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Final Fantasy Fans: Square Enix Isn't Listening To Us

Square Enix can say what they want.

They supposedly listened to the fans when creating Final Fantasy XIII-2. Now they say they'll make a Final Fantasy HD Collection if the fans want it badly enough. In fact, the company in question routinely says they're "listening" to their fans. They like that word. "Fans."

And yet, if you gathered up all those loyal followers and took a poll, I'm willing to bet over 90% would be disgusted with Square Enix's lack of attention. The vast majority would simply say, "obviously, they didn't listen to us." While it's true that S-E may have made a few concessions in FFXIII-2 (towns, for instance), the style of gameplay is what matters most, and the role-playing fans are the ones you're alienating. Remember when your franchise was an RPG? And not a hybrid? I will defend FFXIII for being a great game; I will never defend it for being a great Final Fantasy.

And that's exactly the point. The FF community isn't exactly split. There's not a great deal of controversy. It's just one overarching complaint that is easily heard; in fact, it's very difficult to avoid. That being the case, how can Square Enix say they'll do something if the fans "want it" when it seems painfully clear they really don't care what the fans "want." What Square Enix desires is a new fanbase; a new following, a new group of gamers that are S-E fans for different reasons. Maybe they've just given up on keeping the older fans; maybe when they say they're "listening," they mean they're listening to other gamers.

I just don't understand how Square Enix can miss the outcry. They can't miss it. That'd be impossible. The only rational answer is that they're ignoring it.

Tags: square enix, final fantasy, gaming industry

6/30/2011 12:13:08 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (71 posts)

Temjin001
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 12:40:59 PM
Reply

While I can't claim to be a hardcore FF fan from the PSX era, I can say I've enjoyed every FF game I've played a whole lot, including even FFXIII and it's battle system. I also antcipate FFXIII-2 to be another highly enjoyable experience, and it is one of next year's most anticipated games for myself.

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 12:56:08 PM

i enjoyed ff13 a lot, too. like you i liked the battle system. it was lot closer to turn based than ff12's mmo type system.

i think it's a little harsh to say they aren't listening based on what we have seen from 13-2. that's a direct follow up to 13 so it's only natural it shares similar gameplay elements like the battle system. passing judgement before seeing the final game is not fair.

the real test to see how much square has been listening will be with the next numbered installment,

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Jawknee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:01:32 PM

"it was lot closer to turn based than ff12's mmo type system."

err.....not really.

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:08:12 PM

yeah two sides going at taking turns which is pretty close to what ff13 does. no, it's classic turn based where action stops but it's not that far from ff10's battle system in my opinion. you encounter an enemy, go to a seperate battle screen, and spend a lot of time hitiing x.



Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/30/2011 1:11:48 PM

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:17:36 PM

Not sure I agree with FFX being like FFXIII... Not even a little bit, really... Neither FFXIII nor FFXII are remotely similar to the battle system of FFX. It's a pretty fantastic difference in feel. There is absolutely no flow of time in FFX battles!!

As for turn based, FFXII felt far more turn based than FFXIII. FFXIII wasn't really turn based. You got to go as soon as you figured out what to do. But no one else waits their turn. If you are indecisive, you just keep getting hacked until you inevitably resort to "AUTO". lol

"that's a direct follow up to 13 so it's only natural it shares similar gameplay elements like the battle system."

See: FFX-2. Not at all like FFX's battle system. Also, more dungeons.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 6/30/2011 1:18:52 PM

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Jawknee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:33:04 PM

I swear Excelsior, you just make stuff up don't you? I'm starting to doubt you ever played FFX or XII. Your ignorance of how the battles systems work is astonishing. FFX is NOTHING like XIII and turning off the Gambits in XII made the battle system MUCH closer to traditional Final Fantasy's than XIII will ever be.

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:06:03 PM

hmm... intersting comments underdog. i sure felt the gameplay in 13 felt closer to the gameplay seen in 10. i thougt 12's battle system was the most radical departure we have seen in the series. it played more like a western mmo than a ff game.

it's been so long since i played x-2, but i disagree its battle system had nothing in common with 10's. i remember the order panel from in the uper right hand of the screen from ffx returning. oh yeah, it had the active time battle system like ff7, plus you could switch jobs mid battle with the dress sphere's. kind of like pardigm shifts in ff13. i guess ff13's battle system has some things in common with x-2's now that i think about.

i'm curious. do you like x-2's battle system?

i don't know, i guess what i'm getting at is i liked ff13 more than 12. i just despised iff12's dull charachters and mmo type battle system, but i know otherrs felt differently.

@jawk

what a surprise. you attacking my opinion once again, and just being downright rude about it. i disagree that 12's battle system was closer to a traditional ff game. it played more like the world of warcraft. how about some freaking civility the next time you disagree with one of my opinions instead of attacking me personally by pointing out my ignorance or accussing me of making stuff up? 99.99% of the people on this site can do that.

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/30/2011 2:26:33 PM

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Jawknee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:28:42 PM

I attacked your opinion because its based in fallacy and ignorance. You just plain make stuff up. Pretty obvious to me you have no clue what you are talking. Some one who is knowledgeable about the given topic at hand doesn't need to exaggerate almost to the point of lying. I don't respect your opinions becasue you twist "opinions" with simple "facts". Seems your understanding of the two words is just as flawed as your ability to come up with new and fresh arguments instead of regurgitating the same nonsense over and over.

Last edited by Jawknee on 6/30/2011 2:31:38 PM

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:46:17 PM

that's no excuse for being so rude. i still think ff12 battle system was closer war of warcraft than a tradidional ff game. i guess we disagree. notice that i can i do that without being disresectful or rude. no need to be so uncivil, and get a damn personal dig in every time you reply to one of my comments.

talk about being hypocrytical. you haven't made one argument against any of the opinions i expressed or disputed any of the facts. just personal attacks pointing out my ignorance. underdog's post would be a great exampole of disagreeing and being an adult about it.

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/30/2011 2:52:31 PM

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:05:19 PM

FFXII's battle system was pretty identical to the MMO FFXI, that's true. However, it didn't bother me. I stated somewhere else that I have no issues with change. I was bothered by FFXIII's simplicity and how much was removed from it compared with past FF's. I loved FFXII's battle system because it had the potential to be constant, while at the same time, had an extreme level of depth, should you decide to take the time to plan and train your characters in the "proper" way. (Making everyone good at something but not ok at everything)

As for FFX-2's battle system, I like it very much. I actually would say it may be my favorite battle system. I hated the dialogue and most of the music, but the battle system was a huge bright spot for me. I don't think it had an order panel, though. The biggest thing about Paradigm Shift in 13 is that there are passive abilities associated with each paradigm. Combination of classes matters not in FFX-2. I actually liken it's system more to older school FF's where you can select a class, but with the addition of being able to change that class mid-battle. Plus, the movement of the dressphere grid to obtain other passive traits or abilities. It was a pretty well-rounded battle system that promoted preparation. I like that kind of control.

I'm definitely with you on FF12's characters (except for Balthier, he was cool). But I didn't really care for FF13's characters either, (save Fang). As for the MMO set up, I was worried about it at first, but the incredible depth it allowed made it easy for me to appreciate. Like I said, I don't mind change. I hate over-simplification.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:06:48 PM

FFXII was far closer to traditional turn-based combat than FFXIII for one reason: while both had the speed factor (bars that need to fill to act), only FFXII would let you pause and assign commands like an RPG is SUPPOSED to do.

FFX was even closer to old-school turn-based as there was no manual movement to speak of during battles. No, FF has only gotten further and further away from the traditional style with each successive entry.

And I can pretty much guarantee the trend will continue with FFXIII-2.

P.S. No more insults from anyone.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/30/2011 3:25:12 PM

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:39:20 PM

@Excelsior
I just wanted to add, that while I appreciate the compliment, I'm buds with Jawk on psn. Is it ok if I ask you not to use me as an example vs. him? That's as tactful as I can ask, I think. lol :p

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:22:43 PM

@underdog

no problem. i do apprreciate your thoughtful replies. i enjoyed reading your insights on ff. you have always been polite, and respectful when replying to my comments. that's a quality i have come to admire in people, and on this site in particular. sorry for singling you out for it..

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/30/2011 4:24:13 PM

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Temjin001
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:24:53 PM

Yeah if there's one thing about FF13's combat that sometimes bothered me was that, since the game has the team moving and running around on the battle plain, the user could've benefitted from direct control over positioning. Every so often I'd have a support role being attacked by one enemy where my other closer aggressors were needing heals or buffs but the support role was too busy fending forthemselves. I know there's the sentinel role to lure scattered enemies in, but every so often conditions would present themselves that weren't ideal for an automated system, making me wish I could have direct control over some elements of the battle system.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 6/30/2011 4:26:44 PM

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Temjin001
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 5:16:32 PM

Ugh, dang it. Now u guys got me over thinking it. Sometimes it's annoying when the support role would autocast buffs or de-buffs that weren't always in the order I'd have preferred. Why couldn't they have let you pause the battle and go and issue commands for the support roles? Instead I have to sometimes form funky paradigm combinations to get the control I desire.

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:21:35 PM
Reply

Ben....

I almost don't even want to comment. I'm literally tired with fighting SE over what it is that I want. Of course I would play the PS2 remakes. Of course I would! And I would love it too.

But what's this garbage about a fan outcry? I call BS. They don't listen to outcries. What about when their Twitter page exploded to the point of crashing at the mere thought of redoing FF7??? That enough of an outcry, SE?!?!

Total BS, SE. Total BS.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 6/30/2011 1:22:17 PM

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Highlander
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:27:48 PM
Reply

I'm tempted to make a comment about listening to customers instead of fans, but their conduct over the last 5 years has meant that increasingly fewer of their former customers are current customers.

Last edited by Highlander on 6/30/2011 1:27:54 PM

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Keeng
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:30:02 PM
Reply

They're very clearly listening with the changes they've put into XIII-2. Seriously, this is getting a little annoying. If you thought FFXIII was a great game, then why not be happy? Who cares if it wasn't like the old FF games. What's important is that after five~ish years of sub-par games and not a single numbered FF, XIII was still fantastic.

I won't argue (again) for why XIII better than the old school RPG design, but I felt a strong urge to express that we, as fans of Square's lineage as a developer, need to appreciate good games. Listening to their fans really isn't that big a deal. When they were cranking out hits in the PS era, they were just making what they thought were good RPGs, which is what they do now and should continue to do forever.

Reggie Fils-Aime said during the E3 conference this year that gamers want something new and exciting, but also something familiar. I think he hit the nail on the head. Both innovation and familiarity are way overrated. If you want the next FF game to be FFVII with better graphics, don't complain about CoD, Madden, or any other franchise that stays the same every year.

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:44:10 PM

Comments like,

"If you want the next FF game to be FFVII with better graphics, don't complain about CoD, Madden, or any other franchise that stays the same every year."

prove to me you just plain old don't get it. No one wants each successive FF to be the same as the last. Obviously if they remade FFVII we'd want it play similarly, but not one FF fan out there wants each FF to play the same way.

However, it's not unreasonable for people to want their franchise to keep similar themes like exploration, controlling your entire party, using strategy over reflex, freedom to advance at your own pace, deep character development, dungeons, open world map, etc. etc. I don't think you get it. None of the FF's have been the same over and over. That's actually part of the appeal and why there have been, across different platforms and hybrids, such an incredible number of Final Fantasy's!

As for your argument about them making good RPG's, name one they've made this generation aside from FFXIII, which in and of itself is not really what you expect when looking for an RPG.

Certainly when you buy a Madden or CoD, you want it to change and innovate. But there sure as hell had better still be a football involved in Madden and guns in CoD. You can't just remove the elements they are known best for and chalk it up to innovation.

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Keeng
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:33:46 PM

FFXIII does keep many of the things that make FF games good. It has a unique, well-developed world (like FFVII, VIII, V, X, etc.).

It is absolutely more about tactics in battle than reflex, to the point that they remove the reflex based engine of something like FFVII-IX and replaced it with a system that will select the obvious attacks for you. It makes you spend less time scrolling through menus and more time doing what RPG battles are about: making smart decisions. XIII is more about tactics and strategy than most of the Final Fantasy games in existence.

It has much deeper character development in terms of story and gameplay than previous FF games. There's nothing in the game you can beat by just grinding out levels like you can in EVERY PS FF.

You're correct that it removed the random exploration and open map. That sort of thing is more subjective and personally, if you tell me a game is open world, that's actually a negative. But more on topic, having an open world map is only a part of like 60% of the FF games, anyway.

I think you misunderstood my comment about them making good RPGs. I meant that back then, they weren't building games around fan outcry and things like that. They worked really hard on games they felt were good and released them. Fans had little-to-no input. I don't think they've made any good games this generation except FFXIII, but it's also the only FF title. I was simply saying that FF is something they've traditionally done their way and until now, their way has always wowed the fans. This one time they do something that isn't what the majority wants and suddenly you're turning on them and saying they've turned their backs.

Madden should always have football, CoD should have guns, and Final Fantasy should have an epic story, a unique battle engine, and high production values. It always does.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:11:21 PM

Keeng: I'm sorry, but you obviously have no idea what made Final Fantasy appealing to role-playing fans.

"Not scrolling through menus" is code for removing depth and instituting action for the sake of modern twitch gaming. Having the game automatically select the "appropriate" action erases the player's need to continually evaluate and decide on their own. It wrenches control and strategy from the player's grasp. Not allowing us to PAUSE and assess the situation and assign commands makes it feel like even more of an action game.

It was a great game. It wasn't a great RPG because it barely qualifies as an RPG. Those who consider themselves veteran FF fans are RPG fans...hence, when the games start to resemble other genres, they're not going to be too happy. This isn't all that complicated and to say everyone wants FFs to be the same is flat out ignorant. That's not what the community wants. I know what they want.

They want an RPG. Get it?

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:34:39 PM

I dunno man. I'm not buying it. It hardly had a world. It had nice background visuals, and a bunch of hallways (which they are apparently fixing in XIII-2).

I fail to see how FF7-9 are reflex based, and I definitely fail to see how selecting an Auto-attack somehow brings back the strategy. That's a weak point for me.

There was almost NO strategy in FFXIII. I was challenged in that game once and only once. The final l'Cie hunt was the only challenge that presented itself to me. And I platinum'd the game. Please... PLEASE describe how it had more strategy than even FFXII! It didn't. Not even close. There isn't even an argument to make in it's favor!

As for games like FFVII-FFIX, there is MUCH more opportunity for strategy. HUGE amounts more right down to the ability to distribute roles. Especially FFIX, as the roles are predetermined for you. Perhaps where you might have an argument, however, is in the difficulty within FFVII-FFIX. Often, the difficulty was much too light. You could get through some areas without a strategy at all. That's a definite issue many reviewers had back in their hay-day. It's my only complaint about them, actually. But it is a legitimate complaint. But that doesn't mean there was no strategy involved.

It simply does not have deeper character development than FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, or FFX. And DEFINITELY not more than FFT had for the top main characters. There's no argument there. Like... as a theatre major, I cannot see how you can make a legitimate argument for that. I'd love to hear it though.

Having the ability to explore in available in FAR more than 60% of FF's. It's there in all of them BUT FFT and FFXIII. Every single FF of the past allows you to back track and wander off the beaten path if you want. And if you hate open world concepts, you don't have to waiver from the beaten path. It's almost always optional!!! FFXIII did not allow that at all, save a couple areas in Gran Pulse MUCH more beyond the half-way point.

FFXIII certainly has high production values, to be sure. It has it's own battle style, but it is entirely without depth and almost devoid of customization. Simply giving each characters 6 versions of one weapon then upgrading them with stupid items completely unrelated to those weapons is all it has.

What it lacks, ultimately, is depth. It's FF-lite. Flashy graphics are indeed a staple, but they should not have been the only priority. The characters were not developed. Perhaps the biggest difference in that area is that past FF's actually force you to live out the pasts as opposed to merely read about it or watch a 30 second clip about it. Sahz almost had a good back story, but it was trumped by his hair and demeanor. He was out of place, unfortunately. Fang was the most believable character, but I wanted more. Lightning might have been good, but poor dialogue left her uninteresting and bland. You need thick backstory that proves why a character has become the broken human being they are.

It's a good game, and I liked it. But it was far too simple and elementary to be an FF. And it lacked all key elements except for production values. Even that is in question with the rumored cuts it experienced.

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Keeng
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:39:57 PM

Ben,

If the Auto-Battle option was taking control from the player and removing depth and strategy, why is it that constantly hitting Auto-Battle doesn't win every single fight, every single time? You're totally right that RPGs are about the depth of tactical combat, and this game cuts the fat out from around that. There's nothing deep about "this enemy is weak against fire, so I am CLEARLY going to cast Fire on it. Time to scroll around until I see Fire every single turn until he's dead!"

FFXIII has more layers than just Curing when you're near death and using Fire on Fire-weak enemies. There's much more to decide on in battle so they don't waste your time making you deal with the obvious stuff. I admit that they sped up a lot of the game but I think it's undeniable that this is a much more complex game than anything we've seen in previous FF titles. It's incredibly telling that there's a significant threat of dying in battle in every single encounter of this game. How many times are you almost dead in a random battle in any other Final Fantasy game?

Perhaps I interpreted some of your comment incorrectly, but it made me feel the need to sort of verify my RPG credentials. I won't claim to be some RPG god or say that I've played them all, because I haven't, by a long shot. I have beaten every FF. I spent literally every day for a whole summer when I was 12 years old trying to beat a boss in FFVIII and failing because I didn't understand the Draw system. I put 300 hours in FFXII to beat Yiazmat and 150 in VII to beat Emerald (without KotR). I'm only saying this to express that I am a huge RPG fan and I have mad respect for the systems and mechanics of these games. I feel like it's fair for me to say that I know a good RPG when I play one because I've spent most of my life on these games and FFXIII is the best I've ever played.

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:45:54 PM

Then Keeng, you should know of the incredible depth beyond "cure when hurt and fire when they weak to fire".

What about class distribution? What about using various strengths of characters? What about the fact that each character is more inclined to different stat strengths than others? etc etc tec. (sorry, gotta go can't write more. lol) You get the idea though, right?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:01:31 PM

Keeng: One can easily win 90% of all the battles in FFXIII without ever once looking at the action selected. That is the truth and it is NOT an RPG because of that.

And you're minimizing the depth of selecting one of about a thousand options from a menu, so don't bother. I could give you a list of massively in-depth situations that greatly outstrips almost any combat situation in FFXIII in every possible way.

Complex? What was so complex about it? Just because there was a significant challenge? That means nothing; it just means the enemies had more HP and did more damage. Oooooh...so deep.

We weren't even able to switch characters in battle. That's completely insane. To not have control; to relegate everything to AI, to have the entire battle be over because the leader is dead, to have Auto Battle eliminate any need for paying attention - I could've gone to sleep and finished battles by hammering on the X button over and over again - and to completely limit our equipment and break it down to a weapon and two accessory slots.

...oh yes, sounds way more complex to me. Are you absolutely certain you played the other FFs? Maybe you need to revisit them.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 6/30/2011 4:01:57 PM

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Arvis
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:18:49 PM

*cough*

Er, I'd like to point out that everyone is making some nice points here. But, just for Keeng's sake, I just want to make an illustration:

You mentioned Madden and COD in your post about us old-school FF RPG gamers. This is kind of an unfair comparison, because we all want "new things" in our Final Fantasy games, but we still want them to BE Final Fantasy games. If I bought Madden 12, popped it in my PS3, and all of a sudden my beloved Miami Dolphins were playing baseball, I'd be a bit annoyed, even if it was an awesome baseball game. If I played COD (god, why would I do that?) and my machine-gun wielding soldier guy strapped on his camo and ammo and then hopped into a go-kart and started racing around, I'd be annoyed with that, too (although, in reality, I might prefer that).

For us, Final Fantasy XIII is like that. Yeah, parts of it really DO feel like a Final Fantasy game, but... so much is missing that is just doesn't feel.... "right." It doesn't, in the grand scheme, feel like a Final Fantasy game. Even though it IS a great video game.

Does that make any sense? We want football, not baseball. Shooting, not go-karts. Hope this helps you understand our mindset.

-Arvis

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Dante399
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 10:46:25 PM

Well everybody's entitled to his/her opinion no doubt about that. I consider my self an RPG hardcore fan because I've played a great lot of them and I believe that FFXIII didn't live up to my expectations nor to the expectations of my other RPG fan friends. I finished FF13 once it came out and I haven't played an RPGs since...until last week when I played FFT. LOL that old game looks on a 52inch tv like *#@% but I mean it when I say that when I rediscovered by chance LOL (I haven't played it for a very long time) that in "Formation" when you want your character to "Learn" new abilities you can go RIGHT and you'll get even more abilities like "move+1" or "counter tackle" lol!! such a discovery but believe me that such things kept me hooked up with RPGs ever since FF7 until now.
FFT has a more complex and richer customization system than FF13.
And if it were up to me I'd be a game developer and designer and I'd remake FF13 again with towns with those little chitchat stories u hear from those town's people, and I'd give more development to each character and I'd create a world map that you can travel through with maybe a big bird, a motorbike, a beautiful ship and maybe that earth digger machine in the game to go freely from place to another. I'd bring back the shops and a blacksmith...something like Monster Hunters' weapons shop. I would think of character limit combinations...something that you discover along the way something like Legend of Legaia new moves discovery..I'd definitely make a turn-base battle system because strategy and RPG go hand in hand! And if I wanted to gain more buyers I'd put an option which allows the game to be either fully RPG or a hybrid.

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Keeng
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 12:48:12 AM

So I was right to feel like somehow my RPG "credibility" was being brought into question. Oh well, now I know.

Look, I know I'm not going to convince anyone to change their mind about this game or Japanese game development in general (I think Japan is currently creating some of the best titles we've seen in a decade). I just feel like there's a lot of hatred towards FFXIII from a lot of game-savvy people and it wouldn't hurt for someone with a different perspective on the game to voice his opinion. There are something like nine articles on here bashing that game and by relation, Square-Enix's lineup of other FFXIII games. It really bothered me that people on the internet think hating FFXIII is universal among RPG fans. Don't think that. Me and two of my hardcore, Japanese text RPG importing, thousands of hours of FFVII playing, Baldur's Gate 2 worshiping friends think the debate over RPGs is really which is the best of all time: FFXII or FFXIII? Beyond that convoluted sentence, my point is that I love RPGs and Final Fantasy as much as you guys so quit saying "Final Fantasy Fans: Square Enix Isn't Listening To Us".

I had to run off to work but I do want to respond to two comments I read and didn't have time to reply to.

To Ben: Yeah, man. I'm sure I played the other games. I was poor growing up and there was a long time in my life when I couldn't afford games. Between FFVII and VIII, I literally never owned another game and until late 1999, those were the only games I played. I can promise you I've played more of those two games than you have. Are you sure you played them? I'll bet money there are more fights you can finish in FFVII holding circle to spam Attack than Auto-battling without changing Paradigms in XIII. And you brought up weapons. The weapon modding in XIII is deeper--and I mean this literally--than everything in VII. Lastly, I'm not minimizing the depth of a 1000-item menu. I'm highlighting the uselessness of scrolling through 1000 spells when you AND the game know all you're trying to do is cast Life on Cloud.

To Underdog15: I don't know if you were supporting me with that comment but if you were, thanks. Most of what you mentioned there are things that most people who played XIII, even many who beat it, never noticed.

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Beamboom
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 5:25:02 AM

I think there is a general problem on this site that as soon as someone voice a different opinion or perspective, especially coming from a new reader, they are immediately labelled as having no idea what they talk about, being making stuff up, and that they should basically shut up.
I don't like that attitude, no matter who it comes from.

Perceptions differ. There is not one, universal truth, not even in video games.


Last edited by Beamboom on 7/1/2011 5:26:29 AM

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Arvis
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 9:18:53 AM

Beamboom, that isn't fair. Read Keeng's first post. He's just as guilty of playing up his own opinion as truth as anyone else is. The article is saying "SE isn't listening to us because they're not giving us what we want!" and Keeng's first post basically says "Yes they ARE listening to their fans because they're giving me what *I* want and what I want is way better than what you want."

I think we should always try to see/respect differing viewpoints, but it isn't fair to act like one group is "in the wrong," so to speak. :(

-Arvis

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Beamboom
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 10:03:36 AM

But Arvis, that *is* "the truth" for Keeng. Perceptions differ!

To be categorical in presenting your point of view is one thing. To be categorical in describing others views as nonsense is another matter.
It's hard not to be categorical when presenting your own views. At least I know I struggle with that. But that's fair enough imo. Everyone argues like they "know the truth". Simply cause it is... To them! Thing is, opinions and perceptions differ. And it's perfectly legal to change opinion during the discussion.

For instance, when I insist that Mass Effect belong to the RPG bag, I do so cause I honestly believe so. People may argue against that of course, but to then start saying things like "you don't KNOW rpg's like I do!" or "I know what the fans want - you don't!" or "you clearly have no idea what you talk about" is just so unnecessary and adds NOTHING but frustrations to the discussion.


Last edited by Beamboom on 7/1/2011 10:10:46 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 8:46:48 PM

Keeng: There isn't a single solitary article at PSXE "bashing" FFXIII. Not one. That extreme exaggeration means I really can't respond to the rest of what you wrote.

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Keeng
Saturday, July 02, 2011 @ 2:05:22 AM

To Arvis: I didn't say they're giving me what I want. I doubt I would say that simply because, I don't have an demands or feeling of entitlement from Square. I trust them to make fantastic games and to me, they always do. I think the FACT that they're putting things in XIII-2 that people demanded after XIII is proof that they are listening to fans like you and I don't see how literally anyone could take that differently.

To Beamboom: I appreciate your comment. I am mostly trying to convey that there are many different perceptions of that game, even among die-hard fans. The funny part is, I'm not a new reader at all! I've been subscribed to PSX's email list since before this generation of consoles if I remember correctly. I don't often comment because someone in the community almost always nails exactly what I'm thinking (usually Zettai or World) and I tend to check the site via the mobile page, which doesn't allow comments. Hell, I think I even applied for a job here! This particular issue just hit a boiling point for me and I could not resist speaking up. But if anyone wants to come after me and say I'm not a fan for liking a game they dislike...that doesn't change either of our feelings on the topic at hand so they can be as angry as they like.

To Ben: If you want to argue semantics, we can do that. The fact is, there are more than half a dozen articles here describing your acute dislike for FFXIII and/or Square-Enix's mishandling of the franchise as it relates to that game. I'm not even saying there shouldn't be. You clearly have a profound love for the series like most of your users, including myself. If I felt like a major entry wasn't up to snuff, I would talk about it a lot, too. You SHOULD be complaining about FFXIII if that's how you feel about it. I don't blame you for frequently expressing your opinions on the matter. But, if me pointing that out means you can't respond to the rest of my post (somehow) I guess I understand.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Saturday, July 02, 2011 @ 7:45:47 PM

Keeng, it's all in your damn head. I'm sorry, but I hate this kind of exaggeration. The number of times I've said I loved in FFXIII, ESPECIALLY in the articles you reference, is probably well over 20. In fact, I routinely DEFEND FFXIII for various reasons.

So no, you're wrong about this.

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burnedknight
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:45:33 PM
Reply

It's really starting to get annoying with square enix.They apparently do not care about their fans and i just don't understand why because without their earlier fans they wouldn't be the company they are today.No one is asking for the same final fantasy game everytime just the stuff the ff fan knows like towns among many things.

Last edited by burnedknight on 6/30/2011 1:52:47 PM

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Lawless SXE
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:46:51 PM
Reply

Well, if you stop buying their mistakes, maybe they will start listening. Then again, maybe they can change up their style for a game or two, get new fans, then piss them off by going back to their old ways.

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Highlander
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:39:40 PM

That would be their risk now. They are in the position of having ticked off their old customers, and have attempted to court new customers. If they subsequently go back to what their old customers wanted, the new customers get ticked. The thing is, even if they did go back to what the old customers wanted, would the old customers return, or might they be left with the few customers old and new willing to give them a chance still?

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556pineapple
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 1:48:03 PM
Reply

This is a little bit off subject, but...

What happened to Versus XIII!? I was really looking forward to it, and now it's seems to have vanished completely with the announcement of XIII-2.

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Excelsior1
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:01:06 PM

i have no idea what happened to vs 13. the last i saw on it was the footage square showed awhile back behind close doors. i have a sneaking suspicion it's being brought over to the 360.

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 6/30/2011 3:02:37 PM

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Russell Burrows
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:06:36 PM
Reply

I am going to talk with my wallet.
FFXIII-2?? not buying!!
Versus?? not buying!!

I got my RPG fix from Oblivion, Fallout 3 goty and New Vegas + dlc.

My new RPG fix??

SKYYYYRRRIIIMMM!!!!

Far Cry 2

Rage.

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CHAOS THEORY X
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 2:08:43 PM
Reply

Protest outside the building!

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Vivi_Gamer
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:06:47 PM
Reply

I beg to differ, The E3 footage of XIII-2 shows many changes, ok the battle system is still the same, but in my eye that is a good thing as it is a sequel, if the game had a completely different battle system it just would not relate well to XIII-1.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:13:12 PM

"ok the battle system is still the same"

That's all that matters. That's what made FFXIII more of an action game than an RPG. Take the Dragon Age style of combat and drop it into the format they have for FFXIII-2, and I'll be happy. Then we'll have an RPG.

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Jawknee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:36:47 PM

Except....X-2's battle system differed greatly from X and that worked out just fine. They should have listened to the majority of their "fans". I understand you like the system but you are in the minority.

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Underdog15
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:42:40 PM

I'm not even sure who's in the majority/minority anymore.

I mean, how many people bought FFXIII based on name vs. who liked it vs. who tried for first time and didn't like it.... ya know? lol

Even the next one will be hard to tell where their fans lie. They've said they listened to fans and fixed it. I think it's something we can't really gauge until a couple entries in when it either grows or continues to deplete. I mean... 6mil sales is good, but as a multiplat, it should have done far better than that, I would think.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 3:56:34 PM

Jawknee: The battle system really wasn't that much different. When you compare FFX-2 to X and FFXIII to X......well, that's where you find the massive differences.

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Jawknee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:10:37 PM

X-2 focused more on a Jobs based system rather than just building your characters how you wish using the Grid. Of course they were similar but the differences were greater in X vs X-2 than what were are seeing XIII vs. XIII-2.

Last edited by Jawknee on 6/30/2011 4:11:51 PM

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Vivi_Gamer
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:59:16 PM

I for one would hate a battle system like DA, FF is not meant to control like an MMO... (part of the reason...only part of the reason I disliked XII.) XIII's battle system was more focused on having the right paradigm on at the right time over what command you would choose, this is why auto battle did not bother me so much, though I would personally like the option to remove it too, as you can get into the habit of relying on it as it is at the top of the menu.

One thing I do like about XIII is that you do not control the characters with the D-pad, but with menus, I think this is key to keeping the quality of the old RPG's we used to love. Lost Odyssey being the last great turn based RPG was also controlled by menus and not the d-pad, i reckon if S-E makes a new formular, keeping the menu system, they could still continue greating great RPG's well all know and love.... well forthe gameplay anyway, XIII's story and characters were back on form since X if you ask me.

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Fane1024
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 2:26:38 AM

How is FFXIII an action game?

From what I've heard (not played it), it seems even LESS (how do I put this?) immediate than previous FFs. When I think action, I think: press a button and your character acts instantly. I don't see how "Auto-battle" fits with "action game" at all.

S-E may be courting the COD audience, but that doesn't make FFXIII an FPS.

It sounds more like an RTS to me.



Last edited by Fane1024 on 7/1/2011 2:29:48 AM

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BTNwarrior
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:02:55 PM
Reply

sounds like you have a new poll all lined up

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Nas Is Like
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:21:38 PM
Reply

Square-Enix likes to pretend they listen to the fans when they really don't. They would rather do things their way, how they want and what they want instead. That's why they fell off hard since the 90's.

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Ludicrous_Liam
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 4:54:10 PM
Reply

:P....no offense, but you guys should just give up now lol.

While I'm here typing this, thought I'd let something out;

I said a few (well..quite alot of) articles back my understanding of a 'true' gamer. It was someone who would be willing to try every genre, not stick to just one, and plays for the fun of the game. I always saw people who played RPG's not 'true' gamers. I mean, when it all balls down to it, all your doing is building up a character and keep playing with the promise of 'something'. Weather that be collecting every last thing in the game or whatever. I don't know I just see them more of, collectionist's? I mean, you say your in it for the tactics and story (and remember I'm saying this with no experiance of any FF's.), then why do you not consider games like MGS4, Uncharted (singleplayer for story; multiplayer for tactics), BFBC2 among FF's? I just don't get it.

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Naztycuts
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 5:20:22 PM

Haha Play FF7 and beat the Emerald and Ruby weapons. Then tell me if you feel the same way. RPG's are so much more in depth than any other genre though they have seemed watered down a bit to me this gen compared to the PS and PS2 days. If you see yourself as a true gamer by your own definition then you really should make yourself play through FF7 so you can see why so many people loved it so much. There are so many things you can do in them. FF7 for instance there's a crossdressing part, a part where you ride a motorcycle, a casino type area, a submarine you can drive, an airplane that can only travel on land (or water) I cant remember which lol, and an airship that lets you go anywhere. There are just too many reasons you need to check it out before writing off the fans lol. I would fit your definition, I play almost every genre including RPG's with mad skill I might add. :p

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Highlander
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 5:26:40 PM

You have your answer...

You "just don't get it".

It's that simple. You're dismissing the entire RPG genre in your post, and that's near guaranteed to earn you some kind of response.MGS4, and Uncharted are story driven, but they are *not* RPGs. You don't get it because either you lack the experience with the genre to understand sufficiently, or you don't want to get it.

Having a preference for one genre or another doesn't alter whether someone is a 'true gamer'. Even the concept of a 'true gamers' smells a little elitist. But to use your definition, we're all true gamers in that we appreciate good games. But for those of us that particularly enjoy RPGs, being a 'true gamer' does not alter our perception of FF, FFXIII or RPGs. Nor does having a specific preference alter whether we are 'true gamers'.


Last edited by Highlander on 6/30/2011 5:29:29 PM

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Ludicrous_Liam
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 3:33:11 AM

Fair enough Highlander, I guess your right.

It's just...never mind lol.
I might just look at a few playthrough's of some FF's, as I no longer use my PS2/PS1.

Believe it or not I'm a tactical guy, so if I like what I see I may look into that HD collection rumour. It's just my perception of people who play RPG's are people who will play all day just to level up their character; perhaps I'm drawing similarities to Wow when I shouldn't, but then again I wouldn't know the difference. I accept the fact I'm being a tad naive, though my definition of a true gamer still stands. So with that..I shall look into Final Fantasy.

Sorry if I sound 'elitist', but I just believe that's what a true gamer is.

Last edited by Ludicrous_Liam on 7/1/2011 3:35:48 AM

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wiley_kyotee
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 5:38:48 PM
Reply

I know I am way out of the league here as I have only played FFX. (Yes I know, I have not played VII. At least not yet, but I have given it some thought as it is on PSN. Just have a backlog of games that I have still yet to play.) But I really liked the strategy involved with the turn based battle system of X. It was so different from any game I had played as I had never played an JRPG before. It gave me the time to analyze and reason out each action during battle. When I read reviews and comments of XII and XIII, I just didn't feel interested in playing them as they described the battle system as being more real time based.

I know SE is trying to gain new customers, but didn't FFX, and the others before it, sell enough to stick with a turned based RPG? At least they could create separate games this generation that cater to each style of play and see which sells better and gets more buzz.

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Claire C
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 5:44:16 PM
Reply

Articles dealing with Square always have by far the most interesting and entertaining comments. =<.<=

I myself am still working my way through quite a few FF games (let alone all of Square's great rpg series) so I'll stick to just reading for now. =D

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marcusfrommo
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 6:09:36 PM
Reply

Good. The whole fight, fight, fight, fight boss then head to a town or city is so yesterday. Then your running back and forth talking to people to get info with very little clue where to go. Thank you.

I loved ff13 in that there's no weapon or armor repairs, you get healed after every fight, you literally can continue when you die after every fight, All the stores are at the save points, once you purchase the magic or attack, you can use it whenever you want without having to purchase some ether to replenish your magic, and the fact that I didn't have to run to the vendors every 5 minutes is very refreshing.

If you look at ff13 as a long action game with rpg elements, it's fine. For all you ff7 lovers out there, you should listen to Adam Sessler soapbox on g4's website on ff7.

Just saying.

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Stabs88
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 6:30:33 PM
Reply

Im all about turn base, but i want to see Versus come out on top. Im a huge kingdom hearts fan and i know button mashers are not the "RPG" type but good characters, a great storyline, and graphics will catch my eye. Nothing stays the same forever...nothing. We've seen it now only in gaming but around the world! Everyone has there breaking points and for most of you seems like you dont even wanna look at a different "style" RPG. I say grow up. Granted Square has gone WAY down hill but if they fail with im going to say the next 2 games (XIII-2 and Versus) they will loss more fans then they can dream of

Last edited by Stabs88 on 6/30/2011 6:32:25 PM

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Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 9:24:59 PM
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Mornelithe
Thursday, June 30, 2011 @ 9:39:53 PM
Reply

This is typical in the industry, almost all developers are looking to cater to a 'new' audience. Look at Call of Duty, the majority of old fans, loved the WW2 setting, and had little to no interest in that particular franchise going Modern.

But, that didn't matter to them, they just made Modern Warfare, and found themselves a new audience (yes, it's very popular still, I know...but they lost allot of their original core in the process).

This seems to be a problem with multiplatform developers, though, as the 1st parties tend to always base their projects around their original fans, at least, that's what I've seen with Sony's folks.

Unfortunately, when people were pointing this out originally with games like CoD, the collective masses told them to shut up, and that the world had killed more Nazi's than had ever existed and blah blah blah. Well, you all helped set the precedent.

Enjoy it.

For those who aren't interested in encouraging this kind of activity, I urge you to voice your opinion with your wallet. Don't buy their games. Make the decision, even if the game looks good. Simply, don't buy it. They're not going to learn anything, when they're selling millions of copies of games.

Last edited by Mornelithe on 6/30/2011 9:40:47 PM

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___________
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 4:27:56 AM
Reply

ahhhhhh nothing like a good FF article to get the blood racing!
or torches flaming..........
$E listens to there fans as well as antivision does!
honestly!
will do a collection if the demands enough?
how many million personal invitations are you requesting?
maybe we need to start a petition and shove it down wadas mouth so he cant pretend not to see it!

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Excelsior1
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 8:26:57 AM

ipeople are pretty passionate about final fantasy. people are mostly civil here(except for maybe one) if somebody from square tried to read through those comments and decide what the fans really want they'd probably go nuts. opinions are all over the place. there seem to be some themes, though. townns, shops, ditch the kill tubes, slow down the gameplay or allow people to puase and issue commands. i agree with all those sentiments, but perish the thougt of a ff game playiing like dragon age,

as far as i know they are listening to an extent. it looks like towns/shops are back and there is some exploration. it looks like lightning is wearing armour, and the tradidional interaction with npc's has returned those are all moves that show some evidence of listening to me.

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pillz81
Tuesday, July 05, 2011 @ 10:51:18 AM

It is all a case of too little too late for me. Just like to time when S-E had the Western focus testing of FFXIII done at the ass end of development, when all feedback is useless at that point. Talk about too late. This according to a Kotaku article titled "Final Fantasy XIII Developers Couldn’t Cater To Western Tastes".

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bridgera
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 4:52:08 AM
Reply

I loved the Final Fantasy series for a long time, 1 to 10 are all great games (except for #2, but even that was a step in a better direction).

At what point do we loose faith in this company to produce a game that we like ?

Personally, being that the last game that I liked was X, and that came out 10 years ago, I've given up on this company. I'll buy remakes of old games, but I have 0 interest in XIII-2 or Versus, or any other sequels to that series. Normally I wouldn't be able to pull myself away from a sequel, but there's no attraction to XIII-2 for me.

I see a lot of articles on this site about S-E, so it's obvious the author really misses the quality titles that SE used to pump out on a yearly basis.

I share in that disappointment. Hopefully they turn it around for you, but I think they've lost me.

Last edited by bridgera on 7/1/2011 4:52:53 AM

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AnonWTF
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 3:58:34 PM
Reply

It seems the loyal followers are just too few compared to other things. I'm guessing most of those followers aren't going to buy this game, but I'm starting to think it will have little impact on sales. Because they just flat out ignored yall...

Video games like Armored Core and Monster Rancher would not dare do that!

Btw, do any of you guys like the Sakura War video games?

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Mornelithe
Friday, July 01, 2011 @ 4:04:27 PM

Well, at the heart of the matter, is that the older core gamer's, the ones who used to be labeled derogatorily, geeks, nerds, basement dwellers etc... are the minority. Everyone was so quick to brand us as losers and virgins and whatever... Now that it's socially acceptable, we're left in the past. Because, there's simply more people getting into the industry.

I call them all followers, people who jump on the bandwagon, lest they become the outcasts, we ourselves, once were.

I'd spit in all their faces, if I could muster up enough saliva.

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pillz81
Tuesday, July 05, 2011 @ 10:52:54 AM

Wholehearted agreement with Mornelithe there.

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Edito
Saturday, July 02, 2011 @ 2:44:58 AM
Reply

Maybe the ppl who liked FF XIII are the new Final Fantasy Fans cause for me FF XIII can't be considered a true Final Fantasy i stoped playng FF with X and for me that was the greatest RPG ever and i don't give a sh*t about Square...

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BigBoss4ever
Sunday, July 03, 2011 @ 3:48:50 PM
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Said many times, let se die with wada, and restore square soft glory with their true talent like sakaguchi, nomura, nobuo, toryyama

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afisher14
Monday, July 04, 2011 @ 2:47:14 PM
Reply

To hell with FF13-2...I WANT KINGDOM HEARTS COLLECTION. skip all the side stories...I want another console game. they haven't made one in 5 years. If they listen to the fans, they would know that people want a kingdom hearts collection...i've almost lost all faith in Square-Enix...

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