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FFXIII Only Suffered Because It Was Called "Final Fantasy"

This really needs to be said.

The Final Fantasy XIII debate will continue to rage but in truth, all the arguments can be settled with one observation:

If this game had been called anything but "Final Fantasy," it would've been lauded to high heaven. I'll bet every penny I have - and will ever earn - that the average critic score would go up by as much as a half a point, and everyone would be fawning all over this amazing new IP. Think about it. Can you imagine if it had really been a new IP? The acclaim would've flowed.

I suppose people might still complain at the extreme linearity during the first 20 hours and the various combat issues (leader dies = game over, inability to use other characters in battle, Auto Battle feels like "RPG Lite," etc.), but...well, would they? Are we not always making comparisons to past installments in the series? How often are we really measuring FFXIII against other RPGs and other titles in general? I will freely admit that the reason I was a little disappointed with FFXIII is because it was a Final Fantasy and my expectations were through the roof. Those expectations were also very specific; they were extremely defined.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- FFXIII is a great game. It just isn't a great Final Fantasy, at least in terms of what the fans expected and desired. Therefore, logically speaking, wouldn't it be safe to say that if FFXIII had held the name of a new IP, that the majority of the Square Enix hate would disappear overnight? Well, that might be a little extreme but even so...my point stands.

Related Game(s): Final Fantasy XIII

Tags: ffxiii, final fantasy xiii, final fantasy, square enix

8/16/2011 9:13:46 PM Ben Dutka

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Comments (93 posts)

FxTales
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 9:50:24 PM
Reply

There's a certain expectation when it comes to a franchise, especially one that's been around for so long. When the decision is made for it to go in a slightly different direction for no legitimate reason it's going to ruffle the feathers of long time followers.

It was a decent game, but for me it didn't come with that wash of Final Fantasy feeling.

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Riku994
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:07:53 PM
Reply

This is all too true.

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Phoenix
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:56:09 AM

As much as I respect ben's opinion, I do have to disagree with him on this 1. XIII is really only a decent RPG, and it's only decent simply cause it's only 1 of a few rpgs we've had this gen. So really, compare it to other series of RPGs from the past, XIII cant even come close to being considered on the same level as most.

I love me some Final Fantasy, and I was shocked to see them kill this 1, however XIII, despite not being what I was expecting from it, is still a bad RPG to its core, with bad level design, bad characters, bad combat system, a not so great story, and having to wait HOURS before you can even start to really play the game. Did it hurt its score being called a Final Fantasy? no doubt, but this game still should have gotten only decent rating at best.

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DeathOfChaos
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:23:31 PM

FFX is where it started to go downhill, though, lol.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:27:41 PM

No. Having to predict what a foolish AI will do in an auto-battle is not an evolution forward from choosing what everyone does. It is a step back because your strategy becomes more simplified and macromanaged. Death with the leader is a step back. Regenerating health is a step back for an RPG. Having the same attack scheme aimed at gaining a stagger instead of using a unique comprehensive plan to win against each individual enemy is a step back.

And no, FFXIII and X don't have the same number of towns because XIII doesn't have any that could be called such and no, X is not nearly as linear. It isn't a series of straight lines, it's a series of explorable areas.

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:11:24 PM

DeathOfChaos,


WTF!?

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AnonymousPoster
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:12:56 PM

The point at which I became completely fed up with the battle system was during a battle when I needed my support characters to cast buff physical/magic defense immediately, yet the AI consistently chose to cast every spell in the world EXCEPT those. While I could have chosen to be the spell caster myself, that would have left the damage dealing, once again, to the completely incompetent AI, so that I would be making zero progress due to that. So, leave the spell casting to the AI: I'm screwed. Do the spell casting myself: I'm screwed. No matter what: I'm screwed.

Taking direct control away from the player was the worst decision they've ever made in the history of Final Fantasy.

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Arvis
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:55:51 AM

"FFX ... had as many towns and cities as XIII does."

This is just patently false. Try not lying next time and your logic will be more persuasive.

-Arvis

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 11:53:51 AM

yeah... either you didn't play either of them or at least one of them. FFXIII had *NO* towns. FFX had a few, the largest and most memorable being Luca.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:34:39 PM

Utter BS.

They weren't "thinking outside the box." They flat out admitted they simply couldn't render all the towns in HD so they couldn't put them in. THAT was BS, too, but they said it.

Yes, technically, there are town and city areas in FFXIII. But as they completely blend into the fabric of the game; i.e., you're forced into the town and forced out of the town, and typically don't have much choice (until you get to Gran Pulse and locate the transport portals), people got a little annoyed.

FFX allowed you to backtrack throughout. And when it gave you control of the airship, it gave you full access to every location.

And because you brought it up, the battle system wasn't an "evolution." It was a DEvolution. We have no control of other characters in battle. The Paradigm System is strategic but it's mostly all based around AI. And when I can quite simply hammer on the X button, choosing Auto Battle, and win 99% of the encounters I'm in, that is NOT complex. It's not an RPG. I set up the strategy, yes, but I do that in all other RPGs, too, and I can also have full control in battle.

They wrenched control away from gamers for the sake of faster, twitchier gameplay. In no way is it better and in no way is it an evolution. And that's that.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/17/2011 12:35:18 PM

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:09:12 PM

Ruta,
your view isn't popular because it's wrong. If you played all the past FF's, went straight through linearly without backtracking ever, and only ever used "attack attack attack", how much did you have to hang back and grind out levels in past FF's to even keep up?!?!

No strategy in past FF's? Are you kidding me? Look at FFXII, for a more recent comparison. I guarantee you, that with your strategy, the boss you barely manage to beat at level 50, I could handle with ease at level 35. I guarantee it. It sounds to me like your only "strategy" in these games is to level up. You clearly have no knowledge on how to get the most out of each character. -Did you even use all the characters available to you?


As for the towns, your definition of "town" is too forgiving. The "towns" in FFXIII are no different than dungeons. There is no difference in that game. Just because the pretty, pre-rendered backdrops are of a city, doesn't mean it qualifies as a town. At least not by the definition I am seeking.

When I say, "town", I'm referring to a safe haven in the world where people live. You can walk up to these people and interact with them. They might give you quests or information. You can go to the armor shop, magic shop, or item shop. etc. etc. etc. You explore these towns, discover people... etc. Naut. was nothing more than a dungeon with non-responsive NPC and pretty backdrop to make it seem like a town. I don't know about you, but I've never visited a city built in a straight line.

I mean... come on... there is ONE... ---ONE--- area in all of FFXIII that looks -kind of- like a town... but you have one, and only one objective. You go from point A to point B. And when it's done? You never visit it again. I can't believe you would use that "town" as an indication you should check towns off your list.


Lastly, somehow referring to people with higher standards as "elitist" is both elitist, as it turns out, and unfair. Why can't people expect the 13th installment in an extremely well known series to live up to the expectations of the first 12? That's just silly to suggest people should do otherwise.

As for FFvXIII, no. I don't believe people will be upset with it. You know why? It's not *supposed* to be a new Final Fantasy. It's a spin off and people are expecting it to be an action RPG. When FFXIII came out, people expected it to be a jRPG called Final Fantasy that stays true to the depth and complexity of past entries. You can't blame them for being disappointed when it didn't do just that. Especially with all the behind the scenes media we hear from their developers.

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:43:23 PM

::adding Ruta to the ignore list::


I suggest you all do the same. It's one thing to be mistaken, it's another to lie/be wrong and refuse to admit it.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:59:40 PM

Sorry Ruta, you're just dead flat wrong. It's not opinion when what you're saying can be proven incorrect by citing obvious facts.

Now you're saying certain things don't matter because YOU don't care about them and they don't affect you?

Yeah, forget it.

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shadowscorpio
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 5:10:44 PM

@ Underdog15

What a beautiful way to close the argument. Accurate and very true as it relates to Final Fantasy 13.

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rm2kmidi
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:19:53 PM

I agree with you Ruta. The battle system was more engaging than previous iterations of the series. It took the cumbersome system that FF12 had and streamlined it. It's all about big-picture strategy and not about control down to each minute detail.

One small complaint. JRPG isn't a genre. Console RPG's made in Japan are the same genre as console RPG's made anywhere else and they make all kinds of RPGs in Japan. Sorry, pet peeve.

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Underdog15
Thursday, August 18, 2011 @ 9:55:46 AM

jRPG is not a genre, yes. It is a sub-genre. It doesn't pertain to "any game made in Japan". The other sub-genres include wRPG, sRPG, and actionRPG.

Not sure why that's a pet peeve. You just don't want to stick to labels things already have.

I'm not sure how FFXIII is even remotely similar to FFXII. It's not similar at all. And it definitely isn't "streamlined". How can it be streamlined?!?! The screen changes and loads when you get into a battle in FFXIII. That's not streamlined. Big picture strategy? lol... FFXII had big picture strategy. It was easier to only control one character, but you could actually build a real strategy with gambits. And if you needed them to do something unique, you could override a command with input of your own... lol, sir. l o l.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/18/2011 9:58:30 AM

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Arvis
Thursday, August 18, 2011 @ 10:29:18 AM

"lol, sir. l o l."

In my mind, I totally read that in Stephen Fry's voice. Epic.

-Arvis

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shadowscorpio
Sunday, August 21, 2011 @ 7:14:33 PM

Ruta, the critisizm is warranted. Just like there are many people who did not like FF13 there were many who did. I hope you're not saying that those who liked it are right and those who did not are wrong or vice versa for that matter.

Everyone is entitled to feel the way they want. Yourself included but everyone's opininon is warranted whether or not people agree with it or not. Thats the kind of site this is. Your comment sounds like you're saying those who do not agree with your view are wrong and that sounds a little bias to me.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 11:16:56 AM

lol Ruta. You are terribly difficult to take seriously. I'm not even sure you're being 100% honest with us here. That much is evident.

If you aren't willing read my complete thoughts, I'm not sure how you feel you are somehow able to make a complete argument to counter what I have said. At least 6 other people whole-heartedly agreed with what I had to say. Is that alone not enough to warrant a read?

Since you are completely incapable of addressing any of my arguments, I'm afraid I must self-proclaim myself the winner of this argument.

Of course, I stopped reading your comment immediately after I read about how you refuse to read mine... I was going to give you the time of day, but quite frankly, you didn't deserve my attention to begin with. You can't even form a complete and whole argument, let alone hold an attention span long enough to understand the entirety of why I made the intro statements I made.

You, sir, are an atrocity when it comes to 2-way discussion. It's probably why you're either still single or are currently in a relationship that will inevitably fail.

And it will fail.

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Dancemachine55
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:19:03 PM
Reply

Call me crazy, but I still haven't played through the whole game. The first hour of it just didn't grab me and hold me like FF's VII, VIII and X did. Got a long way through FF XII, but I just didn't get any further than the first hour of XIII.

Now that I'm playing Ocarina of Time 3D (first time playing a whole Zelda game from start to finish now), FF XIII has to once more go on the waiting list.

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Teddie9
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:24:33 PM

don't worry I couldn't bring myself to finish it either.

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DeathOfChaos
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:25:13 PM
Reply

This is what I said about it from the very moment I started playing it, lol. Glad someone agrees, lol. Terrible Final Fantasy, worst of the series even, but a good game in general. =]

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:11:54 PM

I'd say XI or XIV.

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VampDeLeon
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:26:22 AM

I think XII still holds that title as the dullest

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Neo_Aeon666
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 9:16:10 AM

@ VampDeLeon I agree even though XII had a much better battle system and the prettiest ps2 graphics I found it's story to be the dullest too. Only politics of a world I didn't care about and no love interest. Plus the main character was a kid pain in the butt XD

Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 8/17/2011 9:16:53 AM

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:07:45 AM

I loved XII. It was a nice break from the norm to not have to be saving the entire planet and having the typical romance. I thought it had interesting characters and offered plenty of exploring and fighting. I think it also holds up well with time, I find myself going back to play it above all other FF games.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:50:43 AM

XII was fantastic. It may be my least favorite from a story standpoint (hate anything related to politics), but the gameplay was awesome.

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Neo_Aeon666
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 11:44:00 AM

Yeah like I said the battle system was really good and it looked very nice for a ps2 game. Guess I am just a sucker for cliched romance stories hahaha. In all the other FFs I played there was some goal or main love interest hidden somewhere. Because of this even if I loved the battle system the story didn't keep me going.

Last edited by Neo_Aeon666 on 8/17/2011 11:45:00 AM

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:23:26 PM

You hate anything related to politics, Ben?

Surly FFT is the exception! ;p

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 3:00:08 PM

It is. But that's so heavily rooted in gameplay - even more so than FFXII - I really hardly notice. :)

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shadowscorpio
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 5:20:38 PM

FF 12 was, at least I believe, an awesome Final Fantasy. The depth of exploration was incredible and it wasn't even an MMO. After long hours of complex hunting I finally discovered how to make every monster and boss reveal itself and defeated everyone. Plenty of sidequests, and leveling along with gil and items from battle were all a well implented system.

SE gets a thumbs up from me on this one. I loved the voice acting but will admit it was a departure from past FFs when it comes to the story which I didn't entirely mind but do understand that it wasn't chosure for Final Fantasy. So I get that some people didn't like the story much.

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rm2kmidi
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:23:12 PM

@LimitedVertigo FFXI is by no means the worst. Don't hate on it just because its an MMO. FF14 was rushed to market, so as a product it sucks; but I don't know if today it is the concept they envisioned.

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Cloudface
Saturday, August 20, 2011 @ 2:36:57 AM

FF 12 suffered because they created a character for the sole purpose of appealing to a teen demographic: Vaan. Basch was originally going to be the main character of the game. If you look more into his back-story, it is both quite awesome and quite tragic. I think the reason people think that FF 12's story is so lacking is simply because of the way it was presented. The dialogue was very lofty and impersonal, there wasn't a bunch of weepy, tear-inducing music, and there was an old man's voice interjecting at various points in the game reading out of his journal...which sounded like he was reading out of ye Olde-English history textbook.

The presentation of it and having a lame character like Vaan be the main character (when every other character in the game is 1,000 times more awesome than he is...except maybe Penelo) is what prevented it from being, in my opinion, the best Final Fantasy to date.

Voice acting was also superb compared to Final Fantasy Linear...uh...I mean Final Fantasy X. Every character's voice looked like it should be coming out of the character it was coming out of.

And yeah, gameplay and side-quests aplenty. FF XII is a completionist's dream.

It would have been a completely satisfying game if they would have delved further into the backstories of Basch, Balthier, Fran, and Ashe instead of making us guess it by context clues.

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shadowscorpio
Saturday, August 20, 2011 @ 1:14:40 PM

Very good points Cloud. In fact, amonst the protagonists and antagonists, Vaan and Penelo were the lamest characters. All the adult characters kicked ass in my opinion. I did enjoy how a lot of the story did involve Basch's situation but I agree, they could've dove deeper into the adult character's stories and at least made Vaan and Penelo love interests.

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Hokie
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:26:26 PM
Reply

I've thought this for a while. Sure there were mechanic issues, but I don't think they would have been as dramatically called out if there hadn't been 12 previous titles that didn't have them...

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Temjin001
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:30:35 PM
Reply

I think so, too, Ben.

Similarly, I think Splinter Cell Conviction was a good game, just not a faithful follow up to a long running franchise.

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WorldEndsWithMe
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:31:04 PM
Reply

I think most people would agree with this, and I don't think it is a flaw in the way publications and journalists rate the game just because this is so. You can't score every game is if it exists in a vacuum because it doesn't.

The game take huge steps back in every way except production values.

On an interesting note, I read Square-Enix may be looking to re-brand themselves by dropping the "Enix" Not a bad idea since they died as soon as they absorbed Enix.

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:12:45 PM

I miss SquareSoft

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:50:59 AM

EVERYBODY DOES.

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Dante399
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 4:13:20 PM

@Ruta So you're saying that there is no real Final Fantasy coming in the future as we know it because Sakaguchi had left Squaresoft? He created FF for god's sake! I believe he should go back to Square and leave M$ coz they won't be taking him anywhere.

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Dreno
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:35:05 PM
Reply

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, my ideal of a Final Fantasy, let alone the rpg genre match that of the rest of the FF lovers and rpg lovers of psxe. I would wager that 9 out of 10 times I would agree with anyone on this site about what a FF should be and what an rpg should be.

That being said, I havnt played FFxiii, so I can't really give an opinion. I've been looking for a copy for my ps3, but the wally-world in my city doesn't have it except for the 360, and I don't own one of those anymore. So, as soon as I get my hands on a copy of 13, I'm sure ill be just as dissapointed as the rest of the FF lovers here, and will be able to throw my opinion in the mix.

But, I kind of hope I like it. I'm gonna take some advice from ben, and look at this game like its not a FF. Maybe then, ill see what s-e hoped FF fans would see.

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kylemac6
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:07:12 AM

try amazon

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VampDeLeon
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:40:54 PM

or ebay :p

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DazeOfWar
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 10:56:39 PM
Reply

They could have called it what ever they wanted and I still would have not made it through the boring game. I played through the first 20 hrs all the way to the open area and just gave up. They story just didn't pull me in and never got better in my opinion. I hoped for it to get better but nothing happened for me.

Since I didn't enjoy XIII I definitely won't be putting my money and time into XIII-2. If they did an HD collection of X, X-2, and XII I they would get my money but that's about it.

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LimitedVertigo
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:10:57 PM
Reply

FFXIII isn't just a mediocre FF game it's a mediocre RPG. Sure it's not a bad game and I did enjoy most of what it had to offer but compared to other RPGs it's very RPG-Lite.


Had it been an IP I would have thought SE was adding too many western elements to their games.

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dmiitrie
Tuesday, August 16, 2011 @ 11:57:15 PM
Reply

I'm sure that this is true for a lot of people, Ben, buy I disagree entirely. I'll admit that it has great production values, but I don't just say it's a bad FF, it's a bad game.

I only played for a couple of hours, but I got so frustrated with the lack of control that I just couldn't put any more time into. I don't care what they would or could have called the game, anything with those mechanics won't get more than a few hours of my time. In fact, the Final Fantasy on the cover probably made me spend more time playing than I otherwise would have.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:46:27 AM

A couple hours isn't enough to formulate an accurate opinion of such a huge game. Sorry.

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dmiitrie
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:55:29 AM

You may be right. And, to be honest, I'll probably give it a second try at some point. But the problems I have with it (ie, not being able to control your party, game over if the party leader dies, etc) don't change, unless I've been horribly misinformed.

And in all honesty, I really don't see how it gets such a free pass except for it's name. I've heard time and time again (from people on this site and elsewher) that the game doesn't get good until the 20 hour mark. It's possible that they've all been speaking in hyperbole, but how is 20 hours of mediocre gameplay acceptable?

I understand that some things start slow, so I try to give a game some time before I pass judgement. But with every other game I've ever played (including damn near every Square game since '91), I've been able to tell if the game was good or bad with 2-3 hours. So what is it about this game that makes it deserve more than that?

Last edited by dmiitrie on 8/17/2011 1:57:46 AM

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Lawless SXE
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 3:23:50 AM

It's not just the open world and whatnot, but the Paradigm system. The first twenty hours is to get you used to it, then you are free to use it in anyway you want. If you don't like the system, the game will never work for you, but if you can find and enjoy the depth and strategy within it, then it is well worth your while. But yeah, give it at least ten before giving up.

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Stabs88
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:23:46 AM

@lawless

100% agree. You are correct sir

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:36:52 AM

People make it seem as if nothing happens in the first 20 hours, which of course is greatly exaggerated. Furthermore, when you reach Gran Pulse, it becomes an ENTIRELY different game. It even feels a little different from a combat perspective because so much of the Crystarium has been opened.

The core issues are still there, of course, but they seem less dire after the game opens up.

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SS4
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:40:28 AM
Reply

What killed it for me was that it was a multiplat and they had to make the game smaller and crappier as well as cut down ton of video and content just so it could run on the crapbox.... Now I dont wanna go bashing on a console but the damn multiplat makes games much worse then they could be and M$ lining up the money to get it on their console hurt FFXIII.
The name itself FF, it might need to change if they wont do turnbased game anymore since otherwise they are just milking the name, but they still make good game imo and FFXIII was enjoyable with all said and done...

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shadowscorpio
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:50:11 AM
Reply

FF XI, FF XIII, and FF XIV should not have been named with roman numerals. In other words they should not have been labeled as mothership titles.

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Kabuki
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:08:44 AM
Reply

I don't know why it really matters if the Final Fantasy name is attached to it or not. Regardless, for me, FFXIII was not that great of a game. I would have been disappointed whether it was a Final Fantasy title or not.

I put over 20 hours into FFXIII before I finally gave up because I couldn't stand the battle system and above all I just couldn't get into the story. The characters were lacking depth as well. Sure, the game looks beautiful, but if I can't like any of the characters enough to be concerned about their progress, how can I be expected to care enough to play through the game?

I really tried to get into this game, too, because everyone kept telling me you just have to get through the first 6 hours. And after 20+ hours...I just couldn't stand it anymore...I shouldn't have to go through that much gameplay just to enjoy a game.

I've been really disappointed in Square Enix lately. It irks me that XIII is getting a sequel...I would rather play Versus (preferably before I hit 30, but I'm beginning to think that's not gonna happen). And even then, I hope Versus doesn't let me down like XIII did...

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Lawless SXE
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:27:18 AM
Reply

Hmmm... From a critical perspective, I think that you're right, much in the same way that GT5 would have been consistently lauded if it wasn't called GT. Both series have an incredible pedigree and to see them even slightly tarnished reflects even more over every facet of them.

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___________
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 6:31:45 AM
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so all of the games faults and flaws would magically disappear if it did not have the FF title on it?
congrats that is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard!
sure it would of helped slightly, but that does not mean everyone would of instantly loved it!

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:47:39 AM

"sure it would have helped slightly"

So you agree then! Great!

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Neo_Aeon666
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 9:31:33 AM

Well for my part I wouldn't have even bought it if it wasn't FF. I would have waited for FF to come by lol. And being called FF is what made me endure those 20 hrs of total BS insult to our intelligence. In the end when I was done I really loved taking on those giant humongus dinaus and trying to unlock everything but it still felt like the game was missing so much... Like they gave me a sandwich but there was only HAM no bread, salad or dressing XD

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LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:08:32 AM

Why do you guys still respond to this person?

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___________
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:08:55 AM

key word there being SLIGHTLY!
to say that it only copped all the flack because its a FF game is just silly!
its like saying GT5 only copped the flack because it was a GT game!
that does not take away the fact that it took 6 freaking years to make!
had so much hype you would think it was the coming of christ!
not to mention all the flaws in it, like the standard up res ps2 models, and all the half asked features like the 24 hour races but you cant save midway.
take the GT label away all those flaws dont magically disappear!
and the same thing goes for FFXIII!

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:34:53 AM

I often wonder that myself, LV.

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Excelsior1
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:34:56 AM

careful there blankline. don't you remember that most gamers and critics are not qualified to judge gt5? that's what this site always claims when anybody is critical of gt5. i always found that statement to be arrogant by the way and flat out disagree with it.

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 8/17/2011 10:35:52 AM

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:52:39 AM

Excelsior: And I've already explained why you're wrong. If you can't figure out why a simulator requires more expertise than any random video game, that's your problem. Don't go calling us arrogant when we've given you a hundred different reasons supporting our claim. Apparently, your claim is just that all gamers are car and racing experts.

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Excelsior1
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 11:25:43 AM

i never said you were arrogant. i just find the statement to be arrogant in tone. it called out on its uneven presentation and recycling so much content from gt4. all the other gt games were well received by gamers and critics alike. then, all the sudden they are no longer qualified to pass judgement on the game? i don't get that at all. none of the reasons you guys list can account for that. simple question. why were the past gt games well received by the the gamers and critics alike, and then suddenly on this game they just don't get it?

Last edited by Excelsior1 on 8/17/2011 11:32:12 AM

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 11:56:28 AM

What was recycled from gt4? The racing? The fact there are cars? ...............

yeah. I guess I just don't get what you are saying.

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Excelsior1
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 1:57:10 PM

@underdog

let me more specific. all the non premium cars that were recycled from gt4 with a slight up res. they even recycled some cars from the portable gt game with the same slight up res treatment. gamers got frustrated they could not fully upgrade their favorite cars in the same way as the premium cars and also becuase the cars did not look nearly as good. i honestly think if pd had simply have chosen not to have that non premium/premium split the game would have scored a lot higher. i think it was a poor design choice on pd's part that brought the overall quality of the game down somewhat. it definely seems to be what cuaght the game the most flack. i just don't understand how being a car expert applys to that issue.

it's still a good game, but it was a little uneven in its presentation becuase of pd's poor design choice imo.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:45:21 PM

I see what you mean, Excelsior, but I feel now that the only real way to fix that is to allow full customization for all 1000 cars, but sacrifice the high quality resolution and detail the 200 or so premium cars have.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure such a compromise would remedy the issue, per se. I think it would fix the issue you have with it, and bring up more issues others would take issue with.

You know what I mean?

I guess what I'm saying is that for the simulator GT5 is supposed to be, I'm not sure that issue you raise is a big enough reason to give it a bad rap.

I'm not big into the racing scene, so I don't really have an invested opinion on it. But I know how I feel about White Knight Chronicles, which receives criticism similar to the criticism you give GT5. People have not reviewed WKC for what it is meant to be. And I think a lot of people miss out on a fantastic jRPG experience because reviewers don't review it for being the jRPG experience it is. They review it based on what they think all games should be like. And it's frustrating, because WKC is -SO- much fun for a jRPG fan like me. Best this gen, in fact.

I think that's the opinion you're being confronted by people here. They feel that the criticism you give it is based on the type of racer you feel it should be. Maybe GT5 simply isn't your style, you know? Much like those reviewers should admit that WKC is simply not their style. Because if we're honest, both are actually fantastic at what they try to do. And that's what should matter, in my opinion. Reviewers should simply state who it's meant for. I think PSXE did just that.

But again... racing isn't my preferred genre. I dabble, but it doesn't get as much time from me as others.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 3:02:29 PM

Excelsior: Of course you're calling us arrogant; we're the ones who made that statement. Maybe when you can FINALLY get it through your head that the RACING is all that matters in GT, you'll understand why few gamers are qualified. Real fans of racing get it. Unsurprisingly, the uneducated don't.

Let's just leave it at that.

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Excelsior1
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:27:30 PM

@ben

i get it's about the racing, but that does not mean it can't be judged by gamers and critcs alike becuase they are not car experts. i think the critisms of gt5's uneven presentation and lack of upgrades available on all cars are completly valid. so is the complaint about recycling so much content from gt4.

they did not need1000 cars. they should have just concentrated on a reasonbable amount of premium cars and made them the best they can. if they did that the game would have been much better received. the series is well known for perfection, but pd's choice to split the cars between premium and non premium keeps it from attaining that very perfection by its own design. it's the uneven presentation and customization options available on the cars that drew the most critism. not the simulation aspect. flat out poor design choice imo. when game is uneven like that it just can't be blown off.

when people are being critical of gt5 and you pop in the comments section and say this reminds me why most gamers aren't qualified to judge gt5 i do i find that to be an arrogant statement. i'm sorry that's how i feel about it even though you have very well explained why you feel this way. i want to be clear. i don't think you are arrogant... just this statement itself. you do a great job and i love the in depth writting on this site. i do see where you are coming from on this issue to an extent when people make some whacky comments about gt5, but becuase the past gt games were so well receiived by gamers and critics alike i have trouble accepting that all the sudden they are not qualified to judge gt5. i guess we are just going to have to disagree about this matter. that happens sometimes and it's okay. i still think gt5 is a very good game that i would score around 9 out of 10. anyways, i enjoyed discussing this topic with you. peace.





Last edited by Excelsior1 on 8/17/2011 8:30:41 PM

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Underdog15
Thursday, August 18, 2011 @ 10:01:56 AM

Excelsior, if they didn't need the 1000 cars, they would have been left with the 200 premium cars... where you have complete customization. By your rationale, they should be praised, because in addition to their 200 fully customizable cars, they included an extra 800 just in case your favorite car was left out.

Know what I'm saying?

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Beamboom
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 6:42:39 AM
Reply

Yesterday Underdog experienced a deja-vu, today it's my turn:
I could have *sworn* I've read this article before. It felt like I knew each sentence while I read them. I actually thought I was experiencing a bug at first - an old article getting knocked back on the front page!

This is all been said before, right? Or have I caught the Underdog Disease too?


Last edited by Beamboom on 8/17/2011 6:43:28 AM

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Lawless SXE
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 7:05:14 AM

I'm sure I've read something similar also... So it's not just you this time.

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Excelsior1
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:33:23 AM

yes it has been said many, many times on this site. deja vu indeed.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:53:04 AM

It has been said in the comments section. There was never an article about it.

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kylemac6
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 7:58:03 AM
Reply

This really doesn't need to be said.

Stop trying to analyze it and make excuses for it and write pointless articles about it. Yes, I enjoyed it and do think it's a good game, but it's not a great game whether it's final fantasy or not. ALL of the criticisms still apply.

Do I compare it to past FF games? Sure. Do I also compare it to other RPGs? Absolutely. Why wouldn't I unless FF was the only RPG I had ever played?

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:20:37 AM

...are you even making a point?

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Temjin001
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:40:01 AM

Kyle, the fact that the game carried itself as the next flagship Sqaure title did reflect badly on it. Millions of FF fans got a game toofar removed from what should have been a FF. If it was a new IP with the same structure and play I don't think it'd be inconceivable for the game to have netted a Metacritic average of 88, up 5 points from where it sits now.

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kylemac6
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:17:15 PM

Thanks for asking, Ben. Yes. I thought my point was fairly clear and reading everyone else's posts, it sounds like a lot of people agree. Under a different title as a new IP, it would still be the same game with the same flaws and would still be compared to other RPGs, including everyone's gold standard: Final Fantasy.

I absolutely agree with other people on here saying that if anything, being named Final Fantasy helped it. Whatever it's named, it's still a decent game with lots of flaws that a lot of people wouldn't have enjoyed or made it 20 hours into. Ultimately, it is a matter of opinion because we can't change history to find out, but a lot of people seemingly share this opinion.

I know that I, for one, only have time or money for so many games and wouldn't have paid this game much attention at all if it weren't named Final Fantasy. And that's not because I don't play new IPs, but because of what I saw of it before it was released. Indeed, after it was released, what I read didn't excite me. But it is Final Fantasy and I've played most of the series, so I got it once it was down to the $20 mark. I did enjoy it, but not greatly so for many of the commonly listed reasons, which I look for in any RPG, not just Final Fantasy. No matter what name it went under, it wouldn't change what the game was. The fact that it was called Final Fantasy was the main attribute that determined my ultimate decision in giving it a chance.

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Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 12:38:49 PM

I see. So you just decided to miss the point of the article entirely and make your own point.

Of course the Final Fantasy name helped sell it. That's hardly the issue. And it's entirely untrue that if it was a new IP, it'd be compared to the FF franchise. In my experience, it seems to me that FF is: A. no longer a "gold standard" and B. is never really compared to many other RPGs. Are people comparing Mass Effect and Elder Scrolls to FF? Are they even comparing other JRPGs, like Hyperdimension Neptunia and Atelier to FF? No. Almost never.

The vast majority of the time, the only arguments that surround FFXIII involve other entries in the franchise. People can whine about the flaws but the bottom line is that most of it is in their heads. Most of it is because it's called Final Fantasy. If it had been a brand new IP, it would've been considered a pretty amazing effort, at the very least. How many new IPs are anything like this? I don't think people would say it was as good as FF, but it wouldn't get a fraction of the hate it gets now.

And THAT'S the point.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/17/2011 12:39:43 PM

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SmokeyPSD
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 8:20:37 AM
Reply

I think the opposite, Final Fantasy branding is the one of the few factors that people still actually talk about this game. It really isn't that much to talk about. In terms of meaningful story, gameplay, anything that should make a game standout.

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telly
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 9:49:21 AM
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Emphatically disagree. The gameplay was boring, most of the characters were terrible, the story was nonsensical and poorly told. FF or not, those just aren't the hallmarks of a good game in my mind. The art direction of the game world was pretty cool, if derivative of previous FFs, but that's just not nearly enough. It's fair to wonder if the game may not have been judged as harshly if it didn't have "Final Fantasy" in the title, but SE has no one to blame but themselves for that. They wanted the name recognition that comes with a "Final Fantasy" title, now they have to live with the scrutiny that also follows.

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Broady
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 9:53:56 AM
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personally thought XIII was a brilliant game in its own right, found the linear parts at the start help with the story telling - forgot half the story in VIII the first time round after going for a massive level up session

have to agree with Ben, would have scored higher if it wasn't labelled Final Fantasy

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gumbi
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:32:09 AM
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Ben, you nailed it. I've been saying this exact same thing the whole time. FFXIII was beautiful, somewhat engaging, and had great production values. But it was missing so many elements that I want in my FF games (and any RPG really), and that really hurt it's reception as a Final Fantasy installment.

It should have been labeled something else, and marketed as a hybrid action/RPG. Strip out any of the FF universe references (just rename them really) and label the game as a new IP, I think it would have been better received for sure.

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DrRockso87
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:03:15 PM
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I suppose if it weren't a 'Final Fantasy' game then it may have received better reviews, but honestly in my opinion, I think they could've called it ANYTHING, seriously, ANYTHING else and I would still hate it.

Seriously, I made it to chapter 5 and NEVER want to play that game ever again (it's hilarious how whenever I check my friends' trophies, they all have about 5% - 7% which is where I stopped too).

If it was shunned though for not being a cookie-cutter 'Final Fantasy' game instead of judging by its own merits then that's pathetic. Judge games on how well they play, not because they're not what you're expecting. I played Modern Warfare 2 knowing full well I hate Activision and yet I'll freely admit it's a decent game. I still despise 'Call of Duty' annual releases but I'll admit they're at least quality entertainment.

It's sad how childish some people have become though.

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Beamboom
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:37:07 PM

I don't understand why everyone say it's got so bad reviews. It's got a metascore of 85! That's not bad at all, that's where most very, very good games land!

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Ignitus
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 2:20:49 PM
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I think you are right.

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Radiohead
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 5:30:17 PM
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i only played ff13 for like 2 hours and haven't played it since 7 months ago, the last great final fantasy game was number 9, ff10 was good but not great.

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rm2kmidi
Wednesday, August 17, 2011 @ 10:06:20 PM
Reply

A lot of so-called Final Fantasy fans are not interested in seeing the franchise develop try new things. When I see someone make a comment like "The series really started to go downhill after Final Fantasy #" almost every time, that game was played when they were in their early to mid teens - which is the primary demographic. Of course, a game marketed to teens will still appeal to an older gamer, but I think its foolish to expect to relate a new Final Fantasy in exactly the way you related to your favorite or best experience of the series.

A real fan of the series will be happy to see them try new things and mix up game play elements. There has never been a set format for a Final Fantasy game, and I'm glad for it. I agree, the Final Fantasy name brings lots of unreasonable expectations - but a lot of it is attitude. Don't expect to recreate the great gaming memories from your past.

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Underdog15
Thursday, August 18, 2011 @ 10:11:46 AM

Ask yourself this: What has every Final Fantasy prior to FF13 done that FF12 has not?

It's not that they tried new things. That's always welcome. Every FF has done something new. But there are key elements that are always present. Lastly, the number 1 thing games should -NEVER- do, is take control away from the player.

Dragon Age 2 got the exact same complaints. And EA listened. FFXIII does that. It takes control away from the player. FFXII was a perfect compromise. It did something new, tried new things, and it was great!

But here's the comparisons to what FFXIII did wrong.

FFXII didn't remove exploration. Exploration in FFXII is huge. It didn't limit how you can grow your characters. It didn't take control away from the character. It allowed you to set up as full or as basic a strategy as you wish with gambits. It doesn't say game over when the main character is KO'd. You can switch the leader at any time! It had full sized towns with side quests. It had NPC's to interact with.

All this depth... just... GONE! That's the issue. It isn't new things. Every FF is completely different from the last. But those major features that made it a full game were gone. You have FFXIII... a decent game... but a thin one with barely any meat on it's bones. High production values, but poor design.

THAT'S what fans are bothered by. None of us wanted an experience that was watered down. If you think it's just because we don't like "change", then you're incredibly misinformed. If change was bad, then FF wouldn't even be a good franchise for you. They are -ALL- different.

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shadowscorpio
Saturday, August 20, 2011 @ 1:22:22 PM

Thank you for clarifying that for him Underdog15. I think a lot of people are labeling us whom have been with Final Fantasy for years simply because we were so disapointed with FF XIII. Every FF installment will bring something new . That's a giving and something that we have understood for years.

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Underdog15
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 11:21:41 AM

Thanks man.

It really bugs me when people think it's just because we don't like change. It's really a terrible judgement. It's usually (not always) people who don't really understand the history of the franchise.

Change is what -excites- people about the FF franchise, not what has deterred us. The variety while maintaining it's complexity is what kept us around the last 2 decades.

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swapnilgyani
Thursday, August 18, 2011 @ 1:33:50 PM
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I had never played a Final Fantasy game before XIII, so I had no expectation from it whatsoever.

I had a mixed time with the game - it wowed me and frustrated me in almost equal proportions. That, generally, is not ideal for any game.

Also the fact that after I finished it over a year ago, I haven't even thought about going back for a replay...

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Mari0Br0s
Tuesday, August 30, 2011 @ 2:58:43 PM
Reply

Like the author of this article said, if Final Fantasy would not have been in the title of this game, I beleive the game would have had less criticism. But, I also do beleive that the game should'nt even have been classified as a JRPG.

Final Fantasy or not in the title, it would have had a lot of complain from players who though they were buying a JRPG.

When I got FF13, I was so excited. I had even managed to get it 3 days before launch, from my friend who's working at a local retailer. He also was a fan of the franchise, and he came to my house to watch me play it.

After an hour or so, we looked at each other and we could see a question mark on each other's face. My friend said: "WTF!?", I said: "and I beleived that FFX-2 was bad".

My friend got tired and went home, I stopped playing it and left it on the shelf for 3 months.

3 months later, I had a car accident and had to stay home because my legs were both in plaster, All I could do was watching TV and play video games. Guess what? I gave another shot at FF13. Played a little longer than 15 hours and got bored again. The game was just no fun at all. It went on the shelf for another 6 months. I played White Knight Chronicles instead, a game who appareatly was mediocre according to reviewers, but in facts kicked FF13's ass in my own opinion.

Anyways, 6 months later, here I am, in vacations, nothing to do, give another try to FF13. I made it to Gran Pulse, and, WOW, finally get a little interrested. Did all of the monsters missions that I could and then continued with the story. As soon as I continued the story, the fun just went away. I was minded to finish as fast as possible the game so I could return to Gran Pulse finish all the monsters missions. The story didn't appeal me at all.

Once I finished the story, went back to Gran Pulse and got addicted to the missions again. Managed to get 82% of PSN trophies, which isn't bad, for someone who hated the game. The missions were actually the only challenge in the game.

Here's a nice ACCURATE review of FF13: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2z7vHsqq_Q

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