Square Enix On What To Expect From Next-Gen Graphics

Square-Enix listen Gameplay is key to a great game.

13 up, 0 down

Yes of course graphics will get better... but I don't think all these advancements will be displayed by Squeenix.

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What are you talking about! Final Fantasy XIII is one of the best looking games on the playstation 3. You can stay bitter over XIII, but one thing you can't deny S-E is it's major production value.

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Last edited by Ultimadesires on 7/25/2011 10:42:48 AM

11 up, 8 down

Meh, the character models(blocky fingers aside) look good but the rest of the game is just ok in my opinion. Sony's first party offerings look much better. Especially the fingers.

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Last edited by Jawknee on 7/25/2011 10:49:20 AM

10 up, 10 down

Uncharted, MGS, GT, inFAMOUS, KZ > Any FF game.

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I dunno about that, JMO. I'm not sure anything beat out FF9 on PS1. And I'm not sure what beat out FFX or especially FFXII on PS2. There's a lot about FFXIII I didn't like, but it's production values were pretty top notch. Mind you, FFXIII moderately cartoon-realist approach lends itself to somewhat of an illusion of extremely high-end graphical prowess, but none-the-less, it's pretty stellar. I still haven't given inFamous 2 a shot yet (back log), but it's definitely better than the first.

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He's just talking about graphics fidelity. Square was once the king when it came to graphics, and while FFXIII is certainly one of the best graphic presentations we have seen this generation, it doesn't match up to Metal Gear Solid 4, God of War III, Uncharted 2 or Killzone, etc. As I said, the characters models look great(minus their block like fingers) but the environments and and back drops are kinda meh when compared to Sony's first party offerings.

I mean c'mon, Metal Gear Solid 4 came out in 2008 and all the characters actually had cylindrical fingers.

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@Jawk
So agree with him that those games were better graphically for their time than -ANY- FF?

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Jawkners, I have an extra costume for Lightning for Dissidia 012 but can't seem to find any option to change her clothes, help a bother out?

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Prerenderd CGI cutscenes aside, MGS was just as good if not better than Final Fantasy X and XII in some aspects on PS2. I agree it's not fair to compare games like Uncharted, Killzone and inFamous to old school Final Fantasy's and that Square was once the king of graphics but if we want to just compare the said games to FFXIII and even XIV, I believe he's correct. Square is slipping. That may change though once Versus XIII comes out.

@World, I think you can only change their costumes when play modes other than the main story. While playing the main campaign, their costumes are locked to their default ones. Once in the other modes you change it by going to the menu where you customize your character, at the top right you should see a section that says costume change. Then you just press triangle.

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Last edited by Jawknee on 7/25/2011 4:57:02 PM

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ah i see, thank you

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I'd agree but seeing FF vs. XIII in its pre-stages and looking really good already I think SE can. Also, they have a screenshot that's supposedly too good for us to see at the moment. It sounds like they're really pushing the ps3, point aside.

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SE has to start to understand something. Yes we love the great visuals, but spending $50 million or more on a game can be a terrible waste of time. When less than 10% is spent on actually programming the game, and the other 90% goes into the art an CGI, the result is something that looks great, but doesn't really play so well or have much depth to it. I really think that SE has been heading down this route where they really are trying to make something more like an interactive movie and less like a game. The emphasis in FF has been almost entirely on the visuals and CGI. That's the wrong emphasis in my opinion.

Regarding what they are saying about the improvement in graphics. I have a couple of thoughts. The fist thought is regarding the technical side of this. I think that Merceron is talking about ray tracing or a simplified version of ray tracing. The quote "physically-based rendering, physically-based lighting. I think people will take advantage of global illumination, or at least some form approximation of global illumination" Is talking about rendering games based on the physical properties of the objects in the game and the way that light interacts with the objects and their physical properties. That sounds a lot like ray tracing.

As I've said before, ray tracing is a complete departure for video games and although it may complicate some things is may simplify others. All the different elements of the graphics engine of a current game include the various physics elements collision detection, motion, surfaces, reflections and all of that. With a ray tracing approach, all of those things are tied together in a single pass or processing. Oddly enough the Cell architecture is well designed for this kind of graphics work because it is designed to work on large amounts of data flowing through a process - SIMD processing, which is something that ray tracing benefits greatly from. If the next console from Sony builds on the CellBE design with more SPUs and more cores in general along with a contemporary GPU design that works well for ray tracing also (nVidia's designs strike me as better since their programmable elements are more capable than those on the AMD/ATI designs), we could see ray tracing become a reality.

The fact that SE, a group known to pursue visual excellence almost at the expense of other aspects of a game, are talking about rendering in these terms; suggests that we could be looking at next gen consoles capable of some form of ray tracing.

My second though is regarding the realism of the graphics. I think that what is said about realism is off base. Undoubtedly there are games which will benefit from greater realism. A game like Heavy rain for example, would be even better if it's graphics were that much more realistic. Games like Ratchet and Clank? Not so much.

I honestly think you can take the realism too far in a game. Most regular readers here know I am not fond of the ultra violence and gore in many games. realistically rendered disembowelment in games like God of War may be entertaining to some, but I don't believe that the majority actually like that. If the realism of such depictions of violence increases again to the point where the visual presentation is essentially as realistic as being there, is that a good thing? One of the things that separates games from reality and makes the violence in games more acceptable is the simple fact that it is a game. As technology improves and the depictions in games close in on reality, that separation fades, and it's harder to see the dividing line.

Now, reality is a relative thing. Ratchet and Clank games - for example, exist in their own world, and fully ray traced R&C would look incredible. Putti9ng all the 'realism' possible into that game world works - as long as it's kept within the established game world. That keeps the game, feeling like a game. It's OK to talk of cartoony games and there being a plateau that can be reached in graphical fidelity in such games, but I think that does in a way sell those games short. If you implement a game world for such characters, then why not apply all the realism possible to the lighting and physical properties of objects (and characters) in that world. The key thing is maintaining the consistency in that world. If you compare the R&C games on PS3 against the ones on PS2, there is a huge leap in the realism of the game world depicted. R&C on the PS3 feels more real, more solid. I don't see a plateau problem as long as game makers remain consistent in their game worlds.

but as I said, realism needs to be taken with care so that we do not end up with uber violent games that are indistinguishable from reality. If we think that the campaigns against games are bad now, imagine how they would be in that situation...

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Last edited by Highlander on 7/25/2011 11:04:31 AM

6 up, 8 down

yup.

I don't care if the gameplay isn't there.

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That's all fine and good Highlander, but now I think you need to tell us how you REALLY feel about it.

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OK, I loathe Square Enix, but am excited about the possibilities of the next generation, and I fear the consequence of too much realism in violent games.

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And now thanks to the awful attack in Norway, violent games are under the media gun again...

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110725/00145515228/here-comes-video-game-backlash-due-to-norway-tragedy.shtml

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@High: Interestingly I've so far only seen articles with the same kind of content as your link there, and none that's actually blaming gaming for any of this.

A *horrible* example of media twisting though, is an american right wing journalist (named Glenn Beck, anyone know about him?) who compares the youth camp that were attacked with the Hitler Jugend.
A summer camp where more than 80 kids were shot down and killed and he draws comparisons with Hitler Jugend.

*speechless*

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Last edited by Beamboom on 7/25/2011 4:16:01 PM

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Glenn Beck is one of the worst examples of what passes as TV journalism today. He is not so much journalist as he is an opinionated talking head and performance artist. I avoid him like the plague and suggest the rest of the world do likewise.

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Thankfully, even the demons at Fox realized they had to let Beck go.

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Right, now Satan just needs to get rid of Ed Schultz, Rachael Maddow, and Chrissy "Have another Drink" Matthews over at MSLSD.

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I honestly didn't think Avatar looked all that good if James Cameron was going for realism. It looked like a video game. District 9's CGI impressed me a whole lot more.

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I don't think he did. I mean how could he, after all it was all taking place on an alien planet with alien lifeforms. I think he went for a dreamy, adventurous, colourful, epic look. But yeah, the planet could have been a fantastic video game environment.

However the expressions, movements, and general world physics were quite realistic in my opinion. We've never seen anything like that in a video game and I think that's what SE have in mind.

I've not seen District9 yet though! Waiting for a good deal on the blu-ray.

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Last edited by Beamboom on 7/25/2011 12:51:26 PM

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You can score it for cheap on Amazon. It's $14.99 USD right now. 24.99 on the Amazon UK site.

The CGI was much more impressive in my opinion. And it was done for a fraction of the price and with a much smaller team. Image Engine in Vancouver, Canada I think.

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I know!! And it's £8.49 at Play - delivery included!
But these are without Norwegian subtitles, only French and Hindi! It's *so* frustrating to see it at that price, been drooling over that for months now.

It's strange: Subtitles on Blu-rays are often limited to a very few languages, while almost all DVD releases contain most languages right away - including District 9.
I have *no* idea why it is like this.

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Last edited by Beamboom on 7/25/2011 3:00:13 PM

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100% agreement, Avatar paled compared to D9's realism.

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Oh man I gotta get that movie.

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@Jawknee

You must have some super high standards then, if you didn't think Avatar had somee excellent graphics.

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I don't know where this guy is getting that idea that we're going to seeing a huge leap, but if really want to see what next gen will be like come then the original Crysis is a realistic indicator. Why? Its currently the only advanced game in term of visuals/graphics.

"The conclusion I would draw from that is we might end up seeing the difference way more in realistic-looking games, rather than those trying to achieve a cartoony look."

Tim Sweeney would disagree with guy and why? Sweeney have said that engine programmers are a very long ways off this. So yeah I don't know where this guy obviously got the idea that game developers going to output game engines that could rival either Toy Story or Avatar in visual fidelity.

"The bottom line is that we never really know what to expect".

As I have said, if you really want a realistic indicator then the Crysis games is a good one and why? Its engine(Cryengine 2-3) are engines built with future hardware that does not currently exist in mind.

Overally its quite clear that this guy despite being a technology director, is blowing a hyperbole.

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Unless the next leap is not simply an update to existing rendering methods, but wholesale change to something completely new enabled by the greater power in the hardware.

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Last edited by Highlander on 7/25/2011 11:19:30 AM

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In the pre-dreamcast days it was always easy to look to the arcades to see what the future held for console games. Sega's Model 1-2-3 technology always just blew me away. Even Capcom's CPS-2 powered games boasted 2D processing that made many SNES and PSX renditions of their arcade games pale in comparison.
While I think there are those that think graphics can't go any further, I sure as heck know they can. Even without the arcades to tell me.

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I was at am amusement park recently and felt a particular sadness when walking through the video arcade and seeing graphics that are still not as good as PS2. Back in the day Arcades were the pinnacle.

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Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 7/25/2011 4:09:33 PM

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Lol I know World! But are you sure they were not from before the PS2 era? Do they even make arcade machines anymore?

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I know for a fact some of them were, which really just means that industry gave up too easily. They probably don't make many anymore. Arcades are still big in Japan but not here in the west. Once consoles surpassed them they were doomed.

I've had a little daydream before of opening an arcade-club with state of the art stuff, a wide range of tasty foods and soda's from around the world, and hot pole dancing girls. Not naked though, gotta keep it PG13 for the youth. I'd have loved a place like that when I was a teen.

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Yeah, I think the arcade scene was part of my soul for a while. I miss it. I worked at one early on in my life for a few years. It was a blast hanging with buds and punching it out on the latest hot games.

And yeah, the progression of arcade technology basically came to a screeching halt around the PS2 era. When Sega's Naomi chipset hit the arcade scene we saw a pretty clear cut convergence of graphics quality between the two markets. Aside from a handful of Sega updates like VF4, consoles have held onto the lead ever since.

I told my wife that in the future I'm going to have a custom arcade cabinet with some favorite games setup within it, probably with like Tekken connected to the net. That'd be uber sweet. For now I just have to play with my HRAP3 arcade stick on my lap.

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Last edited by Temjin001 on 7/25/2011 10:58:42 PM

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Hey SE, how about finishing games you are working on this Gen.

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not a bad idea

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Yeah. I just wander how much more can they do without stepping into expensive PC territory. Metal Gear started that way when the Ps3 came out with the hair blowing and heavy detail with Snake's character etc. Most games started to shy away though, cheap, quick, and easy was the route.

Considering the way Ps3's exclusives look vs multiplates devs games. why would Sony even bother they created a beast with the Ps3 and multiplate heads won't even take full advantage of it. Now there saying there ready for new hardware please! Putting out crappy ports in such. So if developers are laid back this gen what makes them work harder on next gen. Santa Monica, Naughty Dogg, Sucker Punch, Rock star but, only beacuse of the working game play they did with red dead, and Epic Games maybe would take it as a self rewarding challenge. They are some of the best studios who would even take advantage of the new hardware. Bio shock team has gotten better.

Cod, Bungie, franchises are suspended till further noticed for the charges of all there games looking the same. Lol! What could the Xbox engine do for Halo 4? Probably next to noting.
Seriously though my Ps3 game library is starting to favor Ps3 exclusives. I think that 3D, Ps3 Move, and Kinect showed up for a reason. They have to start stretching it out a little. Would Sony or MS give you high dollar gaming PC hardware for a rinky dinky home console price?

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Replace the CellBE with a new version with double the number of SPUs and a much enhanced SPU design, that gives you 3-4 times the computing power of the current Cell. Even the original CellBE can still give the latest x86 designs a run for their money in SP floating point ops. So how much better would an updated and enhanced one with more cores do?

Couple that with a modern GPU and decent amounts of memory. I think you'll find that could challenge PCs, especially at the nominal 1080p resolution.

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To be honest, I've been to this site since 2008 and this is the only site where sometimes, at the end of the article, it ends off with a smily face of some sort.

Sorry for being off topic. :)

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I think that's cool. Ben is part of the "internet generation".
And so am I, look: :-)

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I don't want much realism from you though SE, I want fantasy, as in Final Fantasy. So focus on the gameplay and the world it's in k?

Let's hope this isn't telegraphing some freaky world where all anime influence leaves FF and they try to make it like Uncharted.

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Here we go again there's another console generation coming and all developers can talk about is how much prettier the graphics will be cause that's what seems most important to them. I wish they would put more effort into improving other aspects of videogames that will improve the immersion of games. What about improved A.I.? Imagine GTA6 on the PS4 where all the NPCs have their own personalities and behaved much more realistically and they are allot more interactive, it'd be cool if you could talk to NPCs and ask for there phone number so you can schedule a date/activity and this you can do with any NPC in the game. It would also be nice if NPCs would react more realistically to player actions. For example in previous GTAs if you go on a killing rampage on NPCs if you leave the area for a couple minutes and come back the NPCs barely acknowledge your existence let alone that you just killed a bunch of people a couple minutes ago... So i'm hoping that A.I. is drastically improved next gen. not just graphics.

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I'd like to see it better as well, the only real spot for AI impressiveness this gen has been Killzone 2 and 3.

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That's *exactly* what I hope too, jdt. As far as I understand it's a memory issue that the game can't remember what you did a few minutes ago in open world games. It's *really* annoying.

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as far as multi games go for next gen, i don't think we'll see much difference. in graphics.
unless microsoft switches to blu-ray, but i think hell has a better chance of freezing over than MS going blu-ray.

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All they need is a large hard disk as standard, and really, not even MS would make the next gen console without it.
But seeing how blu-ray is becoming the standard new movie format I'd be very surprised if they don't include a blu-ray drive (or a similar capacity drive).

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Last edited by Beamboom on 7/26/2011 6:47:39 AM

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An FF7 remake

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Improved subsurface light scattering gives better realistic cgi be it movies or video games.

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what for?
we need a improvement in sound and just the fun factor over graphics!
graphics have come such a far way, we really dont need any more.
sound on the other hand, well compare a great sounding movie like the dark night to a game.
like comparing a ps2 game to a ps3 game!
fun factor too, almost every ps2 game even ps1 game are more fun then there ps3 iterations.
thats simply because ps3 games these days all developers care about is it as good as we can make it look?
f*ck the gamplay, who cares if its fun, we just need to make it look real perty!
AKA GTAIV!
i like to call it the michael bay syndrome.
all flash, no substance!
all pants, no knickers!

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I hope this new hardware has Town Rendering on a chip :P

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Graphics are going to go extreme places. Eventually we'll see things like smoke, water, and fire rendered flawlessly. I think eventually in video games (a long ways off) we'll see things that are absolutely nuts to us now, such as like... physics based audio... quantum physics applied to video games.

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