30:29 PM

Exactly! You make a very good point most games have difficulty settings to give you the choice to whether or not you want to be challenge yourself or play it on easy as to just have fun with it. So real question is why is this even a topic of discussion.

Last edited by GuyverLT on 12/14/2010 7:30:52 PM

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AbsoluteZer0
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 4:54:13 PM
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Isn't this why we have difficulty settings?

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Snaaaake
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 6:01:49 PM
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Some games are while some aren't, Demon's Souls for example is just not fun at all. I'm one of those who tried to get into the game but couldn't.
Imo, I think GOWIII is very balanced, playing on Chaos mode made me focus on everything on the screen and I think that's good enough for a proper challenge. It ain't too frustrating as well.

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Jawknee
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 6:31:28 PM

I agree. I liked Demons Souls at first but I just couldn't get into it. It didn't feel rewarding enough for the amount of time and patients it required. So I sold it. :)

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Teddie9
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 6:20:59 PM
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I have to disagree entirely....also it's not necessarilly a genre that I feel Miyamoto should be criticizing.
I have to agree with Highlander it's satifying when the games difficulty is fair, but if it seems broken frustration takes over entirely. However I don't believe there's such a fine line. I wouldn't mind more games like NG or DMC...mind you the 4th one on devil hunter was very manageable.

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laxpro2001
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 6:44:04 PM
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First of all I disagree. Second of all, there are all different reasons why people play video games. There are different types/mixes of games that appeal to certain people's preferences and skill-sets which is why they choose to play these games.

These include playing a game for
-Challenge - Overcoming obstacles that seem impossible (kinda like Demons Souls)

-Competition - Being the best at something (Very common reason for COD purchases)

-Social Interaction - Play games socially with friends (Physical co-presence) or establish new friendships through the game as well as in the game through social presence. (Rockband and MMO's)

-Fantasy - experience something that you can't otherwise experience in real life (RPGs, Flight Simulator etc.)

- Distraction - helps improve your mood from something that is bothering you by preventing you from thinking about that problem.

-Relieve Boredom - Game is just fun

-Great Story - kinda goes along with fantasy and alleviating boredom

Everyone has their own reasons of playing. Some like exploring different categories with different games. To generalize all action games as being too hard is ignorant

Last edited by laxpro2001 on 12/14/2010 6:44:17 PM

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Geobaldi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:04:28 PM
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In my opinion, I agree most games have gotten easier and easier since the 80's and 90's. I agree with Ben that most games are beatable nowadays compared to older games. I can't really remember the last truly challenging game to frustrated me to no end. I take that back. Super Meat Boy. The game is pure punishment for any gamer willing to load it up. But it's well worth the effort and a great feeling of accomplishment to make progress in. You definitely earn it. But in all, there is no real challenge in games anymore. There is the illusion of challenge hidden behind those little things called trophies. If you play a game and not worry about them, then for the most part you can play through and finish most games. But if you're one of the people who just has to get every little trophy, then there is more challenge in that then the actual game itself. Take some of the old classics for example: Contra, Zelda II, Castlevania, F-Zero, Ninja Gaiden, Ghouls and Ghosts, and probably one of the hardest games ever, Battletoads. All of them are arguably some of the hardest games ever, but all are fun to play. I wish some developers would revisit some of the difficulty those games offered.

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GuyverLT
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 7:35:17 PM

I can think of 3 games that I almost gave up trying to beat. Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden Black, DMC3, just off the top of my head.

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Kokushi
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 8:36:28 PM
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Guyver, for me DMC3 is the hardest game i have ever played, DMC1 & 2 took me a week to finish them but DMC3 took 1 month and it was crazy how difficult it was.

Like some people have said thee should be a balance if you level up the difficulty but when the A.I get perfect aim, never ending spawn of enemies (Treyarch looking at you, the vietnam part in the hill in BO) thats when the fun stop.

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GuyverLT
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 9:16:17 PM

I remember when I 1st played the original DMC3 I couldn't even get past the 1st boss in the beginning I had turn off the the game it made me so mad and start playing it gain until 2 weeks later and I got the ball rolling. But they fixed the level of difficulty in the special edition version which my only gripe with that game is that vergil felt like they threw him in the game he didn't really have his own story & then in the parts of the where you play as Dante you fight Vergil 3 times intead of complete switching it up when you play as Vergil and fight Dante you still fighting Vergil only hes wearing red instead of blue.

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Kall555
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 9:40:29 PM
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Games like the critically acclaimed Ninja Gaiden series were met with praise due to it's difficulty setting. It's half the reason why the original Ninja Gaiden on Xbox got the reviews it did. TEAM NINJA & TECMO's response to the "its too challenging debate" led to the release of Ninja Gaiden Black which gave you easier settings & was more user friendly by shoving health Elixers in your face at every turn. I played this series until my thumbs bled and learnt the game the hard way.

Granted, the AI are as tough as nails and hardly let you breath, so you constantly have to dodge & be quick on your feet. The "Test of Valor" gives you the time to practice your moves the further you progress so you get better while at the same time, the AI gets more challenging the further you proceed in the game. So you're never too good for the AI, and the AI is never too good for you as you're constantly upgrading.

Demons Souls is a different beast altogether. I mean, you can't even pause that game! Let alone take a piss break without the worry of your character dying on screen while you're away. And when you do die, it's back to the Nexus (before the start of a level) with half your health depleted! That game is HARDCORE.

Take the challenge away from these games & they wouldn't be half the fun they were IMO.



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Temjin001
Tuesday, December 14, 2010 @ 10:50:32 PM

I don't think NG is hard like other hard games. That is, it's usually only as hard as you are ignorant. Other games, especially on harder settings, are just designed hard: frustrating poorly designed sequences that present trial and error scenarios that boil down to a test of endurance more-so than trying to refine your abilities through experience and coming to learn where you're weak. Crappy-hard games resort to a player finding AI exploits and design holes for progression.

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AnonWTF
Thursday, December 16, 2010 @ 2:37:27 PM
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You know, some video games do have a difficulty level that you can change. You don't always have to play it on normal...

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TheUglyBassist
Thursday, December 23, 2010 @ 11:11:22 PM
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I just replayed DMC 3 again, and I have to say it felt pretty nice to beat it. I was never very good at it when I first played it. So, I must say, handing it to Vergil 3 and getting an A made me feel pretty good.

The whole game just felt like a legitimate test. I didn't feel at all like I was being forced to man up to the difficulty. I actually enjoyed the challenge.

Word on the street is that Demon Souls is quite a challenge. That just looked really cool. One of these days I need to get my hands on a copy of that.

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