Time To Peruse More Rumored PS4 Specs

Snaaaake
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 10:39:07 PM
Reply

Is there a possibility of the PS4 coming loaded with SSD instead of HDD?

1 up, 0 down

Norrin Radd
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 10:55:56 PM

I think cost is the big issue there. These things are going to be pricey with little to no profit margin (I'm guessing), so no real need to include an SSD if it grants no great performance advantage to a traditional HDD, IMO.

1 up, 0 down

Cesar_ser_4
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 11:15:18 PM

SSDs wouldn't do consoles much benefit since it uses the disc rather than the HDD to start up a game. SSDs are more for OS where you have more demanding programs. Besides if we still have game installs next gen those things would be so impractical.

2 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 6:37:58 AM

Cesar: That only *used* to be true. More and more games require an install nowadays, a tendency that will only increase with the size of the games. And all those games would benefit from the speed of a SSD.

But it will not happen - cause SSD is too expensive yet. We need to replace the HD ourselves.

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/24/2013 7:09:56 AM

1 up, 0 down

___________
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 8:56:54 AM

possible, but highly unlikely.
SSDs are FAR too expensive!
cheapest SSD on the market ATM at a reasonable size , 120GB, is over 200 bucks!
if you were to buy a 500GB+ HDD which you will need for next gen games, your looking at over a grand!
SSHDD is the future, part SSD part HDD.
speed almost of a SSD, but the storage of a HDD.
i hope $ony offers a small flash storage for the OS and other software features, but for the games themselves, the files which are quite large, will have to be restricted to a SSHDD.
hopefully ps4 games will be on flash media though, thus eliminating the issue.
highly unlikely though, i havent seen any flash media cards high enough storage for ps4 games, let alone at a reasonable cost!

3 up, 1 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:15:38 PM

SSDs still suffer from wear issues, an SSD/HDD hybrid is a better way to go in the future. But at the end of the day with current consumer grade flash memory, an HDD is still your best bet.

4 up, 0 down

Beamboom
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 2:40:56 PM

The issue with the SSD wear'n'tear is not that relevant for a games console, Highlander.
Each cell can be erased around ten thousand times before they start being unreliable, and in practise that means you have to write and erase tens of gigabytes every single day for it to become unstable after some *years*.

I'd never insert a SSD as storage device in a file server, but in a gaming console? Sure.

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/24/2013 2:45:10 PM

4 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 5:31:09 PM

BeamBoom,

Any use of virtual memory that involves paging will hammer an SSD.

0 up, 2 down

Beamboom
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 1:17:54 AM

I'm sorry Highlander, but that is just a widespread tech myth. At the very least it is debatable unless you have a system that is criminally underpowered on physical memory.

A pagefile/swap disc do not get "hammered" on a modern system. And remember we talk about wear from erase&write here, not reading. The read:write ratio to a page file is like 50:1 or thereabouts.

But you never believe me so go and google it, just avoid user forums. You will see that on the contrary, serious sources *recommend* to put swap on SSD.

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 2:17:47 AM

1 up, 0 down

Geobaldi
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 2:07:41 AM

120GB SSD over $200? Sorry but that's just wrong. You can easily get one of those for around $100 or just above that. I have one in my PC just to run Windows 7 with a regular HDD for everything else. You can go to Newegg or Amazon and even see that they're cheaper then that.

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 2:13:41 AM

No, I never do believe you because it's a legitimate concern. SSDs have a finite life, there is no getting away from that. swapfiles are written and re-written with a high degree of frequency. Half decent wear leveling can help, but in the end it simply accelerates the demise of the drive. Placing small, frequently read files on an SSD for speed is a great idea, and installing the OS and frequently used apps to one is a good use, but that pagefile does better on a HDD with decent caching, or better yet, go without a swapfile and use lots more RAM.

1 up, 1 down

Beamboom
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 2:21:06 AM

Everything has a finite life, and usage of *anything* affects the life span of that object.

But instead of just insisting on being right in your traditional fashion, just google it and read for yourself. Read about the write frequency of a swap file, and life expectancy of a SSD drive used for paging.

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 2:28:52 AM

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 3:26:41 AM

*sigh*
Yes, Mr Beamboom sir. Obviously your tendency to be always right and tell everyone else they're wrong hasn't altered one jot. I'm not gonna argue with you as I have better things to do with my time - that don't include googling material I already know.

0 up, 2 down

Beamboom
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 10:31:12 AM

Funny how you don't seem to realize that by replying like that you do exactly what you accuse me of.

I'm just trying to tell you something! I don't ask you to argue, I don't even ask you to trust me. In fact I ask you not to: Look it up!

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 12:34:01 PM

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 1:25:52 PM

Funny how you don't see the irony in that - which was the point.

0 up, 2 down

Highlander
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 1:49:14 PM

Lifespan of SSDs;

this article details a thermal annealing process that raises the number of write cycles from 10K to 100M or more. Your average HDD has a mean time between failure that accommodates millions of write operations, SSDs currently do not.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/03/macronix_thermal_annealing_extends_life_of_flash_memory/

Here's a review of a Samsung consumer grade SSD from November;

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/review_samsung_ssd840_pro_and_ssd840_storage/page2.html

Note the following quote;
"The 840, on the other, hand uses the company’s 21nm Toggle three-bit per cell TLC (Triple Level Cell) NAND and is the first drive to market using this type of NAND Triple Level Cell NAND (TLC) Triple Level Cell or TLC NAND is an alternative to shrinking the NAND die to try and get a better density by increasing the number of bits per cell. Instead of using 1-bit per cell (SLC) or 2-bits per cell as in normal MLC NAND, TLC uses 3-bits per cell.
...
SLC has just two voltage levels to check, so random reads are very fast while MLC, with its four voltage levels, takes twice as long. TLC has eight voltage levels, so it takes twice as long again, so random reads take longer and, potentially, so does any programming.

But that’s not the only drawback with TLC featured in the basic SSD 840, the elephant in the room is NAND endurance. The actual P/E (program/erase) figures for TLC are not available yet, but as a ball park figure, it’s thought to somewhere between 1,000 and 5,000 cycles compared to the 5,000 – 10,000 of MLC or the 100,000 cycles of hyper expensive SLC NAND flash."

Yes, you read that correctly, between 1,000 and 5,000 cycles of life. that 100,000 cycle NAND is "hyper expensive". So, who wants to trust a device with a 1000-5000 write cycle lifetime for their game console?

Wear leveling is absolutely crucial, as is the quality of the NAND Flash memory used. Since the best is cherry picked by enterprise products and the best WLC is sold at a premium.

So, what was it you were saying about SSDs again?

Last edited by Ben Dutka PSXE on 1/25/2013 2:38:53 PM

0 up, 1 down

Beamboom
Friday, January 25, 2013 @ 3:27:11 PM

Thank you for returning to topic. Now let's dig into the juicy stuff!

In regards to the hardware, let's avoid using the cheapest *or* most expensive hardware we can find as examples, can we agree on that? We need to at least talk about the same thing.

I'd say a regular, standard, plain SSD today tackles roughly 10.000 cycles a cell. That covers the vast majority of the common, mid-priced drives out there. And I have read some interesting calculations for such a drive in regards to this much dreaded "SSD wear issue" that really puts things into perspective.

But first of all we need to talk about how relevant this is. Cause there are two factors here; One is how much write/erase a SSD can handle, the second is how much write/erase there is to speak of in the first place!

And that leads us to the crux of the matter here; The virtual memory.

I do not mean to be patronizing now, forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but a virtual memory is not simply an "extension of the physical memory", sort to speak. Many believe it is.
So the swap file is *not* subject to the same degree of read/write operations as physical ram, not by a long shot - not even the same ballpark!

No OS will assign memory addresses with a heavy read/write load over to the secondary storage unless the machine is so *choked* with work that it is about to grind to a halt.

In other words, I suspect you might be overestimating the "hammering" the swap file causes to the drive.

Then it is the question of how the system in question (the PS4) is designed. Here we talk about a very "lightweight" system, specialized for one purpose only: To run games as smooth as possible.

And that takes us to a very interesting question:

How much load is put on a pagefile on a game console system? Will most game developers even leave memory handling to the OS *at all*? I seriously doubt it!

If I had to take a guess, I'd say that I doubt that virtual memory is of much use on the PS4 - if at all. And if so, that renders this whole discussion dead cause then we are left with only very light, simple and long lasting usage of the SSD drive.

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/25/2013 5:22:07 PM

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Saturday, January 26, 2013 @ 12:14:43 AM

You can say 10,000 write cycles all you like, but that's not true in the real world. Consumer grade devices don't have that level of durability - as you can see from the review I linked to. Theya re also not cheap. I have a sale promotion in my inbox today selling a 128GB SSD for marginally less than $1 per GB. fast, low power and reliable HDDs can be had for as little as $0.20c per GB if not less. The odds of there being a sizeable SSD in a consumer electronics device instead of a HDD are very small, if for no other reason than the SSD is 4-5 times more expensive for the same capacity. Combine that with the simple fact that SSDs do not have an average of 10,000 write cycles before failure, it depends on the type of NAND memory. There is an interesting analysis of the TLC NAND cells used in the Samsung SSD I linked, it suggests that the number of write cycles before failure begin to occur is actually as low as 1000, 10% of what you claim. The same article points out that Samsung makes all the components in the drive and can therefore cherry pick the best quality parts for their own drive. Which makes you wonder how durable the memory the don't use themselves is.

At this point, FLASH memory is still to vulnerable to wearing out and too expensive compared to spinning platters.

0 up, 1 down

Beamboom
Saturday, January 26, 2013 @ 5:06:43 AM

Ok then we are stuck on the cycles discussion for now. I stand by my number on *mid priced* disks based on what I have read (I'm not just picking the number out of thin air) but I need to get back to you on that.
And regardless, I'm not sure how relevant it is in this particular discussion (SSD in a gaming console), for the reasons mentioned in my latest post.

In regards to the price there never was a discussion. SSD *is* much more expensive per GB, noone dispute that. It's not a topic. You pay extra for a dramatical increase in speed. Your choice.

That leaves us with the virtual ram. You say that it will hammer the drive. I very much doubt it will. I believe it is hardly used - if at all.

And then, if that is the case and when *all* is taken into account we got a system that is pretty light on the drive load and seems to be *perfect* for SSD (mainly read, little save) and should last you just as long as a HDD. It will only give you the benefits of a much faster drive - although at a cost.

In fact, this whole discussion about SSD reminds me a lot about the debate about how overclocking a CPU affect the lifespan of the CPU - it becomes highly theoretical cause you'll probably upgrade the CPU long before it happens anyway.

(hey is that your avatar from WKC? It looks WKC'ish!)

Last edited by Beamboom on 1/26/2013 6:14:20 AM

1 up, 0 down

wolfsinner
Saturday, January 26, 2013 @ 7:07:47 PM

Sorry to jump in on this conversation.
Beamboom, virtual memory isn't what you seem to think it is. Virtual Memory isn't just an extension of the RAM, virtual memory is an abstraction given by the OS to processes.
So swap memory and virtual memory aren't the same thing. Swap memory is a means through which virtual memory is achieved.
And swap memory is also used for caching.

When processes commute, it is impossible for you to predict for how long they'll remain in RAM, or if they're even completely loaded in RAM. So you can't really say that swap memory is hardly used. In a gaming environment though, I can assure you that it will most likely be written to quite often.
And while programmers do manage memory, the OS ultimately decides where that memory ends up, regardless of where the programmer wants it to be, that's what virtual memory is: an abstraction of a fully addressable memory space given to a process, managed by the OS.
Actually, if programmers could manage physical memory directly, that would be a security flaw, and security is a pillar of writing a good OS.

I would also like to know what a "serious source" is to you. lol

0 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 11:03:05 PM
Reply

That's kind of what I assumed they meant about the touch pad controller thing. I can't even keep up with all the tech sh*t man; not even gonna try. I'll just rely on Temjin to tell me what's better now that Highlander has gone insane.

4 up, 4 down

Cesar_ser_4
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 11:08:22 PM

he...he...he what now?

0 up, 0 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 11:53:44 PM

He had a breakdown when we tried to convince him (as a JRPG lover) to give Ni No Kuni a chance even though Namco Bandai published it. He hates Nacmo Bandai for their treatment of the WKCII online community. He wen off raving into the night and never returned.

4 up, 3 down

Cesar_ser_4
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:14:49 AM

Seems a little too extreme for someone like Highlander. But then again...

3 up, 3 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:17:37 AM

Thank you so much Worlds for making it perfectly clear why returning here would be of no purpose for me. I left because I refuse to be 'pitied' by some people who should know better than to patronize someone. I did not go off raving into the night, I simply said good bye, and stopped posting.

Returning would appear to be a pointless exercise since you're happy to demean me in my apparent absence.

As for what you just said about me, you can either apologize here and now, or screw off. I've never had a hostile word with you, so I have no idea why you feel able to write such trash about me.

8 up, 6 down

Killa Tequilla
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:19:29 AM

Yea, was wondering what happened to Highlander? So why did he get mad again?

Edit: Highalnder, returning serves a purpose. How else will I understand those specs? I used to read your posts..

I once was attacked by the PSXcommunity too :) but I didn't let that get to me.

Last edited by Killa Tequilla on 1/24/2013 12:24:21 AM

3 up, 0 down

BikerSaint
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:42:49 AM

Highlander,
Well I just wanted to say that I have always appreciated your posts & I certainly miss not seeing any of them posted here anymore.

6 up, 1 down

AcHiLLiA
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:52:14 AM

Here also, it was nice reading ur posts.
And also _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _, it's the internet, don't take all this seriously. Keeping ur personal things in order is all that matters.

Last edited by AcHiLLiA on 1/24/2013 12:58:02 AM

2 up, 1 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:03:54 AM

I obviously missed something.

10 up, 0 down

Cesar_ser_4
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:33:43 AM

Ben, I even thought about asking you if you had banned him since he disappeared without a trace.

2 up, 0 down

Dukemz_UK
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:09:57 AM

Highlander, please return. I really appreciated your informative and intelligent posts at PSXE. Adversity is part of life. Rise above it

11 up, 0 down

ZenChichiri
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 4:32:40 AM

Man I want Highlander to return as well. He's the only other person who understands my Japanese Vita game fixation and my desire to import everything. Sorry that ill words were spoken, but there are many people here that didn't cross swords with you, and would love to have you back!

7 up, 1 down

Solid Fantasy
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 7:06:26 AM

Come back Highlander! You were part of the awesome that made up this haven of a gaming site.

6 up, 1 down

CrusaderForever
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 8:31:33 AM

@Ben, me too!

Here's how I look at it. You have always been a fair poster. That is what is needed on this blog. Not sure what happened. I do know you use to post a lot which showed me you really enjoyed it. If I were you I wouldn't give up something you enjoy because of some other person that attacked you. It's the internet and it happens all the time. Look at __________ he's like the village bicycle for getting attacked. Warranted because he likes it. Anyway, I to would like to see you come back. Like I have said in the past you are really a good read.

5 up, 2 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 9:09:00 AM

I never had a hostile word toward you either Highlander, quite the contrary in fact, I have nothing to apologize for as you seem to have lost all sense of levity.

3 up, 8 down

Karosso
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 10:21:32 AM

Come on guys! Make nice!
This is a really bad time to be denied the expertise Highlander brings to this site!!!
Please come back High! We really miss your posts. Just ignore the people you have an issue with, like I do with "no name" LOL

7 up, 1 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 10:54:43 AM

hey, big guy, I apologize for my rude comment =)

8 up, 0 down

slugga_status
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 10:59:29 AM

I'm lost here too. Was wondering where Highlander was..just figured he had some life things to handle. Not the same looking at spec rumors without Highlander breaking it down completely and Temjin giving his feedback on it.

6 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 11:27:59 AM

Temjin, that's all I needed.

Worlds, when you say "X has gone insane.", "He had a breakdown" and "He wen(t) off raving into the night" about someone, you do have something to apologize for, those comments are not within any normal of levity.

For any and all who care to read this. When we post in this community/site (or any online community), the only things people know or see are our screen names, avatars and words. Words matter. They matter more in this form of interaction than most simply because they are 100% of the communication. When you have been a long standing member of a community and one or more other long standing members of the same community use words that are hurtful or insulting, they have an impact. There is an element of trust that is lost.

It's not as simple as saying "It's just the internet". I understand why people say that sometimes because with the anonymity of the Internet, that is often the case. But, here at PSXExtreme, we built a community, lots of us are long standing posters/commentators here. It's that community of long standing posters that define the tone and mood here. That's why it's not 'just' the Internet.

All that said. Today is not the best day for me to return to posting here. I have a pet (in real life) who is gravely ill, and we are not sure if she will make it. So, I will thank everyone for their kind words, apologize for being sensitive to the opinions of other community members, and leave the matter alone. Closed.

Regarding PS4 specs. 4GB of GDDR5 memory isn't bad at all, people complaining it is not enough are making me laugh since most of us work on PCs with 2GB or so of RAM. Not to mention that the Dev kits apparently have separate memory pools for system and graphics, so there is no reason why the final spec could not also have system and graphics memory. Based on the Dev kit specs and other rumors that would be something like 4GB GDDR5 system and 1GB GDDR5 (presumably) for Video.

PS4's OS footprint is only 512MB, the Durango is rumored to take a ridiculous 3GB of system RAM for it's OS. Considering Microsoft's track record, 3GB for the OS suggests it's Windows based (surprise surprise for MS making an x86 system...). Would anyone here have picked windows 8 as the core OS for a game console? I wouldn't. Durango is obviously using a unified memory architecture again with it's large 8GB pool. If that's true then I'd guess that of the 5GB left, it will be partitioned roughly 1GB for viedo and 4GB for system, which is about the same as the memory config that the PS4 will likely have.

Bulldozer isn't a bad chip, Intel stole the limelight, but even if Bulldozer isn't core for core, clock for clock as fast as i7, there are 8 cores - which is plenty fast. The APU or GPGPU or whatever you want to call this fusion helps because you have multiple GPU resources in the system as well. I have to read up on the rumored GPU for the PS4, but it seems that Sony is trying to put lots of raw power in the box.

Finally, the GPU-like compute unit that the rumored PS4 specification features could be anything. However, the optimist in me hopes that it's an enhanced version of the SPURS co-processor that Toshiba made by stripping away the PPE and cache on the CellBE to leave just the SPEs, SPE local memory and their communication bus. Toshiba sold that as a GPU and even used it on at least one model of TV and some BD or HD-DVD players. Optimistically, if that unit was inside the PS4, Sony could easily emulate the CellBE and the modern AMD/ATI GPU would be capable of emulating RSX giving you a virtualized PS3...possibly. That's what the optimist in me says...

Sorry to trouble everyone, normal service will resume once life settles down.

13 up, 3 down

telly
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:08:45 PM

Was wondering where Highlander had been... must have missed all that.

4 up, 1 down

Killa Tequilla
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:24:49 PM

Thats TheHighlander I know :)

9 up, 1 down

Simcoe
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:25:47 PM

@Highlander Glad to hear the absence is temporary, but sorry to hear about your pet.

6 up, 1 down

WorldEndsWithMe
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 2:06:44 PM

Still, peculiarities in your character had arisen. I do not know you so I cannot actually make those judgements you unfortunately took negatively but removing your avatar and name while continuing to post some uncharacteristic attitudes towards dissenting opinions was more than worrisome. I did not mean to harm, only to coax you out as I had a suspicion you had not entirely left us. In the last, at least, I'm glad I was successful no matter the damage to my reputation.

Last edited by WorldEndsWithMe on 1/24/2013 2:07:39 PM

2 up, 8 down

Clamedeus
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 5:35:35 PM

Sorry to hear about your pet Highlander, I know how that feels as well I lost a close pet to me.

I am glad you're not gone from here, you would truly be missed by me and others who appreciate your posts, and how you articulate it so people can understand it.

I hope all goes well for you friend.

2 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 5:37:43 PM

You're not scoring any points by using words like 'peculiarities' to describe my character. Real welcoming and constructive of you.

5 up, 2 down

Ben Dutka PSXE [Administrator]
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 11:37:53 PM

Highlander: I would just like to add that if you had had such difficulties with certain members, you should've come to me. I really had no idea why you left or what happened.

I think by now you know I have a vested interest in keeping our most valued members happy. And I'm very sorry about your pet; I hope everything turns out all right.

3 up, 3 down

Cesar_ser_4
Wednesday, January 23, 2013 @ 11:10:43 PM
Reply

Don't know too much about it but it seems like a bit too much for a game console, that is if Sony wants to keep prices down.

0 up, 1 down

thedaini
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:00:08 AM
Reply

I really hope those dev kit specs turn out to be true. Ever since the first set of leaked specs came out and showed the PS4 with less RAM than the next Xbox, I've been reading nothing but Xbox zombies immediately dismissing and putting down the PS4 saying the Xbox will be superior just because it has more RAM. Blind faith.

0 up, 0 down

AcHiLLiA
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:24:51 AM
Reply

Hoping for a good price point.

0 up, 0 down

wolfsinner
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:29:50 AM
Reply

While the Bulldozer was a general failure, I love the thing! The only reason it flopped was due to its very unique architectural design. It's well designed, and it is more accessible than the Cell.
This can only mean good things.
Getting games written specifically for this multi-threading beast will show its true potential, and make the PS4 shine.
I can only hope that Sony worked with AMD on reducing the heat that this thing produces, because commercial bulldozers tend to get a bit too hot, and consoles aren't exactly known for outstanding cooling ability.

I think that 8GB of RAM is a needless exaggeration. I'm almost sure we'll be seeing 4GB of ultra fast RAM (maybe GDDR5).

And I have never heard of this GPU series, but if it sports the new GCN architecture, then the PS4 has a strong chance of blowing MS out of the water this generation, again.
AMD has produced great technology these past few years, which unfortunately isn't fully/properly used on PCs due to desktop applications being inherently generic.
Still, there's no decent specific information on durango really.

Last edited by wolfsinner on 1/24/2013 12:30:56 AM

0 up, 1 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 11:28:56 AM

Bulldozer is only seen as a failure because Intel woke up and edged it out in performance. It's not like Bulldozer is a slouch in performance.

2 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 11:49:51 AM

wolfsinner ati/amd has been using the rXXX - rXXXX to refer to the project name of their R&D GPUs. This is similar to Nvidia's using NV40, gf100 etc. for their GeForce stuff.
I believe the r1000 series is part of the Radeon 7000 class of GPU's.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 1/24/2013 11:50:01 AM

1 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 11:57:23 AM

I think the Bulldozer is what the dev kits got as placeholder but I believe DF's report that it'll be the new lower voltage 'jaguar' chips. Low voltage/less heat has got to be high on a console manufacturers priority list, especially after this gen's unprecedented rrod and ylod problems.

4 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:07:56 PM

You're right Temjin, that's what I read.

6 up, 1 down

wolfsinner
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:10:58 PM

@Highlander,
If I recall correctly, when the FX-8150 came out benchmarks showed it being outperformed (or barely outperforming) by the Phenom II X4?
It's pretty bad when your new CPU (almost) gets beaten by an older architecture. That's mostly why people dubbed it a failure, I think. Correct me if my memory fails me, though.
The Bulldozer is, of course, superior. But applications aren't ready to take advantage of the architecture yet. It's normal that Intel gave it a run for its money.
If it came down to architecture-specific code, I'm not sure we'd have a clear winner (between an Ivy Bridge Hyper-Threaded CPU and a "8-core" Bulldozer, like the 8150).

@Temjin
I haven't read that DF article yet, but I'll look into it.
But it could be something very much worth considering.

0 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:18:52 PM

I can't remember the benchmarking you're referring to Wolf, but yeah, you don't want a new architecture beat by an old one...lol. Definitely architecture specific code will help. In the traditional x86 world, you are stuck with the traditional x86 world in so many ways. With a console, you are possibly more free to explore the architecture and optimize your coding to that architecture instead of being bound by 30 years of x86 history.

1 up, 1 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:00:01 PM

how's the masters program coming along, wolfsinner?

I'm getting the fun of writing my first basic shell =)

0 up, 0 down

wolfsinner
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:21:38 PM

@Temjin
It's coming along well. It's pretty tiring because I'm working on a dual degree partnership between my Portuguese university and CMU, so I have to fly to, and from, the US for certain periods of time.

I decided to take an AI path, partly due to my Math background as well (aside from CS, I have a BSc in Mathematics). Working on a thesis related to game theory. It's been a great experience overall.

Writing a shell eh? I'm guessing that's for an OS course. I loved writing a unix shell when I took mine, so much that I continued working on it after handing in my work. In general, it's a lot of fun working at a low level. While very productive, I'm not a huge fan of writing high-level code (I particularly dislike garbage collection, lol, sue me).

0 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:28:45 PM

yep, it's for an OS course and similarly I'm attracted to the low level stuff myself. School mates think I'm nuts as they love things in Java, automatic garbage collecting included. So far I've only had to free calloc'd memory from multi dimensional char arrays and I'm pretty sure linked lists in c, which has been pretty straight forward. I imagine memory leak control becomes more of a concern with the more advanced work.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 1/24/2013 3:29:37 PM

0 up, 0 down

wolfsinner
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:54:43 PM

Memory leaks are only a concern if you're not careful with how you use the heap.
In general, if you make sure that any allocated dynamic memory is freed when you don't need it, you won't have much problems. Special care should be given to data structures that are almost completely stored in the heap, and that point to other elements also stored in the heap (like trees and lists).
A process frame will scale with need, and virtual memory gives you virtual access to a 2^n addressable space so you're generally good when it comes to spatial complexity.

But you can still make some test runs with software like Valgrind to check for memory leaks during runtime.

0 up, 0 down

kraygen
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:41:38 AM
Reply

I won't mind if that's the hdd size as long as it's still interchangeable. Could be a way for them to keep cost down and I can just replace it cheap and easy.

0 up, 0 down

CrusaderForever
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 10:37:53 AM

Yes, you are correct that exactly why the WiiU came out with 8GB and 32GB WiiUs. It's easy to plug in a larger hard drive to the front USB ports and have the WiiU format it. This is just one of many ways Nintendo was able to keep their costs down. I guess Nintendo makes a profit on the WiiU if one game is purchased. I hope the PS4 is profitable after many game purchases because that means we received a really good piece of tech.

0 up, 0 down

JROD0823
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 3:29:12 AM
Reply

A 1 TB hdd MINIMUM.

0 up, 3 down

Knightzane
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 5:36:24 AM
Reply

Wow! I thought Sir Highlander was just on vacation for the holidays still. Figured he went to Japan and is still trying to force himself away. As for the specs, as long as my controller isn't turned into the monstrosity that is the 360 controller, im good. People are always saying "Oh i have big hands ps3 controller sucks" I have big hands, and i strongly prefer the ps3 controller. Hell, the wii mote for SSB was better than the 360 controller.

0 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:35:06 PM

The controller rumor seems to boil down to a rear touchpad surface on the controller. It should not alter the basic design or layout to add a touch pad to the back, as long as it doesn't need to be a large one. Personally, I want the controller layout - buttons and sticks - to remain constant. I don't want some new fangled thing I have to get used to, I just want my familiar controller layout.

3 up, 0 down

Sithis
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 7:15:42 AM
Reply

I have a question. Why would a console need 2 ethernet ports?

0 up, 0 down

Killa Tequilla
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 8:49:48 AM

Those are dev kits, the consumer consoles may differ.

0 up, 0 down

___________
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 8:53:45 AM
Reply

2.2GBs of video memory?
is that ALL!?
my freaking 13 inch netbook has more video memory than that!
and its a 400 dollar netbook, not a 10th designed to play games!
sigh, more and more time goes by, im more and more convinced developers are right.
next consoles really will be by far the smallest leap weve seen, and it really is allot more about the features.
silly me, and here i was all excited and ambitious that PC would FINALLY stop being held back by ancient hardware!
sigh, should of known it was too good to be true!

Last edited by ___________ on 1/24/2013 8:59:51 AM

1 up, 5 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:35:54 PM

2gb of graphics memory is plenty, that's enough overhead for games to churn out 1080 to sub-1080 resolutions and NOT be memory cramped for it.

other than that your netbook may be using a weenie Atom processor using ram, a system bus, that are totally gimped compared to a gaming system. It's the WHOLE picture that matters here. Chips and IO devices communicate with each other to create the whole of performance. So don't cry fire when there is none.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 1/24/2013 12:36:56 PM

6 up, 1 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:30:31 PM

You better have a link for a $400 netbook with a discrete GPU and more than 2GB of video RAM, I don't think such a beast exists. Netbooks (especially for $400 or less) all use integrated GPUs or unified memory architectures with cheap RAM. You're not comparing like with like.

7 up, 2 down

Beamboom
Saturday, January 26, 2013 @ 6:18:25 AM

2GB ram is what the current Nvidia cards come with these days - with the exception of the 690 who in effect are two cards in one. So 2GB is not bad at all and in no way is "ancient".

1 up, 0 down

Excelsior1
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 9:40:27 AM
Reply

One thing I have noticed is PC gamers are hesitant to buy AMD products anymore because they think AMD is going bankrupt in a couple of years. I don't know how true this is but my quick research into the matter shows that AMD is in some trouble.

Would Sony retain the rights to this silicon and who would manufacture the chips if something happens to AMD? Just askin,

0 up, 0 down

CrusaderForever
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 10:44:21 AM

Their partnership with Sony can only help. I don't see them going bankrupt with this PS4 contract.

3 up, 0 down

Temjin001
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 12:23:38 PM

while intel's market capital is about 8x larger than AMD, it shouldn't matter too much to gamers, unless they're being silly or ignorant. AMD is using ATX formfactors and a hardware archecture that works just fine with industry standard components, psu's, cases, 120mm fans etc.

When a gamer upgrades their existing PC it's usually for the gfx card or ram. PCI-e is on an amd mobo just as it would any intel mobo so having to swap brands wouldn't matter.

Otherwise if a person is upgrading a generational cpu or something, they'd need to repurchase a new mobo for the new socket CPU, and ram etc. At that point switching from and to or to and from amd or intel just wouldn't matter.

Last edited by Temjin001 on 1/24/2013 12:24:45 PM

1 up, 0 down

Highlander
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 1:32:08 PM

If both Sony and AMD are using AMD silicon, you could say that AMD has made a smart decision to get into volume arrangements with both major console makers (their GPU design is in the WiiU as well).

0 up, 1 down

Geobaldi
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 9:46:18 PM

Not all PC gamers steer clear of AMD products. Though it seems most prefer Intel, there are plenty who choose AMD. My last and current systems I've built, for example, were all AMD parts. It's more about preference then anything else, as each will swear whichever they use is the best. Personally I prefer AMD. Their parts being cheaper is one reason :)

2 up, 0 down

telly
Thursday, January 24, 2013 @ 2:28:06 PM
Reply

If you know me, you know I just don't know a ton about tech. My impression from reading the analyses from folks who DO know tech is that these specs are so advanced Sony is going to face an uphill battle selling this at a competitive price point. Which frankly has me REALLY excited for what this thing can do.

2 up, 2 down

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