Why Can't Microsoft Fans Correctly Assess Sales Figures?

Deathb4Dishonor
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:21:43 PM
Reply

Of course they'll sell more than anything.... In all honest truth, Gears series and Halo is the only thing Microsofts' got going for them... And Alan Wake but i don't think that franchise will stay exclusive for long

5 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:25:14 PM

I think MS has done well this generation because they did a few things right that have little to nothing to do with making good games.

18 up, 0 down

godsman
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:01:00 PM

Xbox fanboys only know one thing: shooter games. If they were given a choice between shooting or girls, they probably choose to shoot the girls.

16 up, 2 down

Helghast
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:29:31 AM

@Godsman
Thumbs up for making me laugh.

2 up, 1 down

theReigen
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 3:23:56 PM

a single alan wake game is not a franchise

0 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:23:50 PM
Reply

Ben is aaaa venting!

I'm too old to care about numbers anymore, I'm just happy the PS3 is doing well enough to exist and that Sony continues to give me what I want from gaming (great games).

Just ignore the BS Ben, which I'm sure you do for the most part.

38 up, 0 down

Xombito
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:44:32 PM

Exactly how I feel.

1 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:35:20 PM

He might be reacting to the psychos who didn't like his youtube episode that clearly showed 360 has barely any exclusives to speak of, let alone compared to the PS4's library.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 2:36:02 PM

1 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:14:07 PM

World: I actually haven't heard any backlash from that. Besides, it had to be done.

5 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:48:35 PM

We had a 360 fanboy in here a bit ago that was upset, then there's youtube comments. But I know you are too busy to read ALL comments.

1 up, 0 down

maxpontiac
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:54:00 PM

I am right with you Vertigo. I don't care anymore. I have the PS3 and it works just fine for me.

3 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:15:31 AM

That's the right attitude, LV.
I totally agree. What does it matter, really, as long as we get what we want from it. That's what it's all about.

Excellent post.

6 up, 0 down

Underdog15
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:25:04 PM
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The comments on that link you provided are ripping the author to shreds. People see through such ridiculousness when it's that extreme. The author used Left for Dead 2 as if it were a 360 exclusive. lol

I'm not worried about it.

5 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:27:13 PM

Always hated the argument that a game not on the PS3 is automatically a 360 exclusive even if it's on the PC as well. I'm a perfect example of how wrong that is. I own a majority of these so called "360 exclusives" for the PC and I haven't had a 360 for close to 3 years.

16 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:01:58 PM

I have to say, now that I have gaming capable laptop again, 360's world has all of sudden become a lot smaller.

8 up, 0 down

Claire C
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:14:36 PM

The commenters were awesome! lol

4 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:40:57 PM

lol, yeah, I checked the comments too. Some hilarious stuff there.

2 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:26:30 PM

Do people count DC Universe Online as a PS3 exclusive?

If the logic of 360 fans is anything to go by, then yes, DC Univserse Online is a PS3 exclusive. :P

0 up, 0 down

PasteNuggs
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:26:17 PM
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That has always been my point about the software. The ps3 consumer base has such diverse tastes and we are rewarded with diverse games so we don't all have to buy the one exclusive that is coming out this year.

5 up, 0 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:28:00 PM

Sony & PS3 = a large supermarket. MS & the 360 are a deli..lol

Last edited by SoulController on 8/24/2011 4:28:25 PM

5 up, 1 down

WolfCrimson
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:34:12 PM
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You know, I invented a saying for a situation similar to this: "The bray of a donkey is like music to other donkeys."

2 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:37:43 PM

I feel I should say something about Shrek

2 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 9:55:46 AM

That'll do, donkey. That'll do.

2 up, 1 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:46:56 PM
Reply

The 360 is the poorest engineered gaming hardware in exisestence. Seriously, they're now the first system provider that would have me avoid a launch model because I can't trust the quality of it's design.

12 up, 1 down

Claire C
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:13:49 PM

Good point. Even if the Xbox 720 intrigued me a little I wouldn't be caught dead buying it at launch. =P

6 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:30:32 PM

I have to say, if I'm not making bank by then, there's no way I could buy it either. At least until a consesus is formed that the hardware isn't garbage.

EDIT: yeah I have a thing today for saying " I have to say"
=p

Last edited by Temjin001 on 8/24/2011 1:32:04 PM

0 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:24:52 PM

With MS, I always wait 2 years for them to work out the kinks.

So glad I waited with the 360. 3 of my friends have gone through 3 consoles each now, and they bought theirs in the first few months of release.

Same goes with me. Next Xbox will be a 2 year wait before purchasing.

3 up, 0 down

Oxvial
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 12:58:05 PM
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Typical bragging rights situation, better don't care about that.

Some MS fanboys luv to brag about the success of Kinect over move, and one minute later complain at how much MS focus on the Kinect instead of doing hardcore games, lol.

12 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:42:26 PM

All the "sales" of Kinect prove is how good MS is at marketing/giveaways. The honeymoon is over now though and people realize it's an expensive dust collector.

8 up, 1 down

Oxvial
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:10:17 PM

This comic was very prophetic at that.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=294

3 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:50:29 PM

lol

0 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:01:00 AM

Haha, that's amazing.

0 up, 1 down

Crabba
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 7:48:38 PM

lol, hilarious!!

0 up, 0 down

jimmyhandsome
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:13:49 PM
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Wasn't really expecting to see this type of fanboy rant on this website. Fanboys are dumb no matter what system they support. Who cares about sales figures? People who appreciate the GAMES certainly don't go showboating sales figures around. No offense but making editorials like this isn't much better than what MS fanboys do.

12 up, 13 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:35:33 PM

Evaluating how the industry assesses sales figures and assigns 'success' is a valid subject for analysis though.

11 up, 6 down

Underdog15
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:48:48 PM

Yeah, I'm with Highlander here 100%. There's a difference between starting up a flame war without provocation, and making commentary on how the journalism of the industry evaluates success.

I'm not sure it's wise never to challenge such a lack of foresight, as Ben did, if any of us hope for a little more journalistic integrity in the industry.

If you are so much against fanboyism, shouldn't you also consider such critiques a move in the right direction? It seems to me you are fighting against exactly what you stand for.

We have voices for a reason.

Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/24/2011 1:49:30 PM

8 up, 4 down

jimmyhandsome
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:58:45 PM

I'm not fighting against anything, just making an observation. Fanboyism isn't going away no matter what arguments you bring to the table. Arguing with fanboys or presenting facts is pointless as they constantly defy all things logical. Ben's rant seems directed at fanboys more so journalism or "the way the industry is headed".

8 up, 5 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:44:18 PM

YOU come up with something meaningful to editorialize every friggin day. GAH!

Besides, I think I know where Ben is coming from after years of reading his stuff because I'm the same way. When people are wrong and keep on talking, they need to be TOLD they are wrong.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 2:46:34 PM

13 up, 6 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:16:41 PM

jimmy: Don't be so sensitive. It's an editorial and I AM allowed to have an opinion. Constantly focusing on the word "fanboy" is your own problem; I never mentioned the word in the article, and I'm only referring to those who misconstrue sales data, which is often misrepresented by various sources.

You're just desperately trying to find drama where there isn't any and unfortunately, we've all been taught to do that due to the childishness of the gaming community.

20 up, 6 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:46:24 PM

@jimmy Damn bruh. Owned..

8 up, 6 down

jimmyhandsome
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:41:34 PM

I guess I just don't see the point of addressing these idiot "microsoft fans" (not fanboys) with an editorial. Its not like they're going to be enlightened.

Dog days of summer, I guess.

Last edited by jimmyhandsome on 8/24/2011 4:42:00 PM

5 up, 3 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:25:18 PM

With that attitude, everything written about groups of people who won't change is pointless.

...goodbye to all political pieces.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/24/2011 6:10:55 PM

6 up, 3 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:52:23 PM

I do think the media exists in part to call the culture into question.

3 up, 3 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:21:52 PM

jimmyhandsome

I thought it was a good, thought-provoking article, and one that makes for interesting conversation in the comments section.

Are you aware this is a Playstation-centric site too?

I'm with Ben and Highlander here, 360 sales numbers seem to be all the 360 fanboys have to throw in Playstation fans faces. There's hardly any quality exclusives, Gold subscriber numbers are woefully low compared to frequent PSN users, yet console sales and exclusive title sales are higher? Good question to investigate why this is.

360 is lacking exclusives, whereas Sony is flooded with them. Does not surprise me one bit that 2 or 3 AAA exclusives sell more on 360 than, say, GT5, Uncharted 2 or God of War 3. However, take all sales of PS3 exclusives and compare them to sales of 360 exclusives. You might notice PS3 exclusives have higher sales all up, they're just spread over more games than the few 360 exclusives.

1 up, 3 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:25:40 AM

@Dancemachine: The 360 guys keep nagging about the sales numbers just like the PS3 guys keep nagging about the exclusives. Nothing new, nothing will change and best thing is just to ignore it.
I'm with Jimmy and LV here.

4 up, 0 down

jimmyhandsome
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 8:49:04 AM

"Are you aware this is a Playstation-centric site too?"

No, I wasn't. Thanks for the update though.

Like Beamboom said, its a never ending cycle of idiotic behavior that should just be ignored...

MS fan: "lolz, ps3 exclusives don't sell as well as xbox exclusives!!"
Sony fan: "oh, yea well thats because you guys have 2 good games!!!"

7 up, 2 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:01:52 AM

*facepalm*

2 up, 2 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:22:49 PM

I don't normally put stock into downvotes, but I'm just trying to figure out what idiot could disagree with World's comment about media calling culture into question. Grass is green, the sky is blue, and World is 100% right. Who in the world could disagree with that statement?

*insert bewildered facial expression here*

Last edited by Underdog15 on 8/25/2011 1:24:05 PM

1 up, 3 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:14:00 AM

hahaha, now there's 3 idiots

0 up, 0 down

WYO1016
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:21:58 PM
Reply

My 360 has yet to die on me, but it doesn't get a whole lot of use. Mass Effect, Gears, and Alan Wake are the only things it's ever been turned on for.

3 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:15:24 PM

Same here.

Only play 360 when friends are online or simply to play Alan Wake, Gears 2 or Fable II.

1 up, 1 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:32:01 PM
Reply

Ben,

Here's an exercise that will shut them up.

Find out how many Xbox 360s claim to have been sold at the end of the last reporting period - total lifetime sales. Next, find out how many Xbox Live subscriptions there are (both Silver and Gold included). Next, find out how many Gold subscribers there are (they're the only ones that can play online).

It goes something like this for the end of FY11 (*);

53 million units sold (lifetime)
36 million XBL subscriptions
15 million (or so) Gold subscriptions.

* I haven't looked up the exact figures, I remember the rough numbers from a previous search I did, but the exact numbers may vary slightly. The order of magnitude and relationship between the three figures is correct however.

Yes, less than 30% of all Xbox360s sold *ever* are actively connected for online play.

Let that sink in for a moment. Compare that to the sales numbers on the 360 for Halo (multi-player online) and Call of Duty. Then start looking at the sames of games that are predominantly single player on the 360.

Now shake your head in disbelief.

You can do the same exercise for the PS3, the numbers go something like;

51 million sold
43 million consoles online (according to 3rd party research)
77 million PSN accounts (Sony's figure from the PSN hack about the number of accounts affected).

Every one of those 43 million PS3s has the potential to play online, that is 85% of all PS3s ever sold.

Now look at the strength of games with predominantly single player content on the PS3, and nod with understanding.

The 360, for all the statistical prowess is hiding a secret. Even with the huge acceleration of sales numbers for consoles, the number of XBL accounts of any kind has not kept pace with the number of 360s sold, and the number of Gold subscribers lags even further behind that. If we're supposed to believe that online gaming is the bee's knees, then why are fewer than 30% of all 360s ever sold in a position to play online? The 360 is/was billed as *the* console for online and *the* console for online multi-player shooters. Yet look at the reality.

I don't see why anyone would conclude that online multi-player was the almighty in view of those simple facts. Seriously, if people want to start assessing sales figures there are a lot of interesting things behind the headline sales numbers.

Last edited by Highlander on 8/24/2011 1:32:33 PM

30 up, 6 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:52:52 PM

I should point out, before anyone concludes that I am simply plucking numbers from thin air, I am not. I have previously researched this subject. I don't have those numbers to hand, and don't have time to do the digging again right now, so I am going by memory. The numbers are roughly correct, and the overall point remains the same.

18 up, 2 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:28:59 PM

Not to disagree but to offer what i think are valid comsiderations, I have 4 PSN accounts. Each has it's own region. I also suspect competitive gamers spastically generate new PSN accounts to try and refresh their win/loss rating.
I say this cause I suspiciously encounter a lot of Tekken players who ONLY have Tekken trophies with names like "experi-Paul" or something

Last edited by Temjin001 on 8/24/2011 2:31:19 PM

1 up, 3 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:51:21 PM

Temjin I think that inflated 77 million PSN accounts number takes you into account as opposed to "consoles online" (presupposing these numbers are close and I tend to beleive highlander) because a console is either online or not no matter how many PSN accounts are on it.

The valid considerations I offer to Highlander's 30% for 360s online is that it would be higher given the many millions of dead systems and banned systems. Higher percentage among living systems, but fewer actual new "sales" to add to their number that supposedly makes it the "winnner" this gen.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 2:54:11 PM

10 up, 0 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:57:59 PM

Temjin,

Yes, that's why the connected console figure is more important than the obviously inflated number of PSN accounts. Though, in multiple gamer homes, there can easily be multiple legitimate accounts, and since they are free, there is no reason not to create them, unlike XBL.

The number of active, connected consoles though is valid, and makes the point on it's own when compared to the 360.

Worlds, the dead and banned systems invariably result in replacement purchases of 360s which is I believe why the total number of XBL subscribers lags behind the number of console units sold. Silver is free, and gets system updates downloaded. I feel like it's fair to say that all 360s should have at least one Silver XBL account defined on them. Since we know from Microsoft's own figures that the number of XBL accounts falls short of the number of consoles sold by approximately 17 million, you have to wonder what about those 17 million 360s? Even assuming a 10% failure rate with the PS3, 51 million units sold leaves about 46 million active, 43 million are confirmed by 3rd party research as active installed units connected to the Internet.

Either way if 85% of all PS3s are connected to the Net, isn't it reasonable to expect that a similar percentage of 360s would be connected? If 85% of all 360s ever sold were actively connected and installed, there would be about 45 million XBL silver accounts (assuming one active account per console). If you assume that some households have more than one gamer who might have ab XBL account, then that number of XBL accounts should be even higher. But, it's not. If you figure a 30% failure rate (the often quoted failure rate for 360) of 360s over the product life, 53 million units translates to more or less 17 million dead ones. Which so happens to be the approximate shortfall between units sold and XBL accounts.

Now, I'm sure that some owners of both PS3 and 360 consoles have them without a network connection, so there is a grey area in the figures. That said, if you accept that 85% of PS3 owners have their unit connected, why is it invalid to assume the same connection rate among 360 owners? I think it is valid, and when I take that into consideration, I have to wonder why the XBL subscription numbers are so *very* low...

Last edited by Highlander on 8/24/2011 3:08:10 PM

10 up, 2 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:05:42 PM

Yeah, my mistake. I misread it being online consoles ;)

1 up, 0 down

Fane1024
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:07:17 PM

Also, "PSN accounts" includes those made by PSP-only users.

More importantly, people also create multiple accounts (silver, at least) on XBL and the total is still less than the number of systems sold. The number of now-dead 360s may well be 50% of the total sales.

Highlander ninja'd me a bit with his edit.

Last edited by Fane1024 on 8/24/2011 3:10:50 PM

0 up, 0 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:21:59 PM

Sorry about that Fane, but yeah, the number of PSN accounts does include some PSP users. That said, there is a good deal of overlap between people with a PSP who bother to get a PSN account and those with a PS3. Of course if you have a PS3, you use the same account...

But yeah, IMHO, all those exceptions nibble at the edges of the numbers in positive and negative ways that ultimately cancel each other out and leave to point standing clear. There is a huge shortfall between the number of 360s ever sold and the number of XBL users of any kind.

3 up, 1 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:02:18 PM

Great reading all of your comments. The hell if I'm getting involved.

9 up, 2 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:13:40 PM

Highlander,

Live was the revolutionary king of online gaming for the original Xbox and for the 360 in 2006 and 2007.

When PSN updated and finally cemented itself as a quality online network around late 2007, early 2008, Live was head and shoulders above up until that point.

With continuous updates and improvements, PSN is almost rivalling Live Gold, and PS Plus is now offering more gaming services with Cloud-based saving and auto-trophy updating, AND free games for subscribers!!!

Only thing missing is cross game chat, which sadly won't be coming to the PS3. Lately, however, I've found chatting to be highly annoying with some friends while playing online, and even playing on my own I don't wanna chat at all!! Being able to chat while playing the same game on PSN is good enough for me. Sadly, it's not good enough for my friends and many 360 fanboys, and that is why 360 will continue to "look like" the quality online service.

1 up, 0 down

Cole
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:34:53 PM
Reply

Does anyone else find it odd that Sony ,which is commonly seen as a hardware company, makes better games than MS, the software company?

16 up, 1 down

Lawless SXE
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:15:48 PM

Not really. Sony actually buy studios that make games and put them to making games, as well as outsourcing, as opposed to MS, who just snatch up timed DLC and get their studios to do Kinect games and rehashes.

5 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:55:22 PM

I like your point Cole, but you also have to bear in mind that MS makes, and has always made, horsesh*t software. This is why it galls technology persons that MS and windows are at the head of the pack: they aren't even close to the best.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 2:56:00 PM

12 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:12:26 PM

Where I'm from MS isn't known to be good for either, software or hardware =p

10 up, 0 down

Clamedeus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:38:42 PM

Now that's the truth Temjin. :D

0 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:03:03 PM

Packing DOS or Windows with every IBM computer in the 80's was the biggest stroke of genius that propelled MS to where they are today.

It's not quality products that got them where they are. It's just smart business decisions.

Last edited by Dancemachine55 on 8/24/2011 7:04:05 PM

2 up, 0 down

Lawless SXE
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 1:53:48 PM
Reply

Don't forget that they also love to cite the fact that the 360 has a higher attach rate than the PS3 and that most multiplatform games sell better over there. It's because they have nothing else to play. They don't have the incredible array of exclusive games that the PS3 does. I don't much like to bother with them anymore, they bore me.

Oh, and Forza 4 should be a good *game*. And Halo Anniversary is their other big exclusive this year. Yay?

2 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:01:57 PM

:sigh: haven't head the old "attach rate" thing in a long time. I was glad to see it go. So bothersome.

0 up, 0 down

Fane1024
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:23:38 PM

I looked closely at the numbers years ago (before console sales were more even) and even then the majority of multi-platform games sold roughly the same number of units on PS3 and 360 or sold *significantly better* on PS3.

The only games which sold significantly better on 360 were a few high-profile games (mostly from Activision) like COD and GH, but they did sell *significantly* better.

In other words, the contention that multi-plats sell better on 360 has been BS since 2008 or so and is undoubtedly even less true today.

2 up, 1 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:00:11 PM

It's only selling better in the US.

I dunno why, but the US seems to have this anti-Sony frame of mind lately, while the rest of the world, especially Japan, love and even embrace all things Playstation!!

Is it because MS is an American-based company and US people are proud citizens who only buy US made things?

If that IS the case, it's a little sad that people don't just go for the better product, regardless of what country it's made in or what country the company is based. We are living in a globalised market now.

Don't let blind nationalism fool you. If the better product is made in the US, I'll buy it. If the quality product is Japanese, I'll buy that. I thought the Japanese made PS3 was the better product, so I got that. My friends peer pressured me into joining them on 360, but I found Live was a quality American-based service.

Sorry, rant done now.

Last edited by Dancemachine55 on 8/24/2011 7:01:06 PM

2 up, 0 down

VampDeLeon
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 9:57:21 PM

Microsoft has more money to spend on advertising, lately I'm more likely to see Xbox Kinect commercials more than PS3. The only time I see PS3 commercials is whenever my step-dad has ESPN or sports related channel on. The thing is Xbox's popularity also goes by word of the mouth, after Sony 'screwed up' during launch it became more easier to pick on them.

Never mind Xbox's failing hardware, no one seems to care about that for some reason. Like with how the PS2 had disc reading errors. Despite Xbox being superior to PS2 it still didn't succeed that well, people still refer to PS3 as expensive cause of this. The only people who realize this is those who care to research sadly.

0 up, 0 down

matt99
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:02:00 PM
Reply

haha, that article linked is hilarious, the writer actually claims that halo 3 is innovative...it's been the same game for 10 years!

Or how he compares uncharted to Gears of war...

Anyways I was relieved when I read the comments section and saw everyone calling the author out as a fanboy and a hack writer.

4 up, 1 down

CheddarClyde
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:08:12 PM
Reply

Maybe it's the conspiracy theorist in me, but I sometimes wonder how much influence Microsoft themselves have when numbers are spun like this. Any company that is in direct competition with another company can spin their numbers to make themselves look successful as it is a common business practice. However, when a company has partnerships with a number of news organizations and god knows who else that they use to put those numbers out without full disclosure, it becomes downright manipulative (I know, news period is always manipulative). I'm not accusing Microsoft of anything as I don't have proof (and never will on anything like this), but being a video game player since 1980 I can honestly say that this generation is the first time I've even seen so much misplaced hate directed towards a console by more than just the fanboys.

As for the whole "XBox exclusives sell better than PS3 exclusives", I do agree with Ben since it is the "you starve someone long enough and they will eat anything good or bad" scenario. I also believe that we may never have our own "Halo" on the PS3 simply because our gaming tastes are so diverse that you're never going to get that large of a concentration of gamers on ONE game. Playstation has always been about diversity from the start and that's a good thing. Hell, the biggest selling PS2 game of all time happened to be a game that took multiple genres of gaming and combined into a genre we now called sandbox.

Sorry for the long post and I hope I didn't break any rules. Long time fan, first time poster.

17 up, 0 down

BikerSaint
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:13:25 PM

CheddarClyde,
Just wanted to say "Welcome to PSXE"....
And nice post!

5 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:16:33 PM

Get a pic, then we do business.

4 up, 0 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:23:28 PM

Welcome. nice post BTW. Oh, and if there are rules about comment length, I have long since broken them.

7 up, 0 down

CheddarClyde
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:54:30 PM

Thanks guys. Good to be here.

6 up, 0 down

Oxvial
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:08:15 PM

Welcome Chedda!

2 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:20:38 PM

So Chedda, whose the Heihachi wannabe in the space suit?

1 up, 0 down

Claire C
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:30:21 PM

I love Aqua Teen Hunger Force =D

2 up, 1 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:49:59 PM

Okay, we're doing business now. Welcome to the greatest gaming community I've ever known.

4 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:54:18 PM

Welcome.

4 up, 1 down

Clamedeus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:42:53 PM

Welcome! :D

2 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:54:01 PM

Welcome to the PSXextreme family!!!

1 up, 0 down

CheddarClyde
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 9:36:41 PM

@Temjin001. It's Dr. Weird from Aqua Teen... or Aqua Unit now so it seems.

0 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 11:56:45 PM

Aqua Teen who? Nah, nah, I'm pretty sure he's this Heihachi guy in my avatar =)

1 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:28:03 AM

Yeah, welcome!

0 up, 0 down

BikerSaint
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:10:11 PM
Reply

I find it absolutely humorous that once you go to that story linked above, that if you'll also look to the R/side menu, they also have another article called......
"Are Games Getting Too Big For Discs?"

(Saint's footnote: Well, no wonder why. MS still uses a system of lesser Discabilities)

4 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:04:03 PM

Discabilities, I like that, can I use that?

2 up, 0 down

BikerSaint
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:18:48 PM

Sure thing, World....

But just make sure you always use it's stand-together word partner "lesser" right in front of it whenever talking 360 jive.

0 up, 0 down

TrophyHunter
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:23:38 PM
Reply

I have a 360 too but every time I turn it on i'm really scare it gives me some RLOD's so i almost never play it

1 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:05:13 PM

Seems like more and more multi-system owners just use their 360 for exclusives to avoid its demise. Since that's once or twice a year no biggie.

1 up, 0 down

MadKatBebop
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:07:29 PM

Lol! I was tripping about that too for awhile with mine before the disc drive started to act all weird, then it got the RLOD! only had it for 18 months to. Had my PS3 for 2 years and a month, still works like the first day I got it!.

1 up, 0 down

79transam
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:42:57 PM
Reply

For what it's worth I have a first edition 360 and it's still running, though I don't play it as much as I used to guess I was one of the lucky ones. Main reason I have a PS3 is because it was given to me and the only game I have played that I could not "live" without is MLB The Show. I actually think sports games in general run better on the 360 (Madden, NHL) I just started playing Uncharted and it's fun but not specticular to me, maybe I need to play it more. The biggest draw for the PS3 for me is that it plays blurays. Now if I could only own 1 it would be the PS3 because of the Bluray and free online play. When the 720 and PS4 come out I'm sure I will eventually own both, but will probably start with the PS4

7 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:06:48 PM

I suppose it depends on your tastes, but if you can't find something you love to pieces in the PS3 exclusive library, it don't exist.

3 up, 0 down

79transam
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:20:49 PM

Forgot about God of War, Love that game so add that to my list. Primarily on consoles I play FPS, Sports, Button Mashers like GOW and Force Unleashed, Batman Arkham Etc. I use my PC for sims such as Silent Hunter, KA50, and Falcon 4.0 Like I said I'm playing Uncharted right now and id give it like a 7.5 it's fun and the story is cool but given everything I have heard about the game it's kind of underwhelming at the moment. Maybe it gets better?

0 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:52:32 PM

It does when you buy Uncharted 2 :)

0 up, 0 down

79transam
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:00:53 PM

Well good thing I bought uncharted 2 also

2 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:56:00 PM

Good deal, the sequel is similar gameplaywise (without that sixaxis stuff though) but is just much more compelling in every other way. You have a stealth portion, there are more locations, more intrigue in the storyline and more characters that flesh out the world. And of course the graphics, animations, and physics have improved. Hopefully it will make a fan out of you, but not every thing is for every body.

And don't sleep on inFamous 2 if you don't already have it.

1 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:43:09 PM

I was rather unimpressed about the Uncharted games too, 79transam. Way, way too much on rails for my taste. So not all PS3 owners are overexcited about those games - we are in the minority though... ;)

inFamous is the best ps3 exclusive I've played.

It was the blu-ray drive that made me choose the ps3 too btw! :)

Last edited by Beamboom on 8/25/2011 1:44:54 PM

0 up, 1 down

JDC80
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 2:59:53 PM
Reply

My cousin has already been through 3 360 in the past 13 months. He gave one away, someone stole his elite and right now he got a skeleton 360 just the system without the memory.
I experience trouble with my PS3 twice one cuz my PS3 40GB were from that Christmas patch that experience blu-ray drive trouble and 4 years later the disc tray got jammed.

As for sales: They depend on two series and they treat COD as a 360 exclusive. At least with the PS3 it has a strong list of exclusives that you can play along with the multi-platform games.

3 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:08:15 PM

um...ahh...yahuh... PS3's don't have disc trays.

7 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:53:17 PM

um...ahh...yahuh... PS3's don't have disc trays.

7 up, 0 down

TrophyHunter
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:27:13 PM

Indeed

0 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:29:47 AM

I'm not sure what the definition of a "disc tray" is but I've had a disc jammed in whatever it is that's holding it in the ps3 too.

Last edited by Beamboom on 8/25/2011 1:30:08 AM

2 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:15:28 AM

Not a tray, though, is it?

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:12:42 PM
Reply

ALRIGHT, now that I've commented on all of your posts lets see if there's anything left to say...nope. J/k

The competition's fans kind of have to hang on to whatever they can because they know they got nothin'. They require a reason to, in the face of facts, continue to claim superiority because contrition is not a thing that abides in them.

Like a woman who spreads her legs for a dirtbag and then convinces herself she must be in love to make previous actions okay, these fans will continue to justify supporting a company that doesn't care about them and a system made out of melted down legos and tinfoil.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 3:13:30 PM

9 up, 3 down

Fane1024
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:37:10 PM

Clearest example I've seen: the claim that M$ "cares about its users enough to secure timed-exclusivity on DLC" (e.g., COD maps). So, M$ wastes money that could have been spent on game development in order to get you DLC *the same day* you would have gotten it otherwise and that somehow shows they "care for" you?

Battered wife syndrome.

5 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:52:41 PM

Your last paragraph won me over.

Just saying

2 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:18:52 PM
Reply

All: Don't bother responding to A2K78's posts. He's been ban-dodging for a while now, so I'll just be deleting any new posts he makes.

6 up, 3 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:52:08 PM

Damn you Ben! I had a pretty damn good reply to his comments regarding my comments about Deathb4's comments!

4 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:54:53 PM

Yeah, sorry. I'm just sick of his crap.

5 up, 3 down

maxpontiac
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:59:17 PM

Bummer. I always look forward to A2K78's posts.

/sarcasm

4 up, 1 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:04:11 PM

I prefer his existence more than that Jdog bastard.

5 up, 0 down

Ignitus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:18:53 PM

His comments weren't really that bad, were they?

I mean they could only bother someone if that someone could feel they were true, other wise what gives?

5 up, 3 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:26:14 PM

Nothing to do with recent comments. Was banned a long time ago for other reasons and last I checked, constantly changing your IP address and ban-dodging is against all policy.

7 up, 3 down

Helghast
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 3:58:26 PM
Reply

I agree that the hardware sales numbers are skewed. Most of my friend that are or should I say were 360 fans have had several consoles, brand new ones because they think that the refurbished ones would break easier. I know someone, who is really my last good friend that has not switched to PS3 yet, who is on their 7th 360. Technically only five died but he currently has two working. He is rich and just buys a new one each time because he doesn't want to wait for Microsoft to send him a refurbished one. He has spent all that money for seven 360's and yet I cant get him to spend even $249 for a PS3.

0 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:05:08 PM

Cut the dead weight. I've lost friends due to gaming, no lie.

6 up, 0 down

BikerSaint
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:26:56 PM

Helghast,

If he's a buddy who's that rich, hell, he should be buying YOU a 2nd PS3.

2 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:58:47 PM

He's rich and can't drop $250 on a PS3? What a fanboy. If I was rich I wouldn't mind replacing tons of 360s, as I am not though, I will settle for 0 of them.

6 up, 0 down

Helghast
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:09:55 AM

@World
You know the funny thing? He wanted me to sell him MY PS3 for cheap and he wanted me to use the money to buy a 360 to play online with him, I of course said no. He has even offered to buy me a 360, but when I accepted he asked if I would play Gears with it, I said no because I don't like Gears, so he decided not to buy the 360 for me.

0 up, 0 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:05:14 PM
Reply

This is a legitimate debate that needs to be addressed throughout the rest of the gaming world. Kotaku, ign, GameSpot & whatever other 360 leaning gaming website should try growing up for a sec & address this issue.

Any true gamer this gen knows of or has experienced the 360 hardware issue multiple times so let's stop kidding ourselves. How else do we expect to get respect from other industries if we keep up with the bs..

6 up, 0 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:11:58 PM

What I don't get is after my 360 died back in 08 I gave up on the system due to the shoddy hardware and lack of games that interests me. The main reason I bought a 360 was for the new Banjo Kazooie game (ya bash me all you want, I love the series) and was appalled at how bad the game was. Why don't more people do the same and give up on the 360?

I've been very pleased with my PS3s and have since owned multiple PS3s that haven't died while my 360friends waste their money.

Last edited by LimitedVertigo on 8/24/2011 4:12:28 PM

8 up, 0 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:38:27 PM

I think it mainly has to do with xboxlive & what not.

Example, one of my friends is a hardcore gamer through & through. He owns every system ever made & for this generation, the majority of games he owns are on the 360 because he wants to keep his gamertag higher than his friends.

This may be a just me because the rest of our mutual friends mainly game on PS3

Last edited by SoulController on 8/24/2011 4:39:18 PM

1 up, 2 down

Ignitus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:12:43 PM
Reply

Not only the 360 exclusives sell well most multiplat's sell better on that platform too.

BTW, I have 4 PSN acounts; 1 for NA, 1 for Europe, 1 for Asia and the one for my country.

I must say this because I see some people here think that when the 360 dies you are on your own and must buy a new one. This is false.

I'm on my third 360 and I have only paid for one. MS acknowledged the problem and replaces them free of charge. I didn't even have to pay for shipping costs.

Give them a call, they send you a mailing box, put the dead 360 in, ship it for free and in 4-5 business days you get a new one, and they ever trow in a live gold card for free.

I'm impressed with this level of suport and I wish SONY had done the same with my PS2 disc read error, (even after it was a known defect).

Next gen, I might consider buying the next Xbox. The first one was rock solid and it is still runing fine to this day and if the new xbox next has a high failure rate I know from personal experience that MS stands behind it's game's console. But let's see how next gen unfolds.

Also, it's sad to see some voices getting banned just bacause they aren't ProSONY most of the time.

5 up, 7 down

jimmyhandsome
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:45:11 PM

Same happened to my 360: 2 RROD, $0 spent replacing both systems. Each time they extend the warranty another 3 years too.

4 up, 1 down

Clamedeus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:55:10 PM

I've had that problem with my PS2 as well, never needed to send it in. All I had to do was clean out the PS2 of dust or clean the lens and bingo, was working brand spanking new.

Before I did that it was barely reading the discs and was running slow and suddenly you would get the "Disc Read Error" Once I cleaned it out it ran fast like new. It should work unless the lens or laser was broken.

0 up, 0 down

CheddarClyde
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:08:06 PM

Multiplatform sales vary on each console based on type. Shooters in general sell better on the 360 while fighting games (MvC3, Mortal Kombat, etc.) tend to sell better on the PS3. I don't have figures on hand, but I think hack-n-slash games like Dante's Inferno and Devil May Cry 4 sell better on the PS3 as well.

From my understanding of how Microsoft's Replacement Plan worked when the RRoD problem was in full swing, you'd call them to request a replacement console, they'd send you the packing materials and once they got your defected system they would send you a new one. Based on articles I've read about the procedure and what some of my die-hard 360 friends have told me, the whole process takes four to six weeks. That's a long time to go without gaming and I have to wonder did Microsoft reimburse gamers for those lost hours on XBox Live? Plus, did you always get a brand new system as a replacement or was it a reburb with the same issues... or a new one with the same issues?

For the record, Nintendo still makes the most reliable consoles period. I have a SNES that I bought 20 years ago and it is still kicking. I use to have to flip my PS1 over to play games and getting my PS2 to read CD-based games was a pain in the rear so Sony has much to answer for as well.

2 up, 1 down

Ignitus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:09:59 PM

The Read disc error was a know defect in a batch of PS2 and a class action suit was filed in the US. SONY never wanted to aknowledge the problem but settled the class action.

But because I don't live in the US I had to spend $$$ to get a new PS2. :(

Last edited by Ignitus on 8/24/2011 5:12:53 PM

0 up, 1 down

Ignitus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:19:39 PM

Cheddar, in my experience, my both replacements came in 4-5 busines DAYS and MS even gave me a live gold card for the inconvenience.

As for are they new or refurb?. They looked new to me but I don't know for sure. Either case, they worked perfectly and if they fail MS replaces them for free. I'm very satisfied with that customer service and I would by another product from them.

4 up, 4 down

jimmyhandsome
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:20:55 PM

@Chedda

The first time they were super quick and sent me a refurbished one (took like 2-3 weeks) and they gave me a free month of XBL.

Second time they tried to fix it but ended up having to give me a brand new console and it took 4 weeks. I complained and they gave me a month of XBL and Project Gotham Racing 3 for free. It pays to be a pain in the ass sometimes.

6 up, 0 down

Clamedeus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:34:04 PM

The Disc Read Error was easily fixed, I never had to send it back to Sony at all. And it's still running strong as well as my PS1.

It was never a big issue for me and others I knew.

4 up, 1 down

maxpontiac
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 9:17:39 AM

Not for me it wasn't. I went through 5 360's. Yes FIVE!

On my 360 consoles, the first two were RROD's. During that time, I decided to get a standby console. After 3 hours of playing (over the course of two days) my second one went RROD on me.

By this time, I was ticked off, but willing to stay with MS because of zero out of pocket costs. As luck would have it, my first console broke again two months later, but this time, it was some error code that bricked the console.

I was expecting MS to take care of me, but they actually demanded that I pay $100 to repair it. I fought to the point in where they sent me a "new" one. I thought I was finally set. Foolish me. My old friend RROD returned to my "new console". MS repaired for me.

About one week after my replacement console came in, I was in the bedroom with my wife and we were watching a DVD. My "standby" console bricked on me in the middle of our movie. I immediately called MS, told them about my problems, got the same song and dance about me having to pay to fix this one, etc. I told them no.

Needless to say, once I cancelled my two Live subscriptions, they were willing to budge. Unfortunately for them, I was long past that point.

MS lost me as customer for good.

PS - Ignitus; If you don't like this site move on. Thank you.

1 up, 4 down

tes37
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 5:12:04 PM

People aren't banned for the reason you stated Ignitus, they should be though. You can't just say anything you please. Some people I see disagreeing with Ben, do so with an insulting tone to their words instead of simply saying why they feel different. This is a great community and everyone is treated fairly.

Say something stupid and any number of people will call you out on it.

0 up, 0 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 6:40:32 PM

Nobody is ever banned for that reason, Ignitus. They're banned for breaking policy, and that's it.

1 up, 1 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 4:42:42 PM
Reply

I cant remember who mentioned it earlier or said this in a different way but Microsoft is doing a helluva a job swindling people. Since this gen started people have been falling one by one for the okie doak

5 up, 2 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:27:24 PM

Yeah, so "tired."

No offense intended, but point me in the direction of the last article where I even mentioned Microsoft. I'll wait. You'll have to go back in the archives, and it'll take a while.

Pretty sick of people thinking I attack MS all the time when I write about two articles in a freakin' year where I even mention MS or the 360. Actually, there's far more evidence of me SUPPORTING the 360 and its games. But of course, that doesn't get any attention at N4G or other community crapholes.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/24/2011 5:29:00 PM

10 up, 4 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:02:57 PM

Ben's right, us in the comments section often bring up the implications of his articles regarding MS. We do this not because we are blind fanboys, but because we simply do not understand, given what PS3 has going for it, the bizarre landscape that gaming has become this generation. We are trying to understand how a public that was once sensible has gone batsh*t crazy. As this site sometimes follows our lead from behind, it occasionally brings up that crazy culture.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 8/24/2011 6:04:40 PM

5 up, 2 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:46:45 PM

I can't understand it either.

To be honest, I think it's got something to do with Live, Cross Game chat and peer pressure to play with friends. 360 players are generally most vocal about getting other people to play online with them.

However, regardless of console sales, Halo is practically the only Microsoft owned AAA title, so of course it's gonna do better on its own!! What else do 360 owners have to play that PS3 players don't have? Gears, Fable and Forza. 4 exclusive titles...

Kinda feel sorry for MS right now.... Nah!! They had it coming when 360's worldwide red ringed.

1 up, 1 down

SoulController
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:00:22 PM

@world Amen! MS has got to be breaking some of these gaming sites off with cash & swaying a lot of public opinion. It is just completely bizarre

2 up, 0 down

matt99
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:24:34 PM

The last article I remember Ben writing about MS was when he was praising Alan Wake. And before that I think it was when he did an article about the best games not on the ps3 or something along those lines.

Besides I don't see how he's wrong in writing this article on a gaming site...

3 up, 0 down

maxpontiac
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 9:20:04 AM

I wouldn't apologize. People are too sensitive, Ben.

If you don't like the topic's title, avoid the thread.

Simple.

1 up, 4 down

DarthSayver21
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 5:10:38 PM
Reply

Those are some fighting words...lol

2 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:41:31 PM
Reply

Ben, I'm still on my first first 360 and it's been going nearly 2 years strong without a problem. (knock on wood) It's the old big white 60GB model too.

Anyhoo, first thing that came to mind in sales numbers for 360 consoles and 360 titles was the actual lack of exclusives, as you mentioned towards the end.

The fact that MS only has 4 big exclusive franchises to keep them afloat (Halo, Gears, Forza and Fable), it is therefore not surprising to see them sell really well since there isn't much else for 360 owners to choose from.

As soon as Sony bring out the PS4 with social networking capabilities that rival or exceed the current Xbox Live (hopefully with enough RAM to support cross-game chat this time) I see many people jumping the bandwagon from MS to Sony, cos Sony has the games. Of course, there are hardcore 360 fans who are completely unreasonable, so I'm happy for them to stay on their MS bandwagon.

I just can't wait for the day that Halo becomes milked for all its worth and unpopular, cos the day that happens, MS is screwed. People are becoming aware of this with CoD, but it might be another year or two before sales plummet completely.

Apart from some excellent exclusives (Lost Odyssey, Gears of War, Alan Wake, Fable 2) I hardly play my 360. Mostly just to play with friends online, but even then I get bored of shooting the same people over and over again, so I put on some Motorstorm, Littlebig Planet or Singstar and invite some other friends round who aren't massive 360 fans.

As for actual 360 console sales numbers, look no further than the number of people with Live Gold accounts that are now active. Around 35 million last time I checked. So I'm estimating 80% of 360 owners play online, so that's about 42 million people playing 360. 10 - 12 million 360 console sales are rebuys or refurbishes for dead ones.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

With the 160GB PS3 being only $298 AUD ($199 US, based on older conversion rates) all EB's here are expecting massive sale spikes of PS3's. I even know 4 people who recently said they're gonna buy a PS3 now that it's so ridiculously cheap!!!!

Final word...

If MS don't pick up their game and get more exclusives on their side, I'm afraid they're gonna lose the console battle. Live was an excellent social networking exclusive, but with Steam, PSN and Wii U looking to catch up fast, MS has to revolutionise elsewhere to stay in the game. I guess Kinect isn't a bad start, but it's still limited compared to Move.

2 up, 1 down

LimitedVertigo
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 6:56:26 PM

I was a fool and never played Lost Odyssey when I had a 360. I'm thinking of picking up another 360 this holiday season since I'm sure there will be great deals. I'm such a pack rat, I still have my 360 box and it leads to explaining why I have a box but no system.

Are you getting a Vita?

0 up, 0 down

Ignitus
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:07:19 PM

Good thinking.

MS really needs to do something about it. It can't live on 3rd party royalties forever, can it?

And yes, Lost Oddyssey was awesome. To bad we will never get to see LOII. :(

Last edited by Ignitus on 8/24/2011 7:08:25 PM

2 up, 1 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:55:06 PM

One note about the numbers in your comment. Unless you have a good source for that number of XBL Gold accounts, you might want to double check. The last time I researched this, I found that Microsoft doesn't release subscriber numbers for XBL Gold subscriptions, only the total number of XBL subscribers (Silver and Gold added together). The 35 million number I quoted was given at a conference on a slide that included both Silver and Gold accounts. The last concrete piece of information I could find anywhere about XBL Gold numbers indicated that XBL gold numbers were less than 50% of all XBL subscriptions. I've read various analyses of this particular puzzle, and the consensus is that the number of Gold accounts is in the 15-17 million range.

1 up, 1 down

Dancemachine55
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 11:58:19 PM

Limited

Definitely getting a Vita. I think I might ask for it for my birthday next year, since it's coming out about a month or two before. Or I'll ask for money towards a Vita.

My 3DS is pretty good. Shame Ocarina of Time 3D is the only good game on it right now. Super Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 7 cannot come soon enough.

0 up, 0 down

Dancemachine55
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 12:01:07 AM

Highlander

Thanks for the extra info. I didn't pull the numbers from thin air, but unfortunately I couldn't remember the source from where I'd read or heard it. Mind you, this was over a year ago, so Gold subscription numbers may have changed significantly since then.

1 up, 1 down

Wraith
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 7:46:29 PM
Reply

Ben I agree with how your article says that some people buy another 360 because their 1st (or second,or third,etc) broke. While this is true, it is still a sale nonetheless. If people buy multiple 360's even after failures, it show a great deal how much they like the console.

4 up, 5 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:27:31 PM

No, it doesn't. It's still the same person. Microsoft didn't convince a new consumer to buy it; it's just the same person who already opted to purchase it.

8 up, 1 down

Highlander
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:57:24 PM

Wrait,

If you have a 360, and it's your 5th one (for example) you represent 5 unit sales to MS. Tell me though, how many XBL accounts does that one person have? How many Gold subscriptions? How many copies of a game will they purchase? Yep, that's right 1, not 5. One. So MS can crow about console sales figures all they like, but their actual game sales (with the obvious exception of something like Halo) are indicative of a far lower number of active consoles than the number of units sold.

7 up, 1 down

Claire C
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 9:28:41 PM

If I have 20+ games for the 360 and it RRoDs on me I'm sort of 'forced' to buy another, even if I regret ever purchasing the console to begin with.

Who likes a console that fails???

5 up, 0 down

Wraith
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 12:11:19 AM

Hmmm highlander I don't see where you XBL subscriptions and games from my post, I was only referencing hardware.

Ben, even if Microsoft didn't convince a new person to buy, it's still one more console sold.

Claire, good point, it would suck to RRoD if you had that many games...

1 up, 2 down

TubbyUrchin
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:13:25 PM
Reply

Ben, I dunno if you'll see this cause it'll be at the bottom of all the comments but I bought the Xbox 360 Elite back when they first came out, and it's still going strong. And not cause I don't play it either, it gets just as much use as my PS3 if not more from my family playing Kinect

3 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:06:38 AM

Yeah, that's not unheard of. It has a 30% fail rate, which is atrocious. But there are still an assumed 70% that last at least 5 years. It's bad because hardware should only have a 3-5% fail rate.

1 up, 1 down

sha4dowknight05
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 8:21:11 PM
Reply

Why do we care what what the numbers of microsoft's game sales??? Just microsoft fans finding another excuse to bash ps3.

3 up, 0 down

ulsterscot
Wednesday, August 24, 2011 @ 11:23:35 PM
Reply

You need an Xbox for Halo and Gears of War - (well thats the only reason I have one). Because Xbox breaks easy I buy everything else for my PC3 and sometimes PC (i only play shooters).

Give xbox kudos though - they might not be able to make a machine that last more than 6 months - but they do make a controller that fits an adult male's hand properly .....

2 up, 1 down

Wendell
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 12:37:33 AM

I have very large hands and I really, really like the DS3.

2 up, 0 down

Warrior Poet
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 12:22:27 AM
Reply

Hey Ben, I've been wondering lately - what's up with all these articles about CoD and BF3, and Xbox fans? Out of the 25-30 articles currently on the front page, two of them are reviews. I mean...I kind of wanted coverage about games, not Xbox fans.

Anyway, as a PlayStation fan, I think Microsoft has done an excellent job this generation. Sure, their systems break down, and exclusives are few and far in between, and they mostly focus on the shooter genre. But as far as sales go, they've been incredibly successful. I don't like them as a company, but their strategy does work. They make lots of appeals to the "hardcore" and those who want to be hardcore - kind of like the Sega Genesis back in the day

But think about the lack of exclusives and the fail rate...and then compare that to customer loyalty and sales figures vs the superior PS3. Something had to establish that loyalty, right?

4 up, 2 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 12:51:35 AM

WTF are you talking about? I did 200+ articles in the past month, and FOUR had anything to do with MW3/BF3 or Xbox. Four. Anything else was news-related.

Here's how the human mind works- we dismiss most of what we see if it doesn't strike a chord, so when that chord is struck, it seems like it happens all the time...because it's all we remember. It's never accurate, of course.

4 up, 3 down

Beamboom
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:44:10 AM

I know what you mean Warrior, I was of the same impression about what seemed to be an "endless stream of Final Fantasy-related articles".
It's like Ben said, once they start annoying you they just glare you in the eyes.

That being said, I would prefer if the site just ignored everything X360 altogether. A recent poll showed practically none of us owns one anyway, so it's just flame fodder.

But man, I can't believe you are really just 16, Warrior? *And* American? And literate? That's... Is that possible? ;)

Last edited by Beamboom on 8/25/2011 1:46:55 AM

4 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:09:26 AM

Home school? Private school?

0 up, 2 down

___________
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 5:06:37 AM
Reply

funny, i remember xbots saying the exact same thing during the xbox and ps2 days.
funny how one side of a coin can always pop up!
aaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, if ive learned anything this gen its sales mean jack sh*t!
when a game like FREAKING ZUMBA can be the best selling title in the UK for 6 weeks running, you really know sales mean nothing!
never did i think sales meant quality, but now im even more convinced of it.

0 up, 0 down

SirLoin of Beef
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 6:58:44 AM
Reply

"For most of the generation, Microsoft and Xbox 360 fans have continued to point to sales figures to prove their favorite system's superiority."

I am a 360 fan and the last thing you'll ever hear me say is that the 360 is better than the PS3. It has had an edge of multiplats (even though that gap is nearly nonexistent now) but the 360 can't touch the PS3's library when it comes to exclusivity.

"Do you know anyone that hasn't had a 360 die on them?"

I do. And it would be me. My launch model 360 is still humming along and the second 360 I've had for the past 2-3 years is going strong, too. Yes, I consider myself extremely lucky but there are a few of us out there who've not padded MS's sales numbers that much.

5 up, 1 down

Highlander
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 9:51:31 AM

Sadly though, you're in the minority, especially in the US.

Last edited by Highlander on 8/25/2011 9:51:38 AM

2 up, 4 down

Fane1024
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 4:35:25 AM

SirLoin,
That's why I for one am glad to have you here. You're a 360 fan and not afraid to say so, but your posts are always rational and the opposite of trolling.

0 up, 0 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:19:34 AM

Indeed. Nothing wrong with owning a 360. What gets annoying and frustrating is when fans try to say the other has no redeeming qualities.

0 up, 0 down

ImaginaryTurtle
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:00:42 AM
Reply

I am a fan of 360 and PS3. My 360 hasn't died but I've given it to my friend so that I could get the new version. I like the slimmer versions of systems so I was glad I waited to get PS3 also I'm in love with all the exclusives on the system not counting Resistance, a real let down for me. What I like about the 360 over the PS3 is the controller and the online community. I have a lot more fun playing a multiplayer game on the 360 than on the PS3 where communication from adult players seems to be scarce. Nyko Raven controller for the ps3 it's awesome. It is true that PS3 has more exclusives than 360 but that doesn't mean the exclusives on 360 are not just as good. I love them all the same, thats right... love them. Since I don't play pc games I like to consider the exclusives as games that aren't on the other consoles so DC Universe Online and Left 4 Dead 2 count to me. ~<3PS3 <3360 don't ever make me choose~

5 up, 0 down

dctravis
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:08:58 AM
Reply

It is also always forgotten the number of modded xbox 360s that have been banned. Most people when their dvd drive modded 360 gets banned will simply sell it and buy another. I know some people who have probably bought at least 5 due to this and rrod...

2 up, 1 down

Helghast
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 11:27:05 AM

I didn't even think about that. That surly would affect the numbers, at least a little bit.

1 up, 0 down

Balz
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:21:57 PM
Reply

Ever since SOCOM came out on the PS2 it has become nothing but online for me since then. I like to play co-op campaign games and multiplayer only. I bought a PS3 when SOCOM Confrontation came out and that is the only ps3 game I have "bought". I just can not stand Playstation Online. That is why some people are 360 "fanboys". This is the second straight console where they got online right.

I have friends that absolutely love PS3, but buy multi-platform games on 360 because LIVE is better online then PO. I should have more PS3 games by now but all the games I have wanted were delayed or scratched.

Wonder how many thumbs down I will get? I don't think the exclusives for PS3 are all that great. Twisted Metal can not come out fast enough though. Thought I wanted FFXIV for PS3, but will they ever fix that.

3 up, 0 down

Deleted User
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 1:30:38 PM

So you created an account simply to collect some thumbs down?

Basically you just admitted you're a troll without using the word.

1 up, 2 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 11:41:13 AM

What sort of issues do you run into with PSN? I don't have any issues with online play, except for CoD issues. But everyone has CoD online issues.

0 up, 0 down

fargradius
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 2:57:30 PM
Reply

I guess these are the numbers that caused the 360 to be pulled out of Japan!

1 up, 0 down

TheRealBOBDOLE
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 3:04:26 PM
Reply

I registered just so i could respond. lol. Not to start a fight or anything, but you brought up the failure rate, and said that it skews the numbers. This is absolutely false, and seems a bit ridiculous that you wouldn't think this through. Your article is skewed. Let me explain:

You are suggesting that if a customer's console dies, and they replace it, that it shouldn't be counted. Think about that statement for a while. A customers console DIED. Then, because they thought the console was so fantastic, they went and PAYED for a new one. All that scenario does is reinforce how GOOD the console is, that someone is willing to buy a whole new one just to use it.

Also, i personally own both consoles, and when dealing with Microsft, have had spectacular customer service for repair/replacement.

3 up, 4 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 3:19:06 PM

That's only one way to interpret the re-purchase. Here are a few other ways-

Maybe, just maybe, that person has plenty of 360 games they suddenly can't play. Those games don't play on anything but a 360. Maybe they don't have another system and even if they do, they've still got that 360 library. What, just throw it away? Re-buying is almost a necessity; it hardly means anything beyond that.

And another way the human mind works is that we're typically happy and satisfied with the familiar. If they had a 360 and played games on it, they're far more likely to get another one rather than try something new.

I'm sorry, but no matter how you look at it, multiple sales to one consumer - who often remains same-minded throughout the process - greatly skews sales figures, especially with a pathetic 30% failure rate.

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 8/25/2011 3:19:30 PM

5 up, 1 down

fargradius
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 3:37:21 PM

TheRealBOBDOLE, your explanation does not make any sense ... Why would a unit die? Why should the customer pay for a faulty unit? Why would those units be counted ... I have had many friends that did not get the great experience that you had. I do have both systems; I have probably 8 or 9 games for the 360 (usage 10%) and more than 50 games for the PS3 (usage 90%). I am a gamer that likes a damn good game; there are few good games on the 360 but way more on the PS3!

0 up, 0 down

TheRealBOBDOLE
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 3:13:46 PM
Reply

Hey Ben. I like your response to that guy about how the human mind works. Cuz thats exactly what you did with this article.

Some 360 fans point to sales, and so you post a false article about how all 360 fans point to sales. All because only the ones who actually did "struck a chord" with you.

4 up, 4 down

Highlander
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 4:26:23 PM

Mr Real,

The thing is, no one is arguing that the sales numbers are false. However, if a user does re-purchase more than one system to replace a dead or banned system, they still only buy one game. The video game market is about more than unit sales of the consoles.

Look at it this way, if there was a zero failure rate and MS sold 53 million units, that is 530 million potential game purchasers. On the other hand if 20-30% of the units ever sold are no longer active (for one reason or another) and some owners have repurchase multiple consoles to replace dead/banned units, that 53 million unit sales may only represent 40 million actual paying customers (possibly less). How is that aspect of things to be analyzed?

Game sales, and online attached units. Excluding obvious exclusive games like Halo on the 360 and Uncharted or GT on the PS3, and excluding Call of Duty because it's sales are too large to really analyze properly, look at multi-platform games, not just shooters, look at all of them, across the board. If the 360 truly has a large unit lead (as it should according to sales), then it stands to reason that across the board more multi-plat games would sell on the 360. But, they don't. Even as long ago as two years, both Konami and EA (might have been EA Sports, not all of EA) were indicating that the PS3 was generating more revenue for them than the 360 was.

As far back as early 2008, this was true. Look at the comparative sales of Burnout Paradise for Ps3 vs 360. PS3 lifetime is about 1.6 million (not including the PSN download version), the 360 sits at 1.25 million. Shouldn't that be the other way round based on how many 360s have sold compared to the PS3? Hey, perhaps there is something to this argument about dead 360s bulking up the unit sales numbers after all? let's look at two exclusive games that directly compare, just for fun. PS3 with GT5 and GT5 Prolog, and 360 with Forza 3 and Forza 2.

GT5 and GT5P have sold 6.4 and 4.1 million units respectively on PS3. Forza 3 and Forza 2 have sold 4.91 and 4 million copies respectively. Notice than in 2 and a half years, Forza only added 900k users, yet GT5 added 2.3 million extra gamers in the 2 and a half year gape between Prologe and GT5. Sales of Forza2 and GT5 Prolog are very similar in scale, but GT5 increase by more than 50% in sales over GT5 Prolog. Forza3 grew by less than 33%. If 360 is selling all these extra consoles, where are the game sales?

I could dig more on other games both exclusive and multi-platform, but the point is made, and has been made by others. If all you want to do is count the number of units ever sold, fine, but don't ignore the truth behind those numbers. the truth is expressed in the size of the gaming market behind the numbers. 3rd party software publishers can see the truth here. But no one wants to speak it for fear of angering Microsoft.

Last edited by Highlander on 8/25/2011 4:26:58 PM

3 up, 1 down

Blarghonk
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:40:08 PM

Exactly man. If he really felt the way he did about the sales figures he wouldn't need to create a whole freaking article that is attacking people for no reason.

This is just childish. Extremely so. I even did what he did and came out of never talking on this site because this just got to me. I have a PS3 and this irked me.

0 up, 0 down

Blarghonk
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:40:08 PM

Exactly man. If he really felt the way he did about the sales figures he wouldn't need to create a whole freaking article that is attacking people for no reason.

This is just childish. Extremely so. I even did what he did and came out of never talking on this site because this just got to me. I have a PS3 and this irked me.

0 up, 0 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:37:31 AM

Highlander just owned both of you.

2 up, 1 down

Ash33
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 4:07:18 PM
Reply

i have to point this out: i happen to know that the sales figures for consoles ARE scewed.. Gamestop counts every warrantied system as a SALE... and since a very very large number of 360 owners warranty thier systems thru gamestops console warranty plan every year,,, that adds to a whole hell of a lot of "sales"....

2 up, 0 down

Blarghonk
Thursday, August 25, 2011 @ 10:37:24 PM
Reply

This website is such a joke. The journalists are like hurt children. Aww people said the 360 is doing better. Definitely need to make an article about it to better assure yourself that yours isn't lagging behind.

Look. If you really believed that the PS3 was doing better you wouldn't have to try and reassure yourself through articles attacking others because of what they like. You'd ignore them. Like a grown-up. And move on and deal with it.

1 up, 2 down

Highlander
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 12:13:25 AM

Alternately, you could analyze the market and comment on it without resorting to calling people names and dismissing their point without even bothering to bump your brain cells together long enough to spark a thought.

2 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:38:34 AM

Sorry Blarg,
It's hard to respect your opinion when you don't read some of the other comments. Read highlander's big post a couple spots up. He's owned you.... hard.

2 up, 1 down

Underdog15
Friday, August 26, 2011 @ 9:42:00 AM
Reply

Ignore the moron's Ben. You rose a good question and voiced an accurate concern. Highlander filled in the blanks with some stats... and as it turns out, you have good reason for your concerns.

The morons disagreeing with you are just more of the frustrating individuals incapable of making their own academic assessment of the industry and putting those assessments into a well formulated, objective argument supported with facts.

Guys like Blarghonk and TheRealBOBDOLE haven't offered an ounce of statistical evidence to make me consider what they have to say over you guys.

And it's not like I haven't admitted being wrong here before.

2 up, 1 down

Jsprang
Saturday, August 27, 2011 @ 9:53:36 PM
Reply

yea that whole sales figures thing is ridiculous. when u only have 3 exclusives as compared to 15 exclusives the 3 individual ones will sell better than the 15. add up the lifetime sales of all the 360 exclusives (all 6 of em lol)then add up all the sales of the many ps3 exclusives and i can guarantee the will trump them. and people complaining about the ps3's launch price really need to look at what was offered compared to the 3shitty i mean 360. blu ray, free online play, built in HDD, and not to mention that microsoft charges u for everything. christ u cant even charge a controller without spending at least 30 dollars. i can charge my controller right off my ps3 and i dont have a big bulky battery pack on the back of mine. and the whole kinect move thing... yea kinect may have sold more but name me one good game that has come out for it. just one thats all im asking for cause i cant find one that comes to mind, meanwhile the move is making some great games even better. killzone is actually funner with the sharpshooter. all ive seen from kinect is stuff that the ps2 eyetoy could do. that was a controller free peripheral and microsoft is gonna see why sony went with a controller this time. how r u sposed to make ur player move forward without a controller? btw did anyone see that fable game that uses kinect. wow talk about gay. if thats the best they can do ur gonna see a whole lot of used kinect peripherals sittin on the shelf of gamestop. i foolishly bought into the hype of it but after 3 months of it collecting dust (like my 360 due to lack of exclusives)i took it back to gamestop and only got 40 bucks for that overpriced pos. that is seriously the worst peripheral that i have ever used. if the 360 dont get some more exclusives that i like (halo sux and gears is way overrated) that thing is going to join the kinect pos on the gamestop shelf. or maybe ill just sell it anyways before the thing rrod's me. and seriously 60 percent failure rate. good one microsuck. btw im not a sony fanboy. i happen to own damn near every console released in the last 15 years. i just think that the 360 is the worst of them all. ms fanboys talk about the price of the ps3 but if u think about it the ps3 is a way better value. i just have to buy the system and im good to go. xbox live, and the wi fi adapter f(for the old 360 $100)and all the junk u have to buy just to charge a controller. man what a rip off. i honestly dont kno why people even buy that system. at least when i pay for ps plus i get tons of free games and discounts on games and dlc. ps plus paid for itself in three weekly updates for me. way better than xbl cause the only thing they can do we cant is party chat. 60 dollars a year for party chat just isnt worth it to me

0 up, 0 down

Jsprang
Saturday, August 27, 2011 @ 9:53:42 PM
Reply

yea that whole sales figures thing is ridiculous. when u only have 3 exclusives as compared to 15 exclusives the 3 individual ones will sell better than the 15. add up the lifetime sales of all the 360 exclusives (all 6 of em lol)then add up all the sales of the many ps3 exclusives and i can guarantee the will trump them. and people complaining about the ps3's launch price really need to look at what was offered compared to the 3shitty i mean 360. blu ray, free online play, built in HDD, and not to mention that microsoft charges u for everything. christ u cant even charge a controller without spending at least 30 dollars. i can charge my controller right off my ps3 and i dont have a big bulky battery pack on the back of mine. and the whole kinect move thing... yea kinect may have sold more but name me one good game that has come out for it. just one thats all im asking for cause i cant find one that comes to mind, meanwhile the move is making some great games even better. killzone is actually funner with the sharpshooter. all ive seen from kinect is stuff that the ps2 eyetoy could do. that was a controller free peripheral and microsoft is gonna see why sony went with a controller this time. how r u sposed to make ur player move forward without a controller? btw did anyone see that fable game that uses kinect. wow talk about gay. if thats the best they can do ur gonna see a whole lot of used kinect peripherals sittin on the shelf of gamestop. i foolishly bought into the hype of it but after 3 months of it collecting dust (like my 360 due to lack of exclusives)i took it back to gamestop and only got 40 bucks for that overpriced pos. that is seriously the worst peripheral that i have ever used. if the 360 dont get some more exclusives that i like (halo sux and gears is way overrated) that thing is going to join the kinect pos on the gamestop shelf. or maybe ill just sell it anyways before the thing rrod's me. and seriously 60 percent failure rate. good one microsuck. btw im not a sony fanboy. i happen to own damn near every console released in the last 15 years. i just think that the 360 is the worst of them all. ms fanboys talk about the price of the ps3 but if u think about it the ps3 is a way better value. i just have to buy the system and im good to go. xbox live, and the wi fi adapter f(for the old 360 $100)and all the junk u have to buy just to charge a controller. man what a rip off. i honestly dont kno why people even buy that system. at least when i pay for ps plus i get tons of free games and discounts on games and dlc. ps plus paid for itself in three weekly updates for me. way better than xbl cause the only thing they can do we cant is party chat. 60 dollars a year for party chat just isnt worth it to me

0 up, 0 down

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